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RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Forever Spinning Vinyl - 01-04-2020
(01-03-2020, 11:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Vinyl I'm really not trying to be an ass here but I just don't understand what you're trying to say here ? I'm not talking about Cook.I was referencing BengalsRob and the Greg Cook misunderstanding.
Quote:Are you saying the Bengals/Fans should just stick with lesser QB's and accept mediocrity ?No.
I'm saying that Mike Brown likes his shiny new toys but, like most spoiled, rich people, he doesn't take care of them and they either flame out, get injured or they want to quit. You know who was also a record setting College QB? David Klingler. Didn't Klingler get sacked 10 times in his debut?
Serious question. How many people on this board at this time last year even knew Burrows' name?
Top 10 from Jan 19 2019, Burrow not listed https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Justin-Fields-Jalen-Hurts-Tua-Tagovailoa-Trevor-Lawrence-College-football-top-quarterbacks-2019-127981869/#127981869_10
Same website on April 14th Burrows makes it at #25 https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/Trevor-Lawrence-Tua-Tagovailoa-Jalen-Hurts-college-football-quarterbacks-2019-Alabama-Oklahoma-Georgia-131124138/
In February, Bleacher Report didn't have him ranked https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2817074-projecting-cfbs-top-10-quarterback-superstars-in-2019#slide10
Doesn't make the top 15 in June on USA Today https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2019/06/05/ranking-the-10-best-quarterbacks-in-college-football/1286328001/
Athlon had him at #28 in June https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-football-starting-quarterback-rankings-2019
A month later they moved him to #14 https://athlonsports.com/college-football/college-footballs-top-25-breakout-quarterbacks-2019
Four months ago, PFF had him at #17 https://www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/cpuqw8/pff_rankings_college_starting_quarterback/
Quote:The only chance we have is to find a Tom Brady in the late rounds ?Not 6th round but Dalton and Boomer were 2nd round picks and Ken Anderson was a 3rd rounder. Joe Montana was a 3rd rounder . . . it's all a guessing game and coaching.
Quote:Lets say we find 3 stud, all pro Olinemen in the off season this year and go 8-8 with QB Snigglehopper. You think MB is gonna trade up from 17 to 1 to get Lawrence or whoever ?Nope. But I try not to attach records with QB ability.
Aaron Rodgers in 2018 - 6-9-1
25 TDs - 2 INT - 7.4 y/a - 62.3 cmp% - 4,442 yards
Aaron Rodgers in 2019 - 13-3
26 TDs - 4 INT - 7.0 y/a - 62.0 cmp% - 4,002 yards
Quote: What if we find this stud Oline and they all go down to career ending injuries, leave in free agency, decide to retire, etc.Same thing you do with every position, I guess. Draft more o-line, sign free agents.
Quote:I just don't understand how getting a possible great QB is viewed as bad ?If I knew nothing about the history of this franchise, I'd be right with you. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything that leads me to be excited about how they teach QBs. Most seem to plateau right when they get here, including Dalton.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Forever Spinning Vinyl - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 12:27 AM)Benton Wrote: Lots of good points, but, honestly, during that stretch, you probably didn't win a super bowl unless your name was Brady or Roethlisberger. And that's more about the teams than the skill of the QBs, even Peyton Manning didn't do that great with super bowls, but it wasn't because he was some overrated scrub.I completely agree. It's more about the teams than the skill of the QB. Manning lost his job before winning the Super Bowl his final year with the top ranked defense in the league. He only got it back because Osweiler was worse.
Quote:As far as this draft, I don't see a lot of reason to drop back. There's very few linebackers that get me excited, even fewer quarterbacks and no ol. I'd be fine with burrow or young, but those are going to be picks 1 & 2.Good points. People keep confusing my trade down theory with "you think Burrow sucks"
No
I think the Bengals suck and a young QB will most likely not flourish in this environment.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Benton - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 02:03 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Good points. People keep confusing my trade down theory with "you think Burrow sucks"
No
I think the Bengals suck and a young QB will most likely not flourish in this environment.
Normally I'm a fan of more picks, as the draft is a lot of guess work and a lot of luck. You can find good starters in just about every round of you do your homework or get lucky. Getting lucky is easier with more picks.
I don't hate the idea of moving back, but personally I don't think we're a ton of players away from being a good team. Our OL got better as the season went on and so did our LBers. In November I would've said we had 5-6 spots to fill with starters. Now, were down to two (linebacker and quarterback). Young wouldn't fix the linebacker issue, but Pratt was coming on and upgrading the DL will make the LBers better.
Receiver could be another spot of higher need, but it partially depends on what happens with AJ.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - reuben.ahmed - 01-04-2020
the last time we drafted qb 1st, we got carson palmer.
you don't put all your eggs in one basket, not with this piece of trash team. Imagine burow getting injured behind htis o-line, welcome to your 1st pick down the drain. imagine him never being the same, turning into a pick 6 machine, then traded to the cardinals lol.
a 2-14 team is more than 1 player away. Name 5 NFL QBs that would have taken this team to the playoffs this year. No way burrow is better than mahomes. Dalton is bad but not THAT bad. Burrow is not a savior of this organizaiton and team, but is exactly what mike brown has hypnotized you for. it's all he needs to make you pay money and watch. Considering Dalton contributed to at least 1 of those winshares, we're asking for the other QB to contribute 10+ winshares, impsosible
/40 years of no playoff wins == putting all your eggs in one basket. diversify your retirement accounts or face the wrath of the bengals fundamentals.
NOw, if we think this guy is T. Brady and we keep him for 20 years and he will win a superbowl in 1 of thos years, it's worth the risk. There will be no quick turn-around with this bungles team. we can only predict the future bsaed on historical results, and our history sucks ass lol.
mike brown's motto, draft a QB and a stud WR, have some above average RB plaly peridiocally and make the playoffs occassionally but never win a game.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Fan_in_Kettering - 01-04-2020
Many things can happen between now and April 23 which is the first night of the NFL Draft. Just keep your minds open to a bunch of possibilities.
The only question I would respectfully request you consider is this:
In the Mike Brown era, have the Cincinnati Bengals ever made a quarterback better than he was in college?
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Nicomo Cosca - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 11:47 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Many things can happen between now and April 23 which is the first night of the NFL Draft. Just keep your minds open to a bunch of possibilities.
The only question I would respectfully request you consider is this:
In the Mike Brown era, have the Cincinnati Bengals ever made a quarterback better than he was in college?
We have done pretty well with our last couple real QB picks (Palmer/Dalton). I don’t really understand the narrative that a QB is doomed if he comes here.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Joelist - 01-04-2020
As with anything decisions like trading back are dependent on circumstance.
If you get offered a real treasure trove of either picks or picks plus a legit starter in a position of need then you consider it more seriously. Something like swapping 1s and they throw in a 2 is not serious. Also you have to take into account your serious evaluation of the player you propose to take at #1.
I like Burrow, but not to the point where I would support a repeat of our notorious turning down the Saints trade offer so we could pick Akili Smith.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Fan_in_Kettering - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 11:52 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We have done pretty well with our last couple real QB picks (Palmer/Dalton). I don’t really understand the narrative that a QB is doomed if he comes here.
Andy Dalton has a winning record as a Bengal, 0.534, which comes to approximately 9-7 per season on average. That’s not good enough. What surprised me is this: Carson Palmer has a LOSING record as a Bengal! That’s unacceptable for a Heisman Trophy franchise quarterback.
I’m totally down for drafting Joe Burrow. Please understand this. I’m just asking we pump the brakes a little in terms of expectations. No single player can save a bad team, no matter how skilled he may be.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - fredtoast - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 11:47 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: In the Mike Brown era, have the Cincinnati Bengals ever made a quarterback better than he was in college?
Absolutely
Andy Dalton was a second round pick, but he outperformed most QBs taken in the first round over the last decade.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - pdub2005 - 01-04-2020
(01-02-2020, 08:33 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Yeah, how dare anybody think differently than you.
Miss on an o-lineman picked in the 20s once so never trade back again. Taking an early QB on a shit team got us two winning seasons out of eight after Palmer was drafted but it also led to Klingler and Akili. So we should just forget about that but don't forget about Billy Price?
The last first round QB drafted in the last 15 years to win a Super Bowl was drafted in 2008, Joe Flacco
1st round QBs since 2005
2019:
1. Kyler Murray
6. Daniel Jones
15 Dwayne Haskins
2018:
1. Baker Mayfield
3. Sam Darnold
7. Josh Allen
10. Josh Rosen
32. Lamar Jackson
2017:
2. Mitchel Trubisky
10. Patrick Mahomes
12. DeShaun Watson
2016:
1. Jared Goff - 1 Super Bowl loss
2. Carson Wentz - had a great partial season but it was Nick Foles that got them the Super Bowl title
26. Paxton Lynch
2015:
1. Jameis Winston
2. Marcus Mariota
2014:
3. Blake Bortles
22. Johnny Manziel
32. Teddy Bridgewater
2013:
16. EJ Manuel
2012:
1. Andrew Luck
2. Robert Griffin III
8. Ryan Tannehill
22. Brandon Weeden
2011:
1. Cam Newton - 1 Super Bowl loss
8. Jake Locker
10. Blaine Gabbert
12. Christian Ponder
2010:
1. Sam Bradford
25. Tim Tebow
2009:
1. Matthew Stafford
5. Mark Sanchez
17. Josh Freeman
2008:
3. Matt Ryan - 1 Super Bowl loss
18. Joe Flacco - 1 Super Bowl Championship
2007:
1. JaMarcus Russell
22. Brady Quinn
2006:
3. Vince Young
10. Matt Leinart
11. Jay Cutler
2005:
1. Alex Smith
24. Aaron Rodgers - 1 Super Bowl Championship
25. Jason Campbell
From 2005 to 2016, 32 first round QBs were drafted. Most of them never saw a 2nd contract with the team that drafted them.
5 Super Bowl berths by 5 different QBs.
2 Super Bowl Championships - Flacco(#18 overall) and Rodgers(#24 overall).
Both of those QBs went to good teams. Flacco always played with a great defense and would have never made the Super Bowl if not for a terrible play on a Hail Mary by a safety at the end of the Bronco playoff game. In fact, if Ray Rice doesn't take a short dump off for a 1st down on 4th and 29 against the Chargers, they wouldn't have even made the playoffs that season.
Rodgers sat for three years and then he took over a team that lost in the Championship game and went 13-3 the year before. He prepared for the Bears, Lions and Vikings and studied their rosters seven times each before he ever faced them as a starter.
More recently, Mahomes took over a team that went 9-6 before Mahomes started the final game of the season.
One loss by 11 points(@ Cowboys)
Five losses by seven points or less
Three wins by eight points or less (Mahomes 3 point win)
Seven wins by more than 8 points
All of that with a stiff like Alex Smith at QB.
1st round QBs usually do well when they move onto good teams. For some reason, 1st round QBs that move onto bad teams don't seem to last too long.
Okay man, i appreciate your line of thinking, but your formula is missing a big variable.. The ability of a team to scout. Burrow appears to be the real deal. The dude passes the eye test for just about everyone I know. Can you find great qb talent in later rounds? Sure. But i don't have confidence in the bengals doing so.
Sure not a lot of first rounders in the last 15 years have won a super bowl, but thats because 'mister once in a 1000 years Tom "da goat" brady' has been hogging a lot of those titles. But lets see about non brady SB winning QBs and ignore your 15 year rule. Peyton manning 2x, eli manning 2x, joe flacco 1x, russell wilson 1x, aaron rodgers 1x, big ben 2x, brees 1x, foles 1x (wentz played lights out that year). So 3 winners not named brady have not been drafted in the first. Oh and one of those (foles) only had a chance to play in the SB because of the first rounder who played amazing in the regular season. If foles starts the whole year, then I bet my left nut that the eagles miss the playoffs.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Nicomo Cosca - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 12:11 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Andy Dalton has a winning record as a Bengal, 0.534, which comes to approximately 9-7 per season on average. That’s not good enough. What surprised me is this: Carson Palmer has a LOSING record as a Bengal! That’s unacceptable for a Heisman Trophy franchise quarterback.
I’m totally down for drafting Joe Burrow. Please understand this. I’m just asking we pump the brakes a little in terms of expectations. No single player can save a bad team, no matter how skilled he may be.
And literally no one expects him to. But QB is a good place to start, and if he’s good enough he’ll give us a punchers chance.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - DYT_Bengal - 01-04-2020
The NFL is dominated by first round QBs and QBs that should have been taken in the first round: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nfl/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2019-best-worst-1-32/11p5evm1b6g0v1tbu8lvzo5rzq.
Let’s see Tom Brady - QB carousel to keep #1 recruit happy, Drew Brees - short, Russell Wilson - short. Everybody else in the top 10 - first round.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Nicomo Cosca - 01-04-2020
That top 10 pick at QB is looking pretty good for Buffalo right about now.
Allen is balling out.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - jason - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 07:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That top 10 pick at QB is looking pretty good for Buffalo right about now.
Allen is balling out.
He was drafted 17th by a team that made the playoffs the year before. The top 10 picks at QB from that draft haven't sniffed the playoffs.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Synric - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 07:57 PM)jason Wrote: He was drafted 17th by a team that made the playoffs the year before. The top 10 picks at QB from that draft haven't sniffed the playoffs.
Josh Allen was drafted #7 overall. Bills traded up twice to get him.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - jason - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 08:08 PM)Synric Wrote: Josh Allen was drafted #7 overall. Bills traded up twice to get him.
You're right... His number is 17... Haha.
Still; he was drafted by a playoff team.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Benton - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 07:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That top 10 pick at QB is looking pretty good for Buffalo right about now.
Allen is balling out.
Leslie Frazier is doing pretty well too though.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Nicomo Cosca - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 07:57 PM)jason Wrote: He was drafted 17th by a team that made the playoffs the year before. The top 10 picks at QB from that draft haven't sniffed the playoffs.
Umm...he was taken 7th overall.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - Nicomo Cosca - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 08:16 PM)Benton Wrote: Leslie Frazier is doing pretty well too though.
Yep. Bills look legit.
RE: The last time we traded back in the 1st... - jason - 01-04-2020
(01-04-2020, 08:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Umm...he was taken 7th overall.
Um... I said you're right. Try and keep up. Or you can quote the same post multiple times.
Again... He was drafted by a playoff team. In other words; he walked into a good situation. Kinda like the other QB in the playoffs from that draft.