(08-05-2016, 05:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You may have a point except for the fact that those that "make up false claims" can point to most likely the most respected Statiscal analysis organization in the Nation to support their "false claims". Stupid PFF, falsely discrediting his good play.

(08-05-2016, 05:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: All you have is PFF is "faulty". And a second site that shows he is a mediocre CB.

(08-05-2016, 05:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree that Justin Smith was a fine run stopper and that not all of his tackles were made from chasing down players
and jumping on a pile. Hell that doesn't count for more than half a tackle anyway. But these are two completely different
players you are talking about here playing two completely different positions.

I think it is a bad comparison.

I watched Dre get beat lots last year and tackle players from behind. Also, i will say that he is very good at not letting
them in the endzone cause he is fast. I just gave him some more props, you happy Fred?

(08-05-2016, 06:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1) No they can't.  PFF has never said that Dre gets most of his tackles chasing down guys that beat him in coverage.





2) I have proven that PFF rankings are faulty unless you want to claim that a player who plays fewer snaps and messes up more often is the better player.

3) And FO shows that Dre is a top 32 CB.  That means he is a #1 on the average NFL team.  That is not "mediocre".

(08-02-2016, 10:26 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: McCarron was not a first round pick, he was a fourth.  I think that most people's thought process, mine included, is why not use that first round pick on someone who will contribute and fill a position of need.  Also that fact that the team is really not getting full benefit of the rookie salaries because our guy sits the bench and is only starting to produce by the time their extension comes up.

(08-05-2016, 06:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. Why would anyone want to pimp that? And how do you know it was Dre making the tackle? 

(08-05-2016, 06:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 2. No you have only given one side of the equation, in a feeble attempt to discredit a highly regarded statistical site . Do they also reward good plays?

(08-05-2016, 06:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3. Link to them listing Dre as a top 32 CB in the NFL

(08-05-2016, 06:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1) I have no idea what you mean.  the "false claims" I was talking about was that Dre only had a lot of tackles because he got beat all the time and ran down the guys who beta him.



2) No one respects PFF player rankings.  They used to post some useful "objective stats", but they don't do that anymore.  Their rankings a joke to people who understand how they are calculated.


3) #18 in yards allowed per target
#19 to #24 in completion percentage allowed
#32 in success rate

They don't give an overall ranking, but based on those stats, but it is clear that Dre is a top 32 CB in coverage.  His tackling is poor, but he is still not in the bottom 20 in average YAC allowed.

Now show your link to them saying that he is just "mediocre".

(08-05-2016, 07:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: 3. So no link to them naming him a top 32 CB in the NFL. 

(08-05-2016, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No, but links showing that he was top 32 in all the coverage stats.  

So how do you explain your claim that they said he was just "mediocre"?

(08-05-2016, 07:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who the hell said that was all the coverage stats?

Are passes defended a coverage stat, are interceptions a coverage stat? 

(08-05-2016, 07:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre was 19th in passes defended.

Thanks for reminding me.

(08-05-2016, 07:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How about Defensive holding, Pass Interference, illegal contact penalties, illegal use of hands (Dre had 12)? Matter of fact he had the 4th most penalties of any player in the NFL and was flagged the 2nd most:
http://www.nflpenalties.com/all-players.php?year=2015
Did FO consider all this when they named him top 32?

(08-05-2016, 07:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Any thoughts on the  INTs ?

(08-05-2016, 07:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre has 13 penalties and 4 of them did not involve coverage (taunting, facemask, illegal block above the waist, unnecessary roughness)

BTW 5 of the top 8 CBs in penalties were Pro Bowl players and two were All-Pro

2nd Aquib Talib....Pro Bowl last 3 straight years
5th Richard Sherman...First Team All Pro 3 times.  Pro Bowl last 4 straight years.
5th Marcus Peters....Pro Bowl this year.
7th Josh Norman.... First Team All Pro this year
7th Vontae Davis... Pro Bowl last two years

(08-05-2016, 09:28 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: This thread reminded me of the classic quote from Vin Scully - "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination".

(08-05-2016, 09:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So by Fred Logic Penalties are a good thing. I think you tried this before and we found it just as amusing then. 

Here's the deal:

Dre Kirkpatrick is average in pass coverage
Dre Kirkpatrick is poor in run support
Dre Kirkpatrick in the worst in the league at creating turnovers
Dre Kirkpatrick is the worst CB in the NFL in penalties committed
PFF rates him as the 3rd worst CB in the NFL (of those that qualified)

Yet somehow this leaves Fred Toast to assert he is a top 20 (amended to top 32 once even he saw how silly that was) in the NFL. 

I put him currently as mediocre (of ordinary quality; neither bad or good). 

One of us is right, the other is just trying real hard.  We'll let folks decide. 

(08-05-2016, 09:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Here's the deal:

Dre Kirkpatrick is average in pass coverage

(08-03-2016, 08:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: "Legit" meaning actually based on statistical analysis instead of "opinion" or PFF's highly flawed ranking system.

(08-07-2016, 09:38 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You simply don't have any credentials that give your opinion any weight.

(08-07-2016, 12:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: F.O. manipulates stats every bit as much as PFF. Your only "go to" is something about fewer games and more mistakes (whatever you consider mistakes). While you fail to answer do they also consider the good plays?

(08-05-2016, 09:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Totally agree.  That's why I found the title of the thread amusing. Folks can make a stat say anything they want it to. IMO Dre's performance to date has been overall poor with a few glimpses of hope. I hope it clicks this year, but to date I cannot consider him one of the better CBs in the NFL. His career has pretty much been equal to Morris Claiborne's to date.