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+--- Thread: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? (/thread-15322.html)
Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - WeezyBengal - 03-23-2018
I mean, seriously? Other than Vontez Burfict (who is constantly suspended or injured) and Dhani Jones, who was the last good linebacker the Bengals had?
How do we continue to whiff on guys in the draft and free agency?
Nick Vigil
Karlos Dansby
Kevin Minter
Rey Malaluga (he had a couple decent years)
Jayson Dimanche
Marquis Flowers
Emmanual Lamur
Vinny Ray
Manny Lawson
Brandon Johnson
Dan Skuta
Keith Rivers
Thomas Howard
Rodrick Muckelroy
Rashad Jeanty
In 10 years I can honestly say that Dhani Jones and Vontez are the only respectably GOOD linebackers that the Bengals have had. Linebacker shouldnt be that hard of a position to constantly screw up on. I want some butts!
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Au165 - 03-23-2018
I mean when you look at the list, look at the actual draft capitol spent on them. That pretty much tells you why we haven't found success, the idea we can just pluck them in the middle to late rounds isn't working. This is why I'd like to draft one in the 1st round to anchor us into the future.
Side note: Thomas Howard was actually good for a while here until he got hurt. Rivers broke his jaw and was never the same.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Hoofhearted - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:36 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mean when you look at the list, look at the actual draft capitol spent on them. That pretty much tells you why we haven't found success, the idea we can just pluck them in the middle to late rounds isn't working. This is why I'd like to draft one in the 1st round to anchor us into the future.
Side note: Thomas Howard was actually good for a while here until he got hurt. Rivers broke his jaw and was never the same.
Odell Thurman was good before he got into trouble, too.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - WeezyBengal - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:36 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mean when you look at the list, look at the actual draft capitol spent on them. That pretty much tells you why we haven't found success, the idea we can just pluck them in the middle to late rounds isn't working. This is why I'd like to draft one in the 1st round to anchor us into the future.
Side note: Thomas Howard was actually good for a while here until he got hurt. Rivers broke his jaw and was never the same.
Rivers wasnt good before that and he wasnt good after that. He was actually awful.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - WeezyBengal - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:45 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote:
Odell Thurman was good before he got into trouble, too.
And David Pollack had the makings to be a stud. He was another high round draft pick, though. I think he was actually a first rounder.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - 804 fan - 03-23-2018
Thomas Howard R.I.P was good and Manny Lawson was really a 3-4 lb that was out of place. The rest have been terrible as mentioned.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Au165 - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:53 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Rivers wasnt good before that and he wasnt good after that. He was actually awful.
His rookie year started off promising, but we will never know because he only made it 7 games in.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Hoofhearted - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:54 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And David Pollack had the makings to be a stud. He was another high round draft pick, though. I think he was actually a first rounder.
Yeah, Pollack was in the first round and I am pretty sure thurman was second round. So that should be our "cut-ff" line for the probability of hitting on an above average or so LB.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Luvnit2 - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I mean, seriously? Other than Vontez Burfict (who is constantly suspended or injured) and Dhani Jones, who was the last good linebacker the Bengals had?
How do we continue to whiff on guys in the draft and free agency?
Nick Vigil
Karlos Dansby
Kevin Minter
Rey Malaluga (he had a couple decent years)
Jayson Dimanche
Marquis Flowers
Emmanual Lamur
Vinny Ray
Manny Lawson
Brandon Johnson
Dan Skuta
Keith Rivers
Thomas Howard
Rodrick Muckelroy
Rashad Jeanty
In 10 years I can honestly say that Dhani Jones and Vontez are the only respectably GOOD linebackers that the Bengals have had. Linebacker shouldnt be that hard of a position to constantly screw up on. I want some butts!
I think it is harder to find great 3 down LBers in a 4-3 scheme. The 3-4 inside backers seem to be a lot easier to reload and find as they split the field in a 4 area zone versus ours at 3 area zone, it means 4-3 linebackers need to be more athletic so harder to find.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - SadFaceBengal15 - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:45 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote:
Odell Thurman was good before he got into trouble, too.
Yea but we missed in Thurman with interviews and character being a major factor in scouting a player. Spikes is our only hit imo lol
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Au165 - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 10:08 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think it is harder to find great 3 down LBers in a 4-3 scheme. The 3-4 inside backers seem to be a lot easier to reload and find as they split the field in a 4 area zone versus ours at 3 area zone, it means 4-3 linebackers need to be more athletic so harder to find.
This isn't really true. In a 3-4 often time one extra rusher is coming from the LB group, you don't see 3 man rushes very often because they are pretty ineffective. The coverage shell dictates more about how zones are divided than the personnel.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Yojimbo - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 10:08 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think it is harder to find great 3 down LBers in a 4-3 scheme. The 3-4 inside backers seem to be a lot easier to reload and find as they split the field in a 4 area zone versus ours at 3 area zone, it means 4-3 linebackers need to be more athletic so harder to find.
All the more reason the team shouldn't assume they can take mid round projects and "coach them up". If linebacker is more of a premium position for a 4-3, then it should be drafted higher, like CB, OT, DE.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - fredtoast - 03-23-2018
I think part of it is that in a 4-3 scheme the LBs are not supposed to be the big play makers. Most "big name" LBs are 3-4 OLBs who get tons of sacks
But we have still missed on a lot of players.
When Marvin first arrived he brought in a lot of LBs. Free agents Kevin Hardy and Nate Webster . Two third rounders in '04 (Landon Johnson, Caleb Miller) and a first and second rounder in '05 (Pollack and Thurman). But none of them worked out very well.
Then after that we did not seem to be really interested in LBs until we used a first on Rivers and a second on Maualuga.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Au165 - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 10:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I think part of it is that in a 4-3 scheme the LBs are not supposed to be the big play makers. Most "big name" LBs are 3-4 OLBs who get tons of sacks
But we have still missed on a lot of players.
When Marvin first arrived he brought in a lot of LBs. Free agents Greg Hardy and Nate . Two third rounders in '04 (Landon Johnson, Caleb Miller) and a first and second rounder in '05 (Pollack and Thurman). But none of them worked out very well.
Then after that we did not seem to be really interested in LBs until we used a first on Rivers and a second on Maualuga.
That's because people now associate Sacks to Linebackers when really in a 3-4 OLB basically act as the DE. People love pass rushers because they can "evaluate" them, they get a sack they are good and if they don't they aren't. Stack linebackers really are tackling machines and they should cover the middle and flats at times. The reality is 4-3 linebackers are more closely related to inside 3-4 linebackers which don't get a ton of press either.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Truck_1_0_1_ - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 09:53 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Rivers wasnt good before that and he wasnt good after that. He was actually awful.
Rivers was a damn good LB that outplayed anyone he went up against.
On the mothership, I had a back and forth with a member named JohnHenry, for about 3 pages worth of posts (literaly; this lasted a whole week) and every damn number I compared with either Howard or Brandon Johnson (per 100 snaps, as their snap counts were wildly different), had Rivers FAR AND AWAY the better LBer of the 3 and there was no comparison.
The sole issue, was that he got injured here and there, while the other two were fully healthy (save for 2012, for Howard). That's it. Bfine chimed in once in a while to say that because of the injury bug, he was automatically worse than BJ or Howard.
This was when PFF had all of their stats and metrics; I did not use their grades even once for this comparison, but even then, he had higher grades than both players.
Better in coverage than BJ (yet he was pulled on passing downs, go figure), more stops in the run game than either, more tackles a season than either, even on picks, even on sacks (they all got 2/3 sacks and picks within a 3 year span), but the main difference was in the run game and Rivers was the best by far.
A shitty attitude and injury is why we got rid of him, but he was a damn good player while he was here. Maybe he didn't quite attain his 9th overall status, but he was still more than good.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Truck_1_0_1_ - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 10:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I think part of it is that in a 4-3 scheme the LBs are not supposed to be the big play makers. Most "big name" LBs are 3-4 OLBs who get tons of sacks
But we have still missed on a lot of players.
When Marvin first arrived he brought in a lot of LBs. Free agents Greg Hardy and Nate . Two third rounders in '04 (Landon Johnson, Caleb Miller) and a first and second rounder in '05 (Pollack and Thurman). But none of them worked out very well.
Then after that we did not seem to be really interested in LBs until we used a first on Rivers and a second on Maualuga.
Kevin Hardy.
One of my 3 favourite LBs ever. Beast.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - sandwedge - 03-23-2018
One thing the Bengals do that I don't really care for is, draft tweeners that played DE in college and try to get them to play LB. Pollack, I think, was the only one they had any kind of success with transitioning to a LB. I'd really like to see them scrap the whole idea of making Lawson a SAM backer and just put him on the edge and go get the ball.
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - fredtoast - 03-23-2018
(03-23-2018, 11:35 AM)sandwedge Wrote: One thing the Bengals do that I don't really care for is, draft tweeners that played DE in college and try to get them to play LB. Pollack, I think, was the only one they had any kind of success with transitioning to a LB. I'd really like to see them scrap the whole idea of making Lawson a SAM backer and just put him on the edge and go get the ball.
They stunted Michael Johnsons development as a DE for 2 years because they kept him a skinny LB/DE hybrid.
The NFL is too much of a passing league to have a DE playing LB even on first and second down. If you want to have a DE who is just a pass rush specialist then bring him off the bench when you bring in the 5th DB (who now plays more snaps than our 3rd LB).
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - Sled21 - 03-23-2018
Takeo Spikes....
RE: Why the hell cant we get linebacker right? - ochocincos - 03-23-2018
You'd think a team with a HC who was a Super Bowl winning DC and LB coach before that would have much better success getting good LBers and/or developing them.