(01-12-2017, 02:30 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: That is a fair question. Here is an excerpt from an SI article - 

http://www.si.com/nfl/2016/12/20/nfl-quarterback-situation-supporting-cast-rankings

"The offensive line, which is usually one of the best in the league, has taken a huge step back, and that’s trickled down to everything else. The defense is getting older and is no longer capable of holding opponents down. And losing A.J. Green to injury in the middle of the season has been a big problem.

QBR ranking: 17. MV-QB ranking: 17. Without a good supporting cast, Andy Dalton is average. Which is what most of us thought."


There is mention of the O-line regressing and that having a negative effect on everything else. The point is many (outside of a few loyalist here) view Dalton as a product of his surroundings. 


He will do well when everything is in place...the problem is that almost never happens in the NFL over the course of  a full season. He does not elevate the players around him...in effect he played to the level of his supporting cast. In other words he is capable of accomplishing what any average professional at is level could do. 


Andy Dalton is like betting on the Horse in the derby that if luck would have it and all the best horses scratched or broke their legs he could beat the other half of the field. That is not a good bet. 


He lacks the skill set, leadership and will to have a bad situation and make it better. Several of you have said had a great year (for Andy Dalton) this year. How many wins did that amount to? It was a terrible year for the team. Andy needed to be a gunslinger and try to hit big plays and take risks. Instead he checked down and protected the ball, had some pretty stats that amounted to a joke of a season. 


We disagree on this apparently. I would rather have a QB thow 20+ ints trying to win in a tough year and deal with the fallout than have a guy have a good year and result in the same amount of wins. Andy did not press the team to be better...he relied on them to win the game and he just not loose it. A winner, or a leader plays with reckless abandonment in the face of a dire situation. Andy plays scared...weak leadership and it shows.


Pete Rose said what made him great was "I went to the plat to get a hit, not trying to NOT MAKE AN OUT.


Andy's mentality is the latter...average. 

(01-13-2017, 05:59 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Question for the people who say Dalton doesn't elevate the play of the people around him. If that was the case then why has practically all of the receivers that has played with Dalton had the best years of their career with him?

(01-13-2017, 12:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

(01-13-2017, 08:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

(01-13-2017, 01:42 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Andy did not show that this year (or ever). Too many 3&7 passes that were completed for 6 yards. looks great in the completion % line and adds some fluff yards but still useless...

(01-13-2017, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Another baseless claim backed only by opinion of what you saw. The numbers tell a different story.

All throws 7-9 yards: 14.3 yards on 55 completions
On 3rd and 4+: 13.5 yards on 72 completions
On 3rd and 7-9 (the exact throws you mention): a whopping 17.0 yards on 17 completions

Next.

(01-13-2017, 12:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

(01-13-2017, 02:20 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I am not grasping what you presented. Do you have a link to these stats so we can get the entire picture.
Are your saying we only had 17 opportunities the entire year at 3rd & 7-9???  one a game????? In those opportunities we had the average was 17 yards? What was the longest??? Is this only the completions...not the throwaways or incompletes?

I am sure these numbers will have a lot of holes poked in them if we can see the chart you are using. 

Next.

(01-13-2017, 08:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

(01-13-2017, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. You grasp it just fine, you just don't want to admit you were wrong. You stated that Dalton completes too many passes on 3rd down that are well short of first down. Therefore the relevant stat to your point would be completions and how far Dalton's completions went on 3rd downs. I listed all of the above.

Dalton completed 17 of 34 passes on 3rd and 7-9. That would mean we had 34 such opportunities where we passed. Now is that completion % in this particular scenario impressive? Nope, but that wasn't your point.

Here's the link. Knock yourself out: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00/splits/2016/

I'm sure you'll find something else to talk about, because your point about Dalton throwing well short of the first down marker has already been disproven.

(01-13-2017, 12:59 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Case-in-point: Marvin Jones Jr. His last year as a Bengal (where he was a #2-#3 receiver), 65 catches 816 yards 4 TDs. This past year as the Lion's #1 WR with all world QB Stafford, he had 55 catches 930 yards and 4 TDs. It looks like his stats were relatively equal both years but when you consider he had fewer targets as a #2 sometimes #3 WR with the Bengals than as the #1 receiver for the Lions ... ...


As to the overall topic at hand, if you consider Dalton to simply be an average QB, then you clearly don't know much about football. If you believe Dalton to be in the 10-15 range of QBs, then you do NOT view him as average, but rather above average.

(01-13-2017, 08:57 AM)Wyche Wrote: Well.....y'all rated Philly Rivers ahead of him....21 picks AND a worse record.  Now what?

I say Andy is in the 8-13 range and that ain't bad....but ffs man....people said he needed to cut down on INTs....he does that....and now he needs to throw more picks.  The goalposts never stop moving for this guy.

(01-04-2017, 11:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Dalton needs to be about 5 higher on that list.

Andrew Luck at 5 is a joke.
Carson Palmer was terrible considering he had one of the best pass catching groups in the NFL.
Philip Rivers just threw 21 interceptions and had the 2nd lowest completion % of his career. Maybe his age caught up to him.
Jameis Winston wasn't very impressive.
Cam Newton was TURRIBLE.

I'd currently put Dalton in front of those 5.

- - - - - - -

Prescott and Mariota are kind of hard to rank because of how ridiculously good their run games were. (2nd and 3rd in rushing, respectively) I can't imagine they'd be nearly as good if they were actually relied upon and defenses didn't have to put 7-8 in the box to try to stop the run.

- - - - - - - -

12th would be roughly where I put Dalton, probably in roughly the same level as Carr/Stafford/Cousins.

(01-13-2017, 10:14 PM)jimbengals Wrote:   I don't know how they could put Dalton at 17th. Everyone still seems to be in love with Luck and what they thought he would be coming out of the draft. Palmer was horrible and would have been benched on several other NFL teams. Still cant figure out just how good Winston is and Rivers just had a horrible season to forget.

(01-13-2017, 10:14 PM)jimbengals Wrote:   I don't know how they could put Dalton at 17th. Everyone still seems to be in love with Luck and what they thought he would be coming out of the draft. Palmer was horrible and would have been benched on several other NFL teams. Still cant figure out just how good Winston is and Rivers just had a horrible season to forget.

(01-13-2017, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Another baseless claim backed only by opinion of what you saw. The numbers tell a different story.

All throws 7-9 yards: 14.3 yards on 55 completions
On 3rd and 4+: 13.5 yards on 72 completions
On 3rd and 7-9 (the exact throws you mention): a whopping 17.0 yards on 17 completions

Next.

(01-13-2017, 02:20 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I am not grasping what you presented. Do you have a link to these stats so we can get the entire picture.
Are your saying we only had 17 opportunities the entire year at 3rd & 7-9???  one a game????? In those opportunities we had the average was 17 yards? What was the longest??? Is this only the completions...not the throwaways or incompletes?

I am sure these numbers will have a lot of holes poked in them if we can see the chart you are using. 

Next.

(01-13-2017, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Lol. You grasp it just fine, you just don't want to admit you were wrong. You stated that Dalton completes too many passes on 3rd down that are well short of first down. Therefore the relevant stat to your point would be completions and how far Dalton's completions went on 3rd downs. I listed all of the above.

Dalton completed 17 of 34 passes on 3rd and 7-9. That would mean we had 34 such opportunities where we passed. Now is that completion % in this particular scenario impressive? Nope, but that wasn't your point.

Here's the link. Knock yourself out: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00/splits/2016/

I'm sure you'll find something else to talk about, because your point about Dalton throwing well short of the first down marker has already been disproven.

(01-13-2017, 03:17 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Not sure you are correct anywhere but in your mind. 

Using your link 
Andy was 11/34 in first down conversion passing on 3rd 7-9 - 32% 
(6 of his 17 completions were less than what was needed. Inflating his completion % to an impressive 50% total fluff)
on 3rd & 10 or more he was 10/52 for first downs. - 19.23%
(20 of his 30 completions were less than what was needed. Inflating his completion % to a WHOPPING 57% total fluff)

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/alex/2017/alex-season-review

This shows specifically how a QB does in 3rd down situations when passing.
Overall Andy is ranked 20th out of 34 qualifying QB's
On 3rd and short Andy is rated 18th of 34.
On 3rd and mid Andy does his best work and is rated 9th (well done) of 34.
On 3rd and long Andy is rated 29th of 34


What is it you are trying to say...because I said he is not a risk taker and does not do well pushing the ball down the field to the sticks on third and long. These are the facts to prove it.

(01-13-2017, 10:32 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Luck > Dalton
Palmer > Dalton
Winston < Dalton
Rivers > Dalton

(01-13-2017, 10:32 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Luck > Dalton
Palmer > Dalton
Winston < Dalton
Rivers > Dalton

(01-13-2017, 10:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To be fair, It's as hard to say Andy is worse than Winston and Palmer; than it is to say he is better than both.

Age matters in both equations: 

I would not trade Andy for Palmer; however, I would for Winston in a second

I wouldn't say Winston has been better than Andy to date; however, I would say Carson has,