(01-23-2017, 10:20 AM)Wyche Wrote: How about the OC and the O line coach take a little blame for the absolute shit show they put on themselves this year?  Dalton sure looked better under Hue Jackson and Jay Gruden.  Not only is Zampese a turd of coach that has to have his QBs go seek secondary help to get better as a QB coach, he's a buck passer.  Not surprising, there's never any accountability with this staff and FO.

AS for Brady, I don't know many that are in his league, then again, I don't see many o lines absolutely neutralizing Pitt's pass rush like that either. On the TD to Hogan in the back of the end zone, I literally counted 6 seconds, it might have been more.  I don't remember many times that any of our QBs have had that kind of time on many passes, let alone consistently throughout the course of the game.

(01-23-2017, 11:56 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Yep, and I couldn't stop laughing when I saw steelers and piggy complaining to the refs about holding....oh, NOW it is a penalty!  I enjoyed last night so much...

(01-23-2017, 12:06 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I could have hit Hogan for a TD on that play. If guys can't see the difference ???

Brady had a clear open pocket way more often than not. Dalton's pocket looks like the paint in a basketball game on the 3rd put back shot.

(01-23-2017, 12:13 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: This year. There have been some years in the past when our offensive line gave up very few sacks.

In those years, we couldn't cover a TE and had other glaring flaws like we couldn't run the ball.

There's always a major hole or two on this team. Fix one and another pops up.

(01-23-2017, 11:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: LOL.  The schemes are very creative and sound, but when you afford your QB that kind of time consistently throughout the entire game, people are going to get open.  They played one helluva game up front, Brady executed, and receivers and backs stepped up and made the plays.  Just a well oiled machine all around.

(01-23-2017, 11:53 AM)Wyche Wrote: LOL.  The schemes are very creative and sound, but when you afford your QB that kind of time consistently throughout the entire game, people are going to get open.  They played one helluva game up front, Brady executed, and receivers and backs stepped up and made the plays.  Just a well oiled machine all around.

(01-24-2017, 06:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Andy just replaced Tom in the pro bowl. More proof that they are basically the same.

(01-24-2017, 05:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True that Wyche. The Patriots were completely prepared for whatever the Steelers brought. Their O-line dominated
the Steelers all day long. Never seen Brady have that much time. It was the best AFC Championship game Brady has
had by far. Just shows what i thought all along. The Pats are superiorly coached and the Steelers are not that good
when playcalling is fair.

To Rhino, if Dalton had time like Brady did this game he would of been putting up MVP numbers like he did last year.

I said it.

(01-16-2017, 03:13 AM)Trademark Wrote: Tom Brady actually wins playoff games and also has rings...Get back to me when Dalton does

(01-25-2017, 12:41 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: The only place Dalton was considered to be a viable MVP candidate was on this board. He was an "aslo ran" when mentioned to round out a list...BTW there is a fourth place and a fifth place so on and so on. 

Last year (like every year) there are only two considerations...Andy was not one of them. Was he having a good season...absolutely. Was it MVP worthy...no. Would he have finished the year stronger or stayed true to form and wilted when it counted...no one knows.  

Also please tell me what QB's would not look great with the type of protections you mention. You act like only Andy would excel under those conditions...lol. The question is not what can a QB do when playing in a vacuum, it is what can he do when the shit is falling apart. Typical excuses from the Andy is a Top tier QB crowd..."if Andy had all day, the best receivers in the game, playing against only 3 guys on defense he could be a Top 5 QB!!!!"

(01-25-2017, 03:07 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Posts like this just make you sound bitter and take away from some of your more realistic posts. Since when is there something called an "MVP also-ran"? As if writers just threw in some random scrubs to round out their lists. C'mon man...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/nfl-awards-watch--cam-newton-or-tom-brady-for-nfl-mvp--224901749.html

Sure, down the stretch it looked like Newton and Brady were the front runners. That doesn't mean guys like Palmer, Dalton and Wilson weren't within striking distance. They were, and there's zero reason to believe Dalton would've inexplicably fallen apart down the stretch.

That's not me saying Dalton was a front runner for MVP, but to even be in the discussion (top 5) means he had a damn fine season and to shrug that off as not even an MVP worthy season is kinda silly. He was on pace for 4100+ yards, over 35 TDs with the 2nd best rating in the NFL on one of the top teams. Yes it was MVP "worthy" in most given years. 

As for the oline stuff, I'll reverse your question. How many QBs would look great with the blocking and situations Dalton dealt with this season? I'd say 4-5. Dalton performed how I'd expect a 10-12 (good, not elite) type of QB to perform in a poor sitch. It's the type of season Matt Ryan had last year and he arguably had better circumstamces...easily.

(01-25-2017, 03:07 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Posts like this just make you sound bitter and take away from some of your more realistic posts. Since when is there something called an "MVP also-ran"? As if writers just threw in some random scrubs to round out their lists. C'mon man...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/nfl-awards-watch--cam-newton-or-tom-brady-for-nfl-mvp--224901749.html

Sure, down the stretch it looked like Newton and Brady were the front runners. That doesn't mean guys like Palmer, Dalton and Wilson weren't within striking distance. They were, and there's zero reason to believe Dalton would've inexplicably fallen apart down the stretch.

That's not me saying Dalton was a front runner for MVP, but to even be in the discussion (top 5) means he had a damn fine season and to shrug that off as not even an MVP worthy season is kinda silly. He was on pace for 4100+ yards, over 35 TDs with the 2nd best rating in the NFL on one of the top teams. Yes it was MVP "worthy" in most given years. 

As for the oline stuff, I'll reverse your question. How many QBs would look great with the blocking and situations Dalton dealt with this season? I'd say 4-5. Dalton performed how I'd expect a 10-12 (good, not elite) type of QB to perform in a poor sitch. It's the type of season Matt Ryan had last year and he arguably had better circumstamces...easily.

(01-25-2017, 03:43 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yup...pretty much.

(01-25-2017, 11:21 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Ok turnabout is fair play...
Post thike this make people look unrealistic and desperate to give undue adulation, they devalue your more credible post. 

Here is more accurate article written at the end of the season by an actual organization that focuses on NFL strictly rather than pulling info from the AP (like Yahoo). BTW it was Newton & Palmer who battled it out for MVP as you can see. 

 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000612792/article/cam-newton-carson-palmer-top-list-of-mvp-candidates

I used the term "also ran" because if you are not in the serious part of the discussion you are not really in the discussion. You act as if there is not this type of labeling...look to the bottom of the list...there is the top 10 (including Andy...so kudos for that) then there are the "Honorable Mention"...same meaning different term. 

So to your question, Yes they throw in a bunch of names to keep fans interested in it. So people can say "my guy was a MVP candidate" sound familiar? They start the honorable mention/aslo rans at #11 it really starts wherever the relevant race for MVP ends. 

I am not sure why you and others are so sensitive to the facts about Dalton being a mid-tier QB. I can explain why I am so sensitive to comments saying he is a Top Tier QB who can take a team with holes in it to a Super Bowl. Because he can't and he works for an organization that will always have a team with holes in it...including coaching holes. 

He is not a better QB than Anderson, Boomer or Palmer and those guys could not do it. Dalton has had the most complete team for the longest time of any of those mentioned and has not even been relevant in the playoffs. All of those QB's (Dalton included) could win the Super Bowl on many of the Pats or Steelers squads of the past...that is not the point. The point is Dalton needs a better surrounding cast than any of those QB's or any of the Current TOP 5-6 playing today. The organization will not give him that surrounding cast...they never have and never will. 

I think a major disconnect for any of us is what our standards are. I think the most ardent Dalton supporters would say he consistently falls in a range from #7-25. I think the most critical of Dalton posters would say he consistently falls in the range from #7-25. The argument stems from what do you call mid-tier....only here is mid-tier precisely #16...lol!

Andy is not in the Top 20%....he is not in the Bottom 20%...he is in the middle 60%. He is mid-tier period. He does not possess the physical skills or the leadership skills to advance a team deep into the playoffs with holes and subpar coaching. I know this because he has not done it and until he does my statement is fact and anything to the contrary is hope. 

Remember this all started because the OP made an insinuation that Dalton=Brady. One that he and everyone who agreed with him have since backed off of or have deflected the discussion a different direction. 

I respect your position but feel it is flawed by the heart of a loyal fan. 

(01-25-2017, 11:21 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Ok turnabout is fair play...
Post thike this make people look unrealistic and desperate to give undue adulation, they devalue your more credible post. 

Here is more accurate article written at the end of the season by an actual organization that focuses on NFL strictly rather than pulling info from the AP (like Yahoo). BTW it was Newton & Palmer who battled it out for MVP as you can see. 

 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000612792/article/cam-newton-carson-palmer-top-list-of-mvp-candidates

I used the term "also ran" because if you are not in the serious part of the discussion you are not really in the discussion. You act as if there is not this type of labeling...look to the bottom of the list...there is the top 10 (including Andy...so kudos for that) then there are the "Honorable Mention"...same meaning different term. 

So to your question, Yes they throw in a bunch of names to keep fans interested in it. So people can say "my guy was a MVP candidate" sound familiar? They start the honorable mention/aslo rans at #11 it really starts wherever the relevant race for MVP ends. 

I am not sure why you and others are so sensitive to the facts about Dalton being a mid-tier QB. I can explain why I am so sensitive to comments saying he is a Top Tier QB who can take a team with holes in it to a Super Bowl. Because he can't and he works for an organization that will always have a team with holes in it...including coaching holes. 

He is not a better QB than Anderson, Boomer or Palmer and those guys could not do it. Dalton has had the most complete team for the longest time of any of those mentioned and has not even been relevant in the playoffs. All of those QB's (Dalton included) could win the Super Bowl on many of the Pats or Steelers squads of the past...that is not the point. The point is Dalton needs a better surrounding cast than any of those QB's or any of the Current TOP 5-6 playing today. The organization will not give him that surrounding cast...they never have and never will. 

I think a major disconnect for any of us is what our standards are. I think the most ardent Dalton supporters would say he consistently falls in a range from #7-25. I think the most critical of Dalton posters would say he consistently falls in the range from #7-25. The argument stems from what do you call mid-tier....only here is mid-tier precisely #16...lol!

Andy is not in the Top 20%....he is not in the Bottom 20%...he is in the middle 60%. He is mid-tier period. He does not possess the physical skills or the leadership skills to advance a team deep into the playoffs with holes and subpar coaching. I know this because he has not done it and until he does my statement is fact and anything to the contrary is hope. 

Remember this all started because the OP made an insinuation that Dalton=Brady. One that he and everyone who agreed with him have since backed off of or have deflected the discussion a different direction. 

I respect your position but feel it is flawed by the heart of a loyal fan. 

(01-25-2017, 12:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: I feel that is true, but I don't think the supporting cast needs to be as good as you guys claim it needs to be......unless you mean the cast of Keystone Cops we have for a coaching staff.  I mean, he was surrounded with NFL talent at TCU when he and his Horned Frogs stunned Wisconsin in the Rose Bowl.  After watching the playoffs closer than I typically do, and without a beer, I saw what it's like to have disciplined and dominating lines.  To have coaches that don't panic at the first hint of their gameplan gone awry, to see mentally tough squads that don't let a turnover or two dictate the outcome of the game, and watching linebackers actually covering tight ends.....apparently not such a novel concept after all.

Remember, Palmer looked like dog dookie here in his lone playoff game, McCarron wasn't a world beater either.  Ditch Marv and his Merry Band of Tenured Bums, hire some more scouts, and watch this roster shine.

Do you think Brady, Rodgers, Wilson, Newton, or ANY teams make it to the Super Bowl with subpar coaching?  Surely not.

PS....I don't recall ever saying Dalton=Brady, perhaps you can show me where I said that?

(01-25-2017, 11:21 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: 1. Ok turnabout is fair play...
Post thike this make people look unrealistic and desperate to give undue adulation, they devalue your more credible post. 

2. Here is more accurate article written at the end of the season by an actual organization that focuses on NFL strictly rather than pulling info from the AP (like Yahoo). BTW it was Newton & Palmer who battled it out for MVP as you can see. 

 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000612792/article/cam-newton-carson-palmer-top-list-of-mvp-candidates

3. I used the term "also ran" because if you are not in the serious part of the discussion you are not really in the discussion. You act as if there is not this type of labeling...look to the bottom of the list...there is the top 10 (including Andy...so kudos for that) then there are the "Honorable Mention"...same meaning different term. 

4. So to your question, Yes they throw in a bunch of names to keep fans interested in it. So people can say "my guy was a MVP candidate" sound familiar? They start the honorable mention/aslo rans at #11 it really starts wherever the relevant race for MVP ends. 

5. I'm not sr why you and others are so sensitive to the facts about Dalton being a mid-tier QB. I can explain why I am so sensitive to comments saying he is a Top Tier QB who can take a team with holes in it to a Super Bowl. Because he can't and he works for an organization that will always have a team with holes in it...including coaching holes. 

6. He not a better QB than Anderson, Boomer or Palmer and those guys could not do it. Dalton has had the most complete team for the longest time of any of those mentioned and has not even been relevant in the playoffs. All of those QB's (Dalton included) could win the Super Bowl on many of the Pats or Steelers squads of the past...that is not the point. The point is Dalton needs a better surrounding cast than any of those QB's or any of the Current TOP 5-6 playing today. The organization will not give him that surrounding cast...they never have and never will. 

7.  a major disconnect for any of us is what our standards are. I think the most ardent Dalton supporters would say he consistently falls in a range from #7-25. I think the most critical of Dalton posters would say he consistently falls in the range from #7-25. The argument stems from what do you call mid-tier....only here is mid-tier precisely #16...lol!

Andy is not in the Top 20%....he is not in the Bottom 20%...he is in the middle 60%. He is mid-tier period. He does not possess the physical skills or the leadership skills to advance a team deep into the playoffs with holes and subpar coaching. I know this because he has not done it and until he does my statement is fact and anything to the contrary is hope. 

8. ember this all started because the OP made an insinuation that Dalton=Brady. One that he and everyone who agreed with him have since backed off of or have deflected the discussion a different direction. 

9.respect your position but feel it is flawed by the heart of a loyal fan. 

(01-25-2017, 01:26 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Like I have said many times....he is mid-tier. Could he have lead one of the New England teams, or Steelers teams to one of their recent Super Bowls...probably. I have never said he is a liability. I do not do believe he could do what Newton, Manning, Manning, Palmer, Flacco, Ryan, Rivers and others have done with less talented teams. THE ARGUMENT IS NOT CAN HE WIN WITH A STACKED TEAM...it is does he possess the talent and leadership to win in the playoffs here? to date the FACT is no he does not.

(01-25-2017, 01:26 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Wyche did not say you said that...but to act as if it was not stated in the tread is disingenuous. It would be impossible to list 
every comment or every poster that one would like to address. This seems to be the way many disengage in the topic at hand and turn it into a fact finding mission on post. Not saying you do this but it is what happens.

To the Rose bowl comment, he was not playing against NFL talent either. So i am not sure what the point is. 

The Bengals teams of the past several years have been considered to be very talented. We all agree on this until the outcome of the season. Then when the team does dot reach its goals it is because Dalton does not have the talent he needs to succeed. How much fricking talent does this guy need?????

Does the coaching panic at the first hint of their game plan gone awry" yes
Are the players "mentally tough"? no - COUNTING DALTON  "let a turnover or two dictate the outcome of the game"


Like I have said many times....he is mid-tier. Could he have lead one of the New England teams, or Steelers teams to one of their recent Super Bowls...probably. I have never said he is a liability. I do not do believe he could do what Newton, Manning, Manning, Palmer, Flacco, Ryan, Rivers and others have done with less talented teams. THE ARGUMENT IS NOT CAN HE WIN WITH A STACKED TEAM...it is does he possess the talent and leadership to win in the playoffs here? to date the FACT is no he does not.

(01-25-2017, 01:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Who is being more realistic? The one claiming that the guy listed as a top 5 MVP candidate was an MVP candidate? Or the guy bending over backwards to explain why unworthy players were listed? Let me ask you this: What if Russell Wilson went 4-0 with 1500 yards and 15 TDs over those last 4 games? You don't feel he would've had a shot? That's all I'm saying. Dalton was being recognized for a fine season and was within striking distance of the MVP award. I'm not wrong.

2. How is an end of season article more accurate? Dalton obviously took a tumble because he missed 4 games. The more accurate article would be the one from before Dalton got injured.

3. The problem with this logic is that Dalton was rarely if ever mentioned in the "honorable mention" or 10th or worse...prior to injury. Now I see why you picked an article from after his injury.

4. I could follow your logic that "writers just threw in a bunch of names" if Dalton was ranked like 11th. He was top 5 on most lists prior to injury.

5. I'm not sensitive to anything. I actually agree with this statement lol.

6. I view Dalton as equal - if not better - than Palmer. With better coaching, I think he'd compete with Boomer and Kenny for best QB in franchise history. I refuse to blame any QB/player on this team for playoff performance while Marvin Lewis is the HC. I've actually sat and tried to see things from y'all's point of view (that Dalton is simply a choker) and I just can't bring myself to blame Dalton when 3 other QBs and the entire damn team has choked 7 times under Marv. Can't logically do it, sorry.

7. Lol...BINGO. I wholeheartedly agree that Dalton belongs in the middle 60%...not the top or bottom 20%. If you define "mid-tier" that way, I agree. There are many good-not-great QB's who would fall in that 60% though. Stafford, Flacco, Luck and Alex Smith for example.

8. I sincerely don't believe the OP was straight up saying Dalton = Brady. Yall are twisting his post to an extreme to make one side look bad. Tsk tsk. This is why we can't have good conversations on here anymore.

9. If I say one thing you believe, then believe this: I am not a damn homer. In fact, I was always considered a hater until I started sticking up for the red head. I think Marvin Lewis is a weak coach that can't get his men prepared in the playoffs to save his life. I believe his conservative fingers have been all over the offense, particularly in the playoffs. I look at Andy and I just see yet another guy that's played well in the regular season only to mysteriously choke in postseason. Under Marv, it's a long list. So this is not about Andy love for me...it's about how much I think Marv sucks and I refuse to deflect blame from him.