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RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Wes Mantooth - 09-01-2020

(09-01-2020, 11:07 PM)Synric Wrote: Its structured very similar to Derrick Henry's deal. Front loaded and a potential out in 2023 with a 4mil dead cap.

This is my last post in this thread, I promise.

In what way is this deal front loaded? (PLEASE EXPLAIN.)

The cap hits increase each year.  The signing bonus is spread evenly against this cap.  In no way is this deal front loaded in any way. A potential out years into the deal almost always carries a lesser dead cap number. None of this is unique, creative, or an example of front loading.

None of what I'm saying here is to question the structure of the deal.  But this is exactly what I'm talking about.  People talking completely out their arse.

Continue on...

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Synric - 09-01-2020

(09-01-2020, 11:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This is my last post in this thread, I promise.

In what way is this deal front loaded?  (PLEASE EXPLAIN.)

The cap hits increase each year.  The signing bonus is spread evenly against this cap.  In no way is this deal front loaded in any way.  A potential out years into the deal almost always carries a lesser dead cap number. None of this is unique, creative, or an example of front loading.

None of what I'm saying here is to question the structure of the deal.  But this is exactly what I'm talking about.  People talking completely out their arse.

Continue on...

Front loaded has nothing to do with cap hits.

It's about how much of the gaurenteed money is at the front of the contract which cuts down the dead cap hits later in the contract.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - BengalChris - 09-01-2020

Well, it's a done deal, so it doesn't much matter now if it's a good deal or a bad deal.

I thought Hart's deal was bad for the team and still do. I thought Gio was overpaid and still do. There's Kirkpatrick's contract, which I thought was overpaid and still do. But they are done and the team even had to eat some of Kirkpatrick's.

Of course, they go and lowball Whit. Many people on this site saw that as a mistake right off the bat.

But I don't think this Mixon contract is one that will hurt the team. They've got 4 years with a relatively inexpensive starting QB.

I just looked over the contracts and here's some that stood out to me.

Uzomah who makes $5.88M this year and $6.33M next season. He had 242 yards receiving last year and he started all 16 games. That's $2.43M per 100 yards.

Uzomah's backup Drew Sample had 30 yards receiving while playing in 9 games and makes 1.25M this year. That's 4.17M per 100 yards. Of course, he was rookie and he was over drafted and the coaches have no idea how to use TEs in the passing game.

Gio makes 4.66M this year and rushed for a whopping 170 yards last season - that's $2.7M per 100 yards.

Mixon rushed for 1137 yards and will make $4.3M the year. That's 378K per 100 yards. His salary in 2021 will be $10.7M which would be 941K per 100 yards. Still a bargain compared the Gio's and Uzomahs of the world.

Next season Mixon will make less than Geno, Carlos, Reader and Waynes. Mixon will be the highest paid offensive player on the team with Boyd coming in second and Burrow third. Waynes is currently slated to be the highest paid Bengal next season at $16M, yikes.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - CarolinaBengalFanGuy - 09-02-2020

Well lets just hope he's focused and blows up and makes the deal worth it. At least he got paid while he's still young and can be productive.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Nicomo Cosca - 09-02-2020

(09-02-2020, 12:00 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Well lets just hope he's focused and blows up and makes the deal worth it. At least he got paid while he's still young and can be productive.

Yeah, the fact that he’s still only 24 means we’re getting his prime years on this next contract. And I don’t think focus will be an issue. If we can put an even slightly below average OL in front of him I expect big things.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Bengalstripes9 - 09-02-2020

I'm all for it. Great move in my opinion. He's a valuable piece of our offense. He's a proven leader. He's been durable for the most part. I don't think he's played his best season yet. He'll play out this contract even if he thinks he's underpaid in 3 years. We can find a back to groom behind him in one of the upcoming drafts to make room to sign Burrow as Mixon goes elsewhere in search of a better contract.

Hope it plays out like this. Otherwise he could get injured or any scenario really. I'm happy they took a chance on a draft pick they hit out of the park.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Sled21 - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 09:03 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Of course he wanted to be here.  He just got 19.2 mil dollars in guaranteed money instead having to play on a 1.2 mil contract.

Just because these guys sign early deals that isn't a great indication that they wanted to be here more than anywhere else. 

Now if he hits free agency and there's competing offers then that tells you something.  This tells me nothing, other than that he just got paid big time.

He said prior to this deal he wanted to be here. In fact, he has stated he wants to be a Bengal his entire career and retire a Bengal. That's pretty much an indication he's happy here and wants to be here. I think the only way this deal bites us is if he gets injured, and that's a risk on any deal.

And on the homepage:

https://www.bengals.com/news/mixon-bengals-keep-it-all-in-the-family

Quote:For those eight months, Shaffer says, Mixon's marching orders were simple. Do what you have to do to keep me with the Bengals. "He loves it there," Schaffer said on this very big day for his own family out in Denver. "Joe's all about family and ever since he was drafted they've made him feel like family. That's matters to him. Joe can't tell me the name of a club in Cincinnati. Probably the only restaurant he can name in Cincinnati is Pappadeaux's. He really is a homebody. He just likes to spend time with his family."


RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Big Boss - 09-02-2020

I love Pappadeaux's. Gonna have to go there more.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - fredtoast - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 06:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   The money needed to secure him  beyond this season is how you determine the value of the contract.  


Uh, no it is not. It is the value of the contract.

He is getting paid about $9 million a year base with potential bonus money that would make it $9.6 million.  That is his value.

If his value was $12 million a year then he would make $60 million over 5 years.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Bengalpool - 09-02-2020

(09-02-2020, 08:40 AM)Big Boss Wrote: I love Pappadeaux's.  Gonna have to go there more.

Amazing restaurant.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Whatever - 09-02-2020

(09-02-2020, 08:09 AM)Sled21 Wrote: He said prior to this deal he wanted to be here. In fact, he has stated he wants to be a Bengal his entire career and retire a Bengal. That's pretty much an indication he's happy here and wants to be here. I think the only way this deal bites us is if he gets injured, and that's a risk on any deal.

And on the homepage:

https://www.bengals.com/news/mixon-bengals-keep-it-all-in-the-family

Hate to say it, but between his migraines that kept him out of practice that suddenly got better once he signed.this extension and the "I'd be happy with $8 mil/year" comments, Joe's hurting for credibility right now.

"I hope the Bengals are the highest bidders" is world's different from "I'm willing to take less to play for the Bengals.". We've had a lot of the former around here for years, not so much the latter.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Daddy-O - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 06:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This deal is no different then had they waited to sign him after the season, with a brand new 4 year 48 million dollar deal.  If that were to happen he would then be worth... 12 million a year on his new contract.

We set his market value moving forward at 12 million a year.  Period.  End of story.

I can't believe you guys argue such a simple concept.  Yes, over 5 year he makes 9.6 mil.  But the 4 years extended is new money, and reflects his current market value.  The money needed to secure him  beyond this season is how you determine the value of the contract.  The first year was already in place, which was set 3 years ago.

Who cares, you're not paying it the Bengals are and they seem pleased with the deal.

Buy your own NFL team and you can make all the decisions.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - SHRacerX - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 06:45 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: This deal is no different then had they waited to sign him after the season, with a brand new 4 year 48 million dollar deal.  If that were to happen he would then be worth... 12 million a year on his new contract.

We set his market value moving forward at 12 million a year.  Period.  End of story.

I can't believe you guys argue such a simple concept.  Yes, over 5 year he makes 9.6 mil.  But the 4 years extended is new money, and reflects his current market value.  The money needed to secure him  beyond this season is how you determine the value of the contract.  The first year was already in place, which was set 3 years ago.

I think you are in the minority here, Wes.  Your point about the 4 years extended being "new money" that reflects his "current market value" is a bit of a contradiction.  The current market value for the next four years has not been set as of yet.  It also makes sense to see how the contract is structured before jumping to more conclusions.

If that last season has a team option and can be voided without dead cap space, then you could also argue that the current deal could be viewed as one year at 1.7 million, and three years at 36 million or a 4 year deal worth roughly $38 million.  

I sincerely hope the bonus is weighted heavily to this current year of the contract so there is more cap space moving forward given the uncertainty of the team cap.  

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - SHRacerX - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 06:54 PM)pally Wrote: contract details


Wow.  This is downright outstanding work by the Bengals.  Helps with the cap moving forward while getting Joe a well-deserved bump in pay right away.  Well done, Brown Family.  

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Nicomo Cosca - 09-02-2020

Never had Pappadeaux. Gonna have to try it.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - CJD - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 06:54 PM)pally Wrote: contract details


So it's a 3 year extension with a 4th year option? That's a really good deal for the Bengals. We get his 24-27 age years, which are widely considered the peak years for a Running Back. Then, once he turns 28 in July 2024, the age at which Running Backs generally start to decline, we can choose to walk away if he's showing signs of wear and tear.

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - SHRacerX - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 08:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Mark Ingram has argubly been a better back recently, and he just signed a 5 mil per deal last season.  We're paying Mixon 2.5x the amount to stay here beyond 2020.

Fwiw, here is the tail of the tape for Mixon vs. Ingram over the last 3 years:

Rushing Yards
Mixon - 2,930
Ingram - 2,787

YPC
Mixon - 4.2
Ingram - 4.9

Rushing TD's
Mixon - 17
Ingram - 28

Receiving Yards
Mixon -870
Ingram - 833

Receiving TD's
Mixon - 4
Ingram - 6

Total Yards
Mixon - 3,800
Ingram - 3,620

Total TD's
Mixon - 21
Ingram - 34

This, IMHO, is the problem that some of us who don't like the deal have.  I think this is a good illustration of why the deal is for way too much.

I didn't mind paying Mixon more than Ingram.  I can buy easily buy into the ideas that he's played behind lesser lines, and hasn't been properly used in the passing game, and that he's been in offenses that have struggled to score.  I get all that.

But at some point production factors into contracts in this league.  So while I can accept paying him more than 50% more than Ingram at 8 mil plus, I cannot get on board with paying 2.5 times the amount.

The numbers just aren't there to support this amount.  Not to mention the absolute disasters of contracts that were handed out to David Johnson, Todd Gurley, and Leveon Bell support the idea that it's bad business to pay big money to an RB.  (Henry and McCaffery are on new deals, and Zeke is only 1 year in.  There value remains to be seen.)

Yeah, and what offensive talent has Ingram had around him?  And Joe Mixon?  Ingram has a lot less tread left on his tires, and he was mostly a split-carry guy with injury history until his huge years of 2016 and 2017, then after a disappointing injury-riddled 2018, he joins Baltimore with one of the best rushing QB threats in NFL history.  

Ingram is also entering his 10th year in the league.  This isn't even apples and oranges, this is apples and bowling balls. 

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - SHRacerX - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 08:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I also haven’t really seen it mentioned, but it’s nice that such a good player, probably top 10 at his position, wanted to be here. Along with some actual high end FA’s like Reader and Bell it’s encouraging.

Excellent point...and that desire seemed to escalate the more time he spent with Burrow and this year's squad. 

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - Sled21 - 09-02-2020

(09-02-2020, 09:19 AM)Whatever Wrote: Hate to say it, but between his migraines that kept him out of practice that suddenly got better once he signed.this extension and the "I'd be happy with $8 mil/year" comments, Joe's hurting for credibility right now.

His migraines might have been a ploy, but they could just as easily been corrected with the dental surgery he just had. There's no way to really know....

RE: Mixon's Migrane Should Be Good Now - SHRacerX - 09-02-2020

(09-01-2020, 10:35 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He gets all of his signing bonus this year.  It's to released upon signing.

What you're referring to is the cap hits of said bonus, which can be spread out at the team's discretion.

Congratulations, I'm going to bow it from this thread. I'm done debating people who don't understand how any of this works.

Wes, early on in this thread no one understood the contract details because it wasn't released.  You were pounding your first on the table (erroneously) stating the Bengals had set his value at $12 million per year and that is that.  

Once the details were made public, you could see a situation where one of the most expensive years on the contract can be voided by the club, which changed the complexion of the deal entirely.  The Bengals also wisely put a lot of the contract in the bonus so it could be paid to Joe now, but spread the cap hit out across the length of the contract.  You may not want to admit the value of paying Joe, or any RB, that kind of money and that is fine, but you need to realize that it was your early comments about the contract that most people were disagreeing with.  Now that you know all the details of the contract, if you don't agree with it....great.  That is your call.  

I, for one, think the structure of the deal is outstanding and I am ecstatic that they were able to get it done and now let's watch what happens around the league as guys like Kamara fight for their deals.

Dorothy Mantooth is still a Saint.  We are all good, bud.