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RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - BoomerFan - 03-22-2025
(03-20-2025, 04:59 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: 3T is a massive need.
There’s no inside pass rush at all.
At least Edge (and I’m not against edge at 17) has Hendrickson, Ossai and a recent first round pick in Murphy.
LB and S is based on the expectation that Stone and Pratt will be cut. But that’s more a want than a need. You don’t have to force a pick at either.
Yep. We're thinking the same thing. And while this draft may have a lot of talented Safeties, I'd list our needs right now as: OG, EDGE, 3T DT, CB, Backup Swing OT.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - THE PISTONS - 03-22-2025
(03-20-2025, 04:59 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: 3T is a massive need.
There’s no inside pass rush at all.
At least Edge (and I’m not against edge at 17) has Hendrickson, Ossai and a recent first round pick in Murphy.
LB and S is based on the expectation that Stone and Pratt will be cut. But that’s more a want than a need. You don’t have to force a pick at either.
TE is a possible need given All being out and a late round RB would make sense.
I think OT in R2 is a very real possibility. They could have them play at G and then replace Orlando Brown further down the line.
Does anyone have a list of who they’ve met with so far?
Bell is a fa at safety. Who starts next to Stone?
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - Synric - 03-22-2025
Bengals are doing alot of homework on this Linebacker class. It's probably a larger priority than Safety.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - reuben.ahmed - 03-22-2025
(03-20-2025, 05:14 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I don't really follow much leading up to the draft, but if Jim Miller and Pat Kirwin called it right, they said expect the 1st round to be mostly pass rushers, and OG's and DB's going late 2nd to 3rd round. They added a lot of the OT's this year will be projected as guards instead of tackles. Bottom line, 1st round is defensive line.
sound good to me
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 09:05 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: Yep. We're thinking the same thing. And while this draft may have a lot of talented Safeties, I'd list our needs right now as: OG, EDGE, 3T DT, CB, Backup Swing OT.
The signings of Oren Burks and Lucas Patrick look a lot like the front office signing Trent Brown last year. Signing players who won’t block a high draft pick but could also hold the fort if a draft pick wasn’t ready until after the bye.
But then you’ve got Edge and 3T where they haven’t made a single addition but have lost Hubbard and Rankins respectively (and CB with Hilton?).
It does feel like there are still some moves to be made - is that a trade back or another low end FA signing?
They seem to have the cap space for some more small moves.
(03-22-2025, 09:31 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Bell is a fa at safety. Who starts next to Stone?
Battle, same as the last six games.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - Soonerpeace - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 10:20 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: The signings of Oren Burks and Lucas Patrick look a lot like the front office signing Trent Brown last year. Signing players who won’t block a high draft pick but could also hold the fort if a draft pick wasn’t ready until after the bye.
But then you’ve got Edge and 3T where they haven’t made a single addition but have lost Hubbard and Rankins respectively (and CB with Hilton?).
It does feel like there are still some moves to be made - is that a trade back or another low end FA signing?
They seem to have the cap space for some more small moves.
Battle, same as the last six games.
You forgot about Slaton
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - Soonerpeace - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 09:36 AM)Synric Wrote: Bengals are doing alot of homework on this Linebacker class. It's probably a larger priority than Safety.
They are looking at guard and LB early
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - Clark W Griswold - 03-22-2025
I also think the Bengals don’t see DL as an absolute must draft in the first round. I just think they see Trey/Ossai/Murphy and probably feel like a first round edge only makes sense if he the highest player left on their board.
You can’t commit to a certain position by round because if you draft only for need then you end up reaching or passing on really good players.
If a guy like Tyler Warren falls to 17 and they have him rated as a top ten player then they have to pick him. Doesn’t matter that TE isn’t a position of need - take the guy if you think he’s a future pro bowler. They will definitely address G/DL in the draft they just don’t have to take them in any particular order.
I am leaning towards a safety in the first if one or both of those guys are available. That position is still pretty weak and a guy like Emmanwori can help vs run and the pass. But it all depends on who is available.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-22-2025
With a new DC, new OL coach, and some other coaching changes, it is hard to get a read on the existing pecking order, and hiw the FO feels about the guys we have. Not to mention schene changes. A Vyper, more LBs, less nickel, etc.
Big picture, other than QB, punter, and long snapper, and maybe C, I think we could use help/upgrades at every single position group. It is just a matter of how one prioritizes things.
OTC has Higgins at $24.1 mil cap hit this year, and Chase at $23.57. Early days, Tee's numbers have fluctuated already. But that is roghly a $2+ mill decrease for Tee and a $2 mil increase for Chase. Net wash. $24 mil in space without Patrick. Call it $21.9 with.
Paying Trey will take up some, the PS will take $3-4 mil, Rd1 pick net is around $2, and so is paying 53 instead of 51. And guys on IR (All). That is $8-$9 less, $13-$14 mil, minus Trey. Plus you know we keep a cushion for injuries (All won't be the only guy on IR).
Now, if we waived Moss (+3.3) and/or Volson (+$3.56) that nets $7 mil. Plus Burrow coukd restructure for +$19 mil. Moss getting waived seems likely, the others? Bottom line, there is not a ton there atm. Some. If we get a restructure, or Pratt/Stone moves, then more.
1. Guard.
Signed: Patrick (G/C), Volson, Karras (starting C + G), Ford (T/G), Lee (C/G), Kirkland (G/T), Stueber.
We have bodies. It is just that the best of them are best suited as backups (Patrick, Volson), already starting at center (Karras), primarily play/played another spot first/better (Ford, Lee, Kirkland), or have virtually no NFL experience (Kirkland, Lee, Stueber).
Drafting a short armed college OT and converting them to G with an eye on LT in the future and OT3 at present (also a need), is a viable strategy. A C pick could allow Karras to play G, but given his poor run block grades, I am not a huge fan of that.
Needs: At least one quality starter level, maybe 2.
Best method: 1 in FA + 1 in draft.
FAs: Scherff, Hernandez, Risner, Colon.
Draft: Jackson, Zabel, Ratledge, Fairchild, Gray, Kandra.
OT conversion: Campbell, Membou, Conerly, Savaiinaea, Grant, Mbow.
#17 is unlikely unless Campbell or Membou fall in our laps. But a trade down would bring Jackson, Zabel, and Conerly into play. They and others certainly in play at #49.
------------------------
2. Pass rush help, from anywhere/everywhere: DE, OLB/Edge, LB, DT/3T.
DE & DT are the most obvious spots. But Golden does play less nickel and more 4-3. There are a couple types of players that he may want that we don't have on roster.
Lou liked true DE's not 3-4 outside OLB/Edge types. Prioritizing run stopping in our division (Hubbard, Murphy, Sample, etc). Though Trey & Ossai have some OLB in their pasts.
Golden likes to play with a Vyper. An 3-4 stand up OLB/Edge or an An off-ball 4-3 OLB type who can pressure the passercoukd fill the bill nicely. And we don't really have either type on the roster. All our LBs are 4231 or 4-3 MLB types (though IDK in Burks) and our DE's are hand in the dirt not stand up OLB types.
IDK what the change will mean for the DE & LB position groups moving forward. Or how he views the guys we already have. DT could be impacted too. If we go lighter in the esge with a Vyper instead of a DE, does that mean heavier at the other 3 spots? Less 5 man fronts? More? IDK.
But I do know we need more pass rush. From the edge, from the middle, and from LB. Be it from a true DE, DT/3T, OLB 3-4 edge, or 4-3 OLB. Or all of the above.
DE (6): Hendrickson, Ossai; Murphy, C. Johnson, C. Sample, I. Thomas.
DT/NT: (4): BJ Hill, Slaton; Jenkins, Jackson
LB (5): L. Wilson, Pratt; Burks, Njogmeta, Heyward
Trey is obviously a stud. Ossai came on late last year and was retained with a raise, though IDK if he is ready to be an every down DE2 and can hold up vs the run. Murphy got no sacks last year but was decent otherwise. Sample was a competent rotational edge whi coukd kick inside & a good run stopper prior to his injury. And I thought Johnson looked decent in linited snaps.
If Sample can play, have have 5 guys who can play some. And IF Ossai can hold up at DE2. I could easily see a true DE (Stewart, Jackson, Scourton, JTT, Sawyer, Burch, Gillotte, etc) or an OLB/Edge type (Green, Pearce, etc) or both in the draft. It is a deep class with a lot of good pass rushers. And Smith as a FA option with 10 sacks last year, but he might be too expensive.
Further there are Rd1 guys like Walker & Campbell who are LB/pass rush guys who could work well for us as well as a Vyper type or 4-3 OLB. And our LB's are all MLB types. Aside from pass rush, some more sideline to sideline quickness at LB would also help. Though Burks could give us some of that, I am unfamiliar with him.
Whether one wants to label it a DE need or a LB need, there is a need for outside pass rush and dynacism at both spots. And given the depth at both spots, one of each isn't out of the question, despite only 6 picks.
We are short a body at DT/NT. We usually carry 5 (or even 6), and we only have 4 signed. And all are better run stoppers than pass rushers. And disruptor/pass rush guy for the DT rotation is needed, though Hill/Slaton are capable starters.
-----------
After that, I think I drop down a level. Safety upgrades or a do it all TE1 type (Warren, Ferguson, Evans) would be fantastic. As would a true CB1, or even 1 more proven CB so Fig isn't first up.
Level 3 wouid be OT3 and RB depth. WR isn't too dynamic outide of Tee & Chase. You could argue Gesicki & Hudson are actually WR3 and WR4 and they are TEs. Though Yoshi did make progress and we aren't giving up on Burton (yet). Supposedly. A guy like Bech or Tez Johnson or Noel or Higgins or Savion Williams would be fun if we get an extra pick somehow. And McPherson was pretty damn shaky last year and we save $2.5 mil with a post June 1 cut.
Musts: G, DT/3T, pass rush help (DE/OLB/Edge)
Nice: S upgrades, TE1, CB1, coverage LB
Cherry on top: OT3, RB3, WR3-4, PK.
Sorry for the length.
RE: Happy Tampering Day - SunsetBengal - 03-22-2025
(03-21-2025, 10:12 PM)pulses Wrote: This guy has been mid 60s and didnt give up a sack last year....Volson is not anywhere close to that.
The guy was a 40 in 2023 and a 30 in 2022. Last year was the anomaly for him, rather than his normal.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - XsandOs - 03-22-2025
The question is whether the Bengals feel the roster is almost set in terms of starters.
If that is the case, then we are looking at a 2022 type of draft, where the first three rounds are on picks to replace future departures. CTB started at week 8.
Also, I realize that it is difficult to find immediate starters outside of top 10-15, especially on OL and DL. I don't think Mims was supposed to start early, and Jenkins was thrown in due to immediate need.
There is so much to consider in terms of which position(s) is/are immediate need(s) and who is(are) available in the draft at our mid round picks.
First and Second round CB, S, LB - could start sometime this year. G and 3-tech could possibly do as well.
But to get starters at all those positions in this draft, maybe wishful thinking.
RE: Happy Tampering Day - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 12:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The guy was a 40 in 2023 and a 30 in 2022. Last year was the anomaly for him, rather than his normal.
Well, that is a very Goodberry take on it.
Another, at least equally valid take would be that his pass protection grades have improved steadily over the last 3 years. 30 to 40 to 60. And the run block has always been pretty decent.
Maybe he just got better or figured something out.
RE: Happy Tampering Day - SunsetBengal - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 12:42 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Well, that is a very Goodberry take on it.
Another, at least equally valid take would be that his pass protection grades have improved steadily over the last 3 years. 30 to 40 to 60. And the run block has always been pretty decent.
Maybe he just got better or figured something out.
Hmm, dude's going into his 9th year. He's been who he is for a while now. He just benefitted from playing 10.5 games on a run first offense last year. It's always easier to pass block on a run first team.
RE: Happy Tampering Day - rfaulk34 - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 12:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The guy was a 40 in 2023 and a 30 in 2022. Last year was the anomaly for him, rather than his normal.
Let's put those grades to the test and see how the numbers stack up with comparable snap counts.
Volson
2024 - 984 snaps, 6 sacks, 10 hits, 27 hurries, 43 pressures. Grades - 59.3, 65.6, 49.9 -- 96.1 pass block efficiency. 8 penalties.
Patrick
2023 - 953 snaps, 0 sacks, 3 hits, 25 hurries, 28 pressures. Grades - 50.5, 61.6, 40.6 -- 97.4 pass block efficiency. 11 penalties.
2021 - 967 snaps, 2 sacks, 4 hits, 15 hurries, 21 pressures. Grades - 57.5, 54.2, 64.3 -- 98.0 pass block efficiency. 3 penalties.
Volson
2023 - 1087 snaps, 5 sacks, 6 hits, 27 hurries, 38 pressures. Grades - 58.3, 64.0, 46.7 -- 96.9 pass block efficiency. 3 penalties.
Patrick
2020 - 1086 snaps, 3 sacks, 1 hit, 17 hurries, 21 pressures. Grades - 66.9, 66.1, 62.9 -- 98.0 pass block efficiency. 3 penalties.
Conclusion: **** PFF grades. I'll take those pass block numbers over Volson's every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
RE: NFL insider hints that Bengals are on the verge of re-signing Trey - Graphicguy - 03-22-2025
(03-20-2025, 11:01 AM)pally Wrote: Agents start rumors like that as a negotiating ploy. If Trey comes out and says that he is willing to sit a year then I will believe it
Yeah...Trey's agent really sin't doing him any favors. First he said he could get the Bengals a 1st rounder in a trade for Trey. That wasn't remotely true. Now, he's saying Trey will sit out a year. There's NOTHING....absolutely NOTING that Trey has said that would make be believe that. He has a P!ss Poor agent.
RE: Happy Tampering Day - SunsetBengal - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 01:01 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote:
Let's put those grades to the test and see how the numbers stack up with comparable snap counts.
Volson
2024 - 984 snaps, 6 sacks, 10 hits, 27 hurries, 43 pressures. Grades - 59.3, 65.6, 49.9 -- 96.1 pass block efficiency. 8 penalties.
Patrick
2023 - 953 snaps, 0 sacks, 3 hits, 25 hurries, 28 pressures. Grades - 50.5, 61.6, 40.6 -- 97.4 pass block efficiency. 11 penalties.
2021 - 967 snaps, 2 sacks, 4 hits, 15 hurries, 21 pressures. Grades - 57.5, 54.2, 64.3 -- 98.0 pass block efficiency. 3 penalties.
Volson
2023 - 1087 snaps, 5 sacks, 6 hits, 27 hurries, 38 pressures. Grades - 58.3, 64.0, 46.7 -- 96.9 pass block efficiency. 3 penalties.
Patrick
2020 - 1086 snaps, 3 sacks, 1 hit, 17 hurries, 21 pressures. Grades - 66.9, 66.1, 62.9 -- 98.0 pass block efficiency. 3 penalties.
Conclusion: **** PFF grades. I'll take those pass block numbers over Volson's every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
Lol, you need to do the comparisons same year/same year. That is some fredtoast level of convoluting the stats/moving the goalposts type of shit right there. Bottom line is that if he were any good, Green Bay would have kept him around. He was blocking for Aaron Rodgers before his decline and likely never had to worry much about him trying to hold the ball for 4-6 seconds. You see how Patrick did in 2023 blocking for Fields, who runs around and tries to extend the play, he was a penalty machine.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 12:40 PM)XsandOs Wrote: The question is whether the Bengals feel the roster is almost set in terms of starters.
If that is the case, then we are looking at a 2022 type of draft, where the first three rounds are on picks to replace future departures. CTB started at week 8.
Also, I realize that it is difficult to find immediate starters outside of top 10-15, especially on OL and DL. I don't think Mims was supposed to start early, and Jenkins was thrown in due to immediate need.
There is so much to consider in terms of which position(s) is/are immediate need(s) and who is(are) available in the draft at our mid round picks.
First and Second round CB, S, LB - could start sometime this year. G and 3-tech could possibly do as well.
But to get starters at all those positions in this draft, maybe wishful thinking.
You are absolutely correct. Too many holes to fill/upgrade possibilities and too little space and picks to realistically plug them all. LG, RG, DE2, TE1, SS, FS, CB1, LB2, WR3, plus a rotational DT pass rusher, OT3, RB3, and PK. That's 13 spots. 9 feasibly starters.
That ain't happening. We are gonna have to live with imperfect solutions at some spots, hope guys bounce back at others, hope guys improve at others, and hope the scheme/coaching helps others.
But which is which and who is who? 6 picks + 1-3 small/medium FA signings is certainly feasible now. More if Burrow restructures or we shed significant salary.
I think it is reasonable to try and get a starter on day 1 and a starter/rotational level guy on day 2. 4th round and below is rotational/depth. A starter is found money, and usually down the road.
So hope for:
FA: 1 more starter level
Draft: 1 starter + 2 starter/high rotational
Draft: 3 depth
So maybe 3-4 starter level solutions and living with the rest.
EDIT: The easiest to live with? For me.
1. PK: McPherson: hope he bounces back with full health.
2. WR3: Yoshi. Trust in his trajectory and we do have Gesicki/Hudson as easentially WR3-4 options. And maybe Chuck Sizzle can stay healthy or Burton gets his head on straight.
3. LB2: Pratt. Hope he bounces back. But don't have him out there 3 downs all the time.If he pitches a fit, start Burks or trade. That would at least free up some $$ and/or net a pick where we could draft some replacement LB depth.
Now we are down to: RG, LG, DE2, TE1, CB1, SS, FS, rotational DT pass rusher, OT3, RB3.
I think hoping the new system helps the secondary guys is not unreasonable. Living with CTB at CB1 and Turner/Dax were both pretty good before injury. That takes CB1 off the board unless Johnson falls to #17. Maybe a Hikton replacement later in, a lot of good slots in the draft.
And take 1 S off. One good one + Stone/Battle would give us 3 playable guys.
So: RG, LG, DE2, TE1, 1 S, rotational DT/pass rush, CB4, OT3, RB3.
Still a long list, but feels more doable. Probably gonna have to live with a substandard starter somewhere (Ossai, D. Sample, Battle/Stone, Patrick).
But a Burrow restructure, a cut or two (Moss?), a trade back, and/or some good value FA signings and it really becomes possible to get close.
1 of Hernandez/Scherff/Colon/Risner
1 of best bargain FA defense: Smith (DE), Gillmore (CB), Simmons/Blackmon (S)
1 of best bargain FA: OT3 (Tyron Smith?)/RB3.
If we even get 2 of those, I'd be thrilled.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - phil413 - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 01:17 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: You are absolutely correct. Too many holes to fill/upgrade possibilities and too little space and picks to realistically plug them all. LG, RG, DE2, TE1, SS, FS, CB1, LB2, WR3, plus a rotational DT pass rusher, OT3, RB3, and PK. That's 13 spots. 9 feasibly starters.
That ain't happening. We are gonna have to live with imperfect solutions at some spots, hope guys bounce back at others, hope guys improve at others, and hope the scheme/coaching helps others.
But which is which and who is who? 6 picks + 1-3 small/medium FA signings is certainly feasible now. More if Burrow restructures or we shed significant salary.
I think it is reasonable to try and get a starter on day 1 and a starter/rotational level guy on day 2. 4th round and below is rotational/depth. A starter is found money, and usually down the road.
So hope for:
FA: 1 more starter level
Draft: 1 starter + 2 starter/high rotational
Draft: 3 depth
So maybe 3-4 starter level solutions and living with the rest.
Two opportunities to maximize quantity is the right trade back offer (and scenario where a true BPA isn't there) and late free ageny bargains. I know we hate that word but maybe Risner, Campbell, Smith or a vet DB settle for a deal pre draft or you get a post draft cut. Other teams may cut a fringe starting guard or DE if they have a great draft at that position.
I know the simulators are mostly unrealistic, but in most trade backs you still land just about as good of a DE prospect at 17 as with 28. You could realistically draft competition at DE, S, G and another BPA even.
RE: Bengals needs after FA Frenzy - RunKijanaRun - 03-22-2025
I was puzzled a few weeks ago when they didn’t sign Tee/Chase to their extensions earlier so they could be more creative with the cap. Even though they missed that deadline, they still could have prorated a lot of their money to allow more immediate cap room.
They refused. why?
Purposefully inflating the cap gives them an excuse to close the wallet. Which is exactly what they’ve done.
It’s cool to be happy they signed our guys to those LTCs, but don’t be fooled. They’re still cheap.
RE: Happy Tampering Day - rfaulk34 - 03-22-2025
(03-22-2025, 01:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Lol, you need to do the comparisons same year/same year. That is some fredtoast level of convoluting the stats/moving the goalposts type of shit right there. Bottom line is that if he were any good, Green Bay would have kept him around. He was blocking for Aaron Rodgers before his decline and likely never had to worry much about him trying to hold the ball for 4-6 seconds. You see how Patrick did in 2023 blocking for Fields, who runs around and tries to extend the play, he was a penalty machine.
Well...i'll just overlook the insult. I was trying to compare apples to apples by matching snap per snap in any given year to show how they do comparitively but i did find a mistake. I should have just used pass block snaps instead of total snaps and i keep forgetting that PFF defaults to reg+post. I should have set it to just regular season.
To your point, same year to same year is less revealing because they played a different number of snaps per year. Even a total number of pass block snaps for same years would probably be better but you still need to look at the averages (per snap basis), not the raw numbers.
Bottom line is, he's a clear upgrade to Volson and/or Cappa in passpro, while being quite underwhelming for who we want him to protect.