+- Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise (https://thebengalsboard.com)
+-- Forum: Cincinnati Bengals / NFL (https://thebengalsboard.com/forum-3.html)
+--- Forum: JUNGLE NOISE (https://thebengalsboard.com/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? (/thread-12717.html)
Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
So far this year, Kirkpatrick's PFF rating is 41.9 which is Poor. He's ranked as the 91st best CB. Zeitler, in a new scheme with the Browns ranks at 72.5 which is Average. Last year he was rated as the #7 Guard in football.
IF we let Kirkpatrick walk, our CB's would have been: Jones/Jackson/Dennard/Shaw then Russell and Benwikere. Granted Dennard has been a disappointment up to this year...but this far this year he's at a 79.6. Jackson has a 77.4. Granted they're not facing a teams #1 WR like Kirkpatrick, but it seems they are capable.
Now the offensive line with Zeitler would have been: Ced/Boling/Bodine/Zeitler/Fisher...and Smith could be rotated with Fisher and Ced and TJ Johnson could be slid in at Center producing something like this: Smith/Boling/Johnson/Zeitler/Fisher.
Which scenario makes the team better?
Personally I think the dropoff from Kirkpatrick to the other CB's is less than from Zeitler to the other lineman. Especially allowing Johnson to slide in at Center.
More food for thought: Jones is a $7.6 million cap hit. Andre Smith makes $3.25 million. Combined you have nearly Zeitler's salary.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Pat5775 - 09-27-2017
Hmm... I would have to say no.
Our offensive line is in shambles, and we have a plethora of CB's on the roster. Kirkpatrick is decent, but Zeitler was better in his respective role
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
Yep. Our young CB's seem to be playing well. Not to mention, Kirkpatrick has been bad so far.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - muskiesfan - 09-27-2017
We should have kept at least Zeitler or Whit. Honestly, when you have the worst OLine in the NFL the drop off is definitely considerable from Zeitler to these jokesters. Keeping Zeitler would mean an improvement at 1 position on the OLine. It doesn't mean the overall play would be improved. Zeitler had some issues last year as well. Being flanked by Bodine and Ced did him no favors.
Moving Johnson to C should be a no brainer. In the past when given playing time their, he has outplayed Bodine. With Bodine being the personal pick of our shitty OLine coach though, Bodine gets to start no matter what. I wonder what it feels like to be a fan of a team that is actually ran properly. I bet it feels amazing.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - ochocincos - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So far this year, Kirkpatrick's PFF rating is 41.9 which is Poor. He's ranked as the 91st best CB. Zeitler, in a new scheme with the Browns ranks at 72.5 which is Average. Last year he was rated as the #7 Guard in football.
IF we let Kirkpatrick walk, our CB's would have been: Jones/Jackson/Dennard/Shaw then Russell and Benwikere. Granted Dennard has been a disappointment up to this year...but this far this year he's at a 79.6. Jackson has a 77.4. Granted they're not facing a teams #1 WR like Kirkpatrick, but it seems they are capable.
Now the offensive line with Zeitler would have been: Ced/Boling/Bodine/Zeitler/Fisher...and Smith could be rotated with Fisher and Ced and TJ Johnson could be slid in at Center producing something like this: Smith/Boling/Johnson/Zeitler/Fisher.
Which scenario makes the team better?
Personally I think the dropoff from Kirkpatrick to the other CB's is less than from Zeitler to the other lineman. Especially allowing Johnson to slide in at Center.
DK was lower on the priority list for me compared to Whitworth and Zeitler, but we know the Bengals value CBs very highly.
I think too if Dennard and WJ3 continue their development this year that they've shown so far, Adam Jones might be a candidate to cut next offseason to free up $6 mill.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:33 AM)ochocincos Wrote: DK was lower on the priority list for me compared to Whitworth and Zeitler, but we know the Bengals value CBs very highly.
I think too if Dennard and WJ3 continue their development this year that they've shown so far, Adam Jones might be a candidate to cut next offseason to free up $6 mill.
Yep. Or they could have let Jones go. Keep Kirkpatrick AND Zeitler.
Jones is a $7.6 million cap hit. Andre Smith makes $3.25 million. Combined you have nearly Zeitlers salary.
There was definately ways to retain him AND Whitworth if they wanted.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Go Cards - 09-27-2017
Believe we could have kept both.
But Zeitler over Dre per being a more pressing need though.
Was not a fan of drafting Dre to begin with but have supported the pick and pulled for him.
Do not think he is as bad as those numbers say but he is not as good as advertised either.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - phil413 - 09-27-2017
THE PISTONS Wrote:So far this year, Kirkpatrick's PFF rating is 41.9 which is Poor. He's ranked as the 91st best CB. Zeitler, in a new scheme with the Browns ranks at 72.5 which is Average. Last year he was rated as the #7 Guard in football.
IF we let Kirkpatrick walk, our CB's would have been: Jones/Jackson/Dennard/Shaw then Russell and Benwikere. Granted Dennard has been a disappointment up to this year...but this far this year he's at a 79.6. Jackson has a 77.4. Granted they're not facing a teams #1 WR like Kirkpatrick, but it seems they are capable.
Now the offensive line with Zeitler would have been: Ced/Boling/Bodine/Zeitler/Fisher...and Smith could be rotated with Fisher and Ced and TJ Johnson could be slid in at Center producing something like this: Smith/Boling/Johnson/Zeitler/Fisher.
Which scenario makes the team better?
Personally I think the dropoff from Kirkpatrick to the other CB's is less than from Zeitler to the other lineman. Especially allowing Johnson to slide in at Center.
I wish I were wrong, but I really think it's more about absolutes....only a sith deals in them ya know. This team pays and drafts high corners and tackles, not guards/centers and safeties. I really had hope they'd buck this trend with Zeitler the low 1st (highest pick since they let Steinbach walk). Guard was one of the team's few needs at the time, and when it came time for a contract.....IF the team would ever pay a premium it would be this time.
They needed stability, you can't buy chemistry. Timetable wise, they have ONE OL in their prime (Boling, not Bodine..he's chop steak not prime). Zeitler dealt with two turnstiles to either side, and I don't hesitate to use that word we use too much for the sake of showing how disgusted we are of this. There was nothing Zeitler was going to do to earn a pay day. Go get your best deal and bring it back, if you leave oh well we drafted guys we believe in. Then when the unit fails we believe "we need to play better" solves any anger over a loss.
You're right that Zeitler was the bigger need, but DreKirk plays a premium position. Just be glad Dennard wasn't on schedule to be a UFA the same year. Then they'd throw him a say 20% less/yr long term and see it as a supplement to then losing Dre.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - StLucieBengal - 09-27-2017
Zeitler is the highest paid OG and is only 7th...... not worth that.
They had to sign Dre because Dennard has been non existent
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:53 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Believe we could have kept both.
But Zeitler over Dre per being a more pressing need though.
Was not a fan of drafting Dre to begin with but have supported the pick and pulled for him.
Do not think he is as bad as those numbers say but he is not as good as advertised either.
Some of the issues with our CB's is some are better playing man-to-man and they use them in Zone a lot here. The Bengals don't seem to do a good job of finding guys that fit our system. We draft guys and try to fit them to the system.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:56 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Zeitler is the highest paid OG and is only 7th...... not worth that.
They had to sign Dre because Dennard has been non existent
And the best Guard in free agency next year will be the highest paid guard.
The salary cap rises by $10 million EVERY YEAR. That escalates salaries by some 7% a year. A Guard paid $8 million in 2012 would get $12 million now. It's NFL economics and the Bengals haven't adjusted. (Nor have fans.)
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Socal Bengals fan - 09-27-2017
ive never liked Kirkpatrick so i thought it was stupid to sign him to an extension. ps his tackling is the worst
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 11:44 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: ive never liked Kirkpatrick so i thought it was stupid to sign him to an extension. ps his tackling is the worst
The tackling on our entire defense is questionable. It's getting bad in the NFL as a whole. Guys go for the big hit instead of wrapping up.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - ochocincos - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 11:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Some of the issues with our CB's is some are better playing man-to-man and they use them in Zone a lot here. The Bengals don't seem to do a good job of finding guys that fit our system. We draft guys and try to fit them to the system.
IIRC, Nnamdi Asomugha thrived in Oakland's man coverage system but really fell off when put into Philly's zone coverage scheme. Goes to show you how fit is important. The Patriots are kings at finding players that fit their system, not trying to morph a player into what they want him to be.
I always thought the Bengals drafted CBs who were more man coverage guys so it doesn't surprise me to see certain CBs struggle when the Bengals play zone.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - ochocincos - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 11:46 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The tackling on our entire defense is questionable. It's getting bad in the NFL as a whole. Guys go for the big hit instead of wrapping up.
This infuriates me. Certain players continue to try and hit really hard rather than just making a tackle or attempt to deflect the ball with their hands. With the league putting more emphasis on safety and taking away the big hits, you'd think these players would try harder to change their playing style.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Wyche'sWarrior - 09-27-2017
Doesn't look that way, does it?
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - PhilHos - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 10:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So far this year, Kirkpatrick's PFF rating is 41.9 which is Poor. He's ranked as the 91st best CB. Zeitler, in a new scheme with the Browns ranks at 72.5 which is Average. Last year he was rated as the #7 Guard in football.
IF we let Kirkpatrick walk, our CB's would have been: Jones/Jackson/Dennard/Shaw then Russell and Benwikere. Granted Dennard has been a disappointment up to this year...but this far this year he's at a 79.6. Jackson has a 77.4. Granted they're not facing a teams #1 WR like Kirkpatrick, but it seems they are capable.
Now the offensive line with Zeitler would have been: Ced/Boling/Bodine/Zeitler/Fisher...and Smith could be rotated with Fisher and Ced and TJ Johnson could be slid in at Center producing something like this: Smith/Boling/Johnson/Zeitler/Fisher.
Which scenario makes the team better?
Personally I think the dropoff from Kirkpatrick to the other CB's is less than from Zeitler to the other lineman. Especially allowing Johnson to slide in at Center.
More food for thought: Jones is a $7.6 million cap hit. Andre Smith makes $3.25 million. Combined you have nearly Zeitler's salary.
Did we have to choose between the 2, though? Don't we have a buttload of cap still remaining? There's really no reason why we couldn't have kept Zeitler except that our front office is stupid.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - THE PISTONS - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 11:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: This infuriates me. Certain players continue to try and hit really hard rather than just making a tackle or attempt to deflect the ball with their hands. With the league putting more emphasis on safety and taking away the big hits, you'd think these players would try harder to change their playing style.
I've read scouting reports from college on Burfict where he goes for the big hit and leads with his head. He still does that in the NFL...AFTER his concussion issues...you'd think he'd change.
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - Socal Bengals fan - 09-27-2017
to be honest ive thought the tackling has been pretty damn good except for Kirkpatrick who continues to stink up the place. ive find iy funny W3 is in for 5 plays and geys a pick6. dre n pacman did nothing but get burnt all game long
RE: Was Kirkpatrick over Zeitler the right choice? - ochocincos - 09-27-2017
(09-27-2017, 11:54 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Did we have to choose between the 2, though? Don't we have a buttload of cap still remaining? There's really no reason why we couldn't have kept Zeitler except that our front office is stupid.
Bengals have about $12 mill in cap space, 11st highest in the league. They'll just roll it over to next year saying it's for Dunlap and Atkins extensions. Whether both of those actually happen is a separate discussion.