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+--- Thread: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow (/thread-23932.html)
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - McC - 05-06-2020
(05-06-2020, 06:51 PM)Synric Wrote: Athlon Sports ranks LSU offensive line 20th mostly due to Run BlockingB-b-b-but...they had two guys drafted in the third round.
Pro Football Focus ranks LSU offensive line 30th mostly due to run blocking.
Football Outsides ranks LSU offensive line 64th in sack Rate and 45th in sack rate per pass downs.
No...The LSU offensive line was not very good in pass protection. It just shows you how well Joe Burrow performed under pressure.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 05-06-2020
(05-06-2020, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What are you saying "Yep" to? Not a single comment in that quote said the LSU O-line was not good as pass protection. They were actually one of the best.
Burrow had the third longest time to throw of any QB in the SEC. Most of the time that he felt pressure was when he held onto the ball longer to try and make a play downfield. That is the only way a QB who has a long time to throw can get a lot of pressure.
I am saying YEP to the facts that Holic brought up that prove your points wrong in saying that LSU had the best OL in college
cause of a Joe Moore award. When you list the best OL in college it should be the best at BOTH blocking in pass protection and
in run blocking. Burrow had time cause he knows how to read Defenses, get it right Fred, most on here are getting it right.
Burrow held on to the ball cause he planned on making a play, he would of been sacked way more if he just held onto the ball
like say AJ McCarron or something. Burrow knows how to manipulate a pocket and can run extremely well and throw on the run
extremely well.
Joe Burrow made his O-line look much better at LSU in the passing game cause of these facts.
Good run blocking O-line though for Edwards-Helaire and he was a great pass catching RB which helps out the QB and OL.
(05-06-2020, 05:18 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: What a stupid article.
Another YEP from the Nate on that one.
(05-06-2020, 06:51 PM)Synric Wrote: Athlon Sports ranks LSU offensive line 20th mostly due to Run Blocking
Pro Football Focus ranks LSU offensive line 30th mostly due to run blocking.
Football Outsides ranks LSU offensive line 64th in sack Rate and 45th in sack rate per pass downs.
No...The LSU offensive line was not very good in pass protection. It just shows you how well Joe Burrow performed under pressure.
Precisely.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - CJD - 05-07-2020
(05-06-2020, 08:38 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am saying YEP to the facts that Holic brought up that prove your points wrong in saying that LSU had the best OL in college
cause of a Joe Moore award. When you list the best OL in college it should be the best at BOTH blocking in pass protection and
in run blocking. Burrow had time cause he knows how to read Defenses, get it right Fred, most on here are getting it right.
Burrow held on to the ball cause he planned on making a play, he would of been sacked way more if he just held onto the ball
like say AJ McCarron or something. Burrow knows how to manipulate a pocket and can run extremely well and throw on the run
extremely well.
Joe Burrow made his O-line look much better at LSU in the passing game cause of these facts.
Good run blocking O-line though for Edwards-Helaire and he was a great pass catching RB which helps out the QB and OL.
LSU's offensive line was above average. They had a 3rd round Center, 3rd round RG and a 4th round LT, with a RT coming out in 2021 who will likely be drafted somewhere in the middle rounds. Then their LG was a priority UDFA as well.
There was talent on that offensive line. That's more than a lot of college QBs can claim.
Trying to dissect whether a QB makes an Oline look good or vice versa is tricky. In this case, I think it's safe to say it was a mutually beneficial relationship tied with a healthy dose of scheme (as the 5 man blocking scheme did help the sack numbers). There are plays in which I thought "Jesus Christ, Burrow has ALL DAY to throw this damn ball." and there were plays where I thought "If that was any other QB, that touchdown would have been a sack for 15 yards. It looked like no one even bothered blocking that play."
However, the acrobatics people did to compare Tua and Burrow's offensive lines in an attempt to discredit Burrow's talent were hilarious. LSU's line was fine, but Alabama's line was absurd.
Tua had 2 OTs that were top 11 picks in their respective drafts and a RG in 2018 who moved to LT in 2019 and would have likely been a first round pick had he not returned to school. They also have the #1 OT in the 2019 class (7th overall prospect) waiting in the wings to likely start somewhere along that line in 2020.
That's what I think of when I think "This QB had a line that covered up his issues." Not a bevy of 3rd and 4th round picks, but top 15 picks across the line.
People attributing Burrow's success to his Oline are just looking for a reason to be concerned.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous about how well Burrow's scrambling and evasion will transition to the NFL. Some of his greatest plays in college were ones where he juked out a DE and ran to the sideline before flinging a beauty 40 yards downfield.
I don't think he'll be able to juke NFL DEs like that. So there's a possibility Burrow takes a lot of sacks in 2020 as he learns how much more athletic NFL defenders are than college defenders. But I'm confident that he'll adjust as necessary and learn when he can scramble and when he has to just get rid of the ball.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-06-2020, 06:51 PM)Synric Wrote: Athlon Sports ranks LSU offensive line 20th mostly due to Run Blocking
Pro Football Focus ranks LSU offensive line 30th mostly due to run blocking.
Football Outsides ranks LSU offensive line 64th in sack Rate and 45th in sack rate per pass downs.
No...The LSU offensive line was not very good in pass protection. It just shows you how well Joe Burrow performed under pressure.
Josh Jones proved what a joke PFF's colleeg blocking ratings were.
Link to Atlon's rating plaease. All I ever see them do is preseason ratings.
Football Outsider sack rates were high because Burrow held on to the ball trying to make plays. We have already discussed how long he had to throw the ball.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 09:54 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: People attributing Burrow's success to his Oline are just looking for a reason to be concerned.
That is what is so funny about this thread. Not once have I even hinted that Burrow was only good because of his O-lin. All I said was that he had a very good O-line, but around here if you say anything other than "Joe Burrow won the National Championship by himself." some people go into attack mode.
It is absurd for people to claim a QB does not benefit from having a good O-loine, but that is not saying that the QB is bad. Even THE BEST QBS IN NFL HISTORY performed better behind a good offensive line. And it is absurd to claim that LSU did not have a very good offensive line when so many former players and NFL scouts think that they did.
People can squeal all they want about how "people here" get it, but I just posted quotes from former All-Pro offensive lineman Randy Cross saying that the LSU O-line was very good at pass blocking. And he is not obsessed with building an altar to Joe Burrow so I think his opinion is a little less biased.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - CJD - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is what is so funny about this thread. Not once have I even hinted that Burrow was only good because of his O-lin. All I said was that he had a very good O-line, but around here if you say anything other than "Joe Burrow won the National Championship by himself." some people go into attack mode.
It is absurd for people to claim a QB does not benefit from having a good O-loine, but that is not saying that the QB is bad. Even THE BEST QBS IN NFL HISTORY performed better behind a good offensive line. And it is absurd to claim that LSU did not have a very good offensive line when so many former players and NFL scouts think that they did.
People can squeal all they want about how "people here" get it, but I just posted quotes from former All-Pro offensive lineman Randy Cross saying that the LSU O-line was very good at pass blocking. And he is not obsessed with building an altar to Joe Burrow so I think his opinion is a little less biased.
My post was not intended to attack you or what you said. I'm sorry if that is what it seemed like I was doing.
I was more referencing the people comparing Alabama's and LSU's Olines and acting like they were equivalently talented as a means to lift Tua to Burrow's level. Not necessarily here, but more on a national pundit and fan level. You saw that commentary from Dolphins fans a lot.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Nicomo Cosca - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is what is so funny about this thread. Not once have I even hinted that Burrow was only good because of his O-lin. All I said was that he had a very good O-line, but around here if you say anything other than "Joe Burrow won the National Championship by himself." some people go into attack mode.
This is not even close to being true. Everyone here knows how good Burrow’s weapons were. Jefferson went in the 1st round, so did CEH, and Chase will be a 1st round pick next year. People just disagree that the LSU OL was the best in college football (or even the SEC). They weren’t.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:46 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: People just disagree that the LSU OL was the best in college football (or even the SEC). They weren’t.
Well when people here disagree with a former All Pro offensive lineman like Randy Cross then I say the people here are wrong.
Since you are such an expert then tell me exactly how many college teams had a better O-line than LSU last year.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - McC - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:09 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Josh Jones proved what a joke PFF's colleeg blocking ratings were.
Link to Atlon's rating plaease. All I ever see them do is preseason ratings.
Football Outsider sack rates were high because Burrow held on to the ball trying to make plays. We have already discussed how long he had to throw the ball.
Fred is a great lover of stats and ratings...unless he disagrees with them.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 11:04 AM)McC Wrote: Fred is a great lover of stats and ratings...unless he disagrees with them.
I have never been a fan of PFF ratings. Everyone knows that. Even when PFF claimed dalton was better in 2018 than 2015 I was not stupid enough to try and use that to defend Andy.
All I am asking is to see the Atelon rankings because I nthought they were always doen preseason.
And it is a fact that many QBs have higher sack numbers because they hold ontpo the ball longer. That is why it is interesting to look at new stats like "time to throw" to judge pass protection instead of just sacks and pressures.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Nicomo Cosca - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Well when people here disagree with a former All Pro offensive lineman like Randy Cross then I say the people here are wrong.
Since you are such an expert then tell me exactly how many college teams had a better O-line than LSU last year.
Two in the SEC alone Alabama and Georgia. Also, weren’t you just called out on the “expert” bs? It’s super annoying.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - bengalfan74 - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 10:46 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This is not even close to being true. Everyone here knows how good Burrow’s weapons were. Jefferson went in the 1st round, so did CEH, and Chase will be a 1st round pick next year. People just disagree that the LSU OL was the best in college football (or even the SEC). They weren’t.
Yep
I don't have their actual rankings (fwiw) but their Oline were closer to middle of the road than the top tier unit Fred is
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 11:13 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Also, weren’t you just called out on the “expert” bs?
By someone trying to claim that third round picks were not good players in college.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Nicomo Cosca - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 11:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never been a fan of PFF ratings. Everyone knows that. Even when PFF claimed dalton was better in 2018 than 2015 I was not stupid enough to try and use that to defend Andy.
All I am asking is to see the Atelon rankings because I nthought they were always doen preseason.
And it is a fact that many QBs have higher sack numbers because they hold ontpo the ball longer. That is why it is interesting to look at new stats like "time to throw" to judge pass protection instead of just sacks and pressures.
I’ve seen you bring this up many times, but I seem to remember you claiming it was 2016 instead of 2018...
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 11:13 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Two in the SEC alone Alabama and Georgia. Also, weren’t you just called out on the “expert” bs? It’s super annoying.
LSU had three O-linemen who were either first or second team All-SEC. Georgia only had two.
Alabama had a good O-line, but not as good as LSU's.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 11:17 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’ve seen you bring this up many times, but I seem to remember you claiming it was 2016 instead of 2018...
I'll pull up the numbers later.
The all-knowing, all-powerful PFF claimed Dalton was better in 2018 than 2015.....(just don't look behind the curtain)
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Nicomo Cosca - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 11:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: LSU had three O-linemen who were either first or second team All-SEC. Georgia only had two.
Alabama had a good O-line, but not as good as LSU's.
Georgia and Alabama both had players from their OL go in the top 10, and Georgia had 2 in the 1st round.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 09:54 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: LSU's offensive line was above average. They had a 3rd round Center, 3rd round RG and a 4th round LT, with a RT coming out in 2021 who will likely be drafted somewhere in the middle rounds. Then their LG was a priority UDFA as well.
There was talent on that offensive line. That's more than a lot of college QBs can claim.
Trying to dissect whether a QB makes an Oline look good or vice versa is tricky. In this case, I think it's safe to say it was a mutually beneficial relationship tied with a healthy dose of scheme (as the 5 man blocking scheme did help the sack numbers). There are plays in which I thought "Jesus Christ, Burrow has ALL DAY to throw this damn ball." and there were plays where I thought "If that was any other QB, that touchdown would have been a sack for 15 yards. It looked like no one even bothered blocking that play."
However, the acrobatics people did to compare Tua and Burrow's offensive lines in an attempt to discredit Burrow's talent were hilarious. LSU's line was fine, but Alabama's line was absurd.
Tua had 2 OTs that were top 11 picks in their respective drafts and a RG in 2018 who moved to LT in 2019 and would have likely been a first round pick had he not returned to school. They also have the #1 OT in the 2019 class (7th overall prospect) waiting in the wings to likely start somewhere along that line in 2020.
That's what I think of when I think "This QB had a line that covered up his issues." Not a bevy of 3rd and 4th round picks, but top 15 picks across the line.
People attributing Burrow's success to his Oline are just looking for a reason to be concerned.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous about how well Burrow's scrambling and evasion will transition to the NFL. Some of his greatest plays in college were ones where he juked out a DE and ran to the sideline before flinging a beauty 40 yards downfield.
I don't think he'll be able to juke NFL DEs like that. So there's a possibility Burrow takes a lot of sacks in 2020 as he learns how much more athletic NFL defenders are than college defenders. But I'm confident that he'll adjust as necessary and learn when he can scramble and when he has to just get rid of the ball.
Great post, that is the thing, why didn't Bama win the Joe Moore award? As you note, way better O-line that was great at
both run blocking and in pass protection. Agreed on the concern with Burrow maybe not being able to get away with making
NFL defenders look like he did in college. It is an entirely different level. He will have to learn to go down more and take the
sack instead of trying to make something out of nothing I think, but who knows...
This is just another thing that makes Burrow special, imagine Burrow extending plays for us like the Pig did for all those years
for Pitt? Should be fun, just don't want to see Burrow get hurt in doing so.
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - Earendil - 05-07-2020
Why do you guys continue to engage someone who's entire shtick is to be contrary and argumentative?
RE: Where the Bengals Have Already Failed Joe Burrow - fredtoast - 05-07-2020
(05-07-2020, 01:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great post, that is the thing, why didn't Bama win the Joe Moore award? As you note, way better O-line that was great at
both run blocking and in pass protection.
Alabama's O-line did not win because the people who voted (including every current offensive line coach in Division 1/FBS) thought LSU's was better.
Wonder why they all hate Joe Burrow?