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+--- Thread: Something that confuses me (/thread-15940.html)
Something that confuses me - Jpoore - 05-10-2018
William Jackson said today that the new defensive coordinator was running a lot of 1 on1 man to man type looks. But we drafted a safety to run more 3 safety, cover 3 type looks. Dosent make sense?
RE: Something that confuses me - Bilbo Saggins - 05-10-2018
You can run man coverage with two safeties playing over top and another one covering a RB/TE like a LB, can you not?
Perhaps Austin sees man to man as a foundational building block to what he wants to accomplish?
I like the approach, personally. If you have a guy like WJ3 and keep burning first round picks on CBs, you should be able to play different kinds of man coverage and play them well. Good press-man coverage can be tough to pull off without the right personnel, but can be absolutely brutal on an offense when it works.
RE: Something that confuses me - treee - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 02:34 AM)Jpoore Wrote: William Jackson said today that the new defensive coordinator was running a lot of 1 on1 man to man type looks. But we drafted a safety to run more 3 safety, cover 3 type looks. Dosent make sense?
Couple things:
1) Not all plays are strictly man or zone. You can simultaneously have some players manned up while the rest are in a zone (and vice versa).
2) A lot of it is situational.
For example, if an offense has their WRs & TEs lining up in bunch formations, man coverage can get burned by picks and obstruction routes.
That goes for if they're spreading you out too. If an offense is spreading their WRs & TEs out, it causes the gaps in zone coverage to be wider, giving the defenders a lot more ground to cover and wider windows for the QB.
3) The only thing a 3rd safety really does in this equation is make the defense more versatile in pass D. You can run zone or man and no matter what you're gonna have more athleticism and pass coverage ability because of it. Your run D takes a hit, but it's not that bad if you have a good line and at least 1 good LB on the field.
RE: Something that confuses me - Jpoore - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 03:34 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: You can run man coverage with two safeties playing over top and another one covering a RB/TE like a LB, can you not?Right I get that but that means u have either iloka or Williams as the te/rb coverer since Jessie bates is a center field safety type.
Perhaps Austin sees man to man as a foundational building block to what he wants to accomplish?
I like the approach, personally. If you have a guy like WJ3 and keep burning first round picks on CBs, you should be able to play different kinds of man coverage and play them well. Good press-man coverage can be tough to pull off without the right personnel, but can be absolutely brutal on an offense when it works.
(05-10-2018, 06:57 AM)treee Wrote: Couple things:
1) Not all plays are strictly man or zone. You can simultaneously have some players manned up while the rest are in a zone (and vice versa).
2) A lot of it is situational.
For example, if an offense has their WRs & TEs lining up in bunch formations, man coverage can get burned by picks and obstruction routes.
That goes for if they're spreading you out too. If an offense is spreading their WRs & TEs out, it causes the gaps in zone coverage to be wider, giving the defenders a lot more ground to cover and wider windows for the QB.
3) The only thing a 3rd safety really does in this equation is make the defense more versatile in pass D. You can run zone or man and no matter what you're gonna have more athleticism and pass coverage ability because of it. Your run D takes a hit, but it's not that bad if you have a good line and at least 1 good LB on the field.
My problem with it is u having iloka or Williams as the guys covering the te. That's why I thought we drafted Jefferson as that's the only thing he's good for right now. And yeah I get the whole zone and man kind of thing. But is wjiii gonna be a follower? Bc that's the only way it should hold up. Idk too many questions about the look of the defense right now.
RE: Something that confuses me - treee - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 07:58 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Right I get that but that means u have either iloka or Williams as the te/rb coverer since Jessie bates is a center field safety type.
My problem with it is u having iloka or Williams as the guys covering the te. That's why I thought we drafted Jefferson as that's the only thing he's good for right now. And yeah I get the whole zone and man kind of thing. But is wjiii gonna be a follower? Bc that's the only way it should hold up. Idk too many questions about the look of the defense right now.
You can still have Jefferson on a TE. So if you do a typical cover 3 deep shell, you'll have two CBs going back to the deep third and one safety. That would leave 2 safeties for covering man or even just zone in the middle of the field.
RE: Something that confuses me - John Shaft - 05-10-2018
Relax . Now is the time to look at schemes and personnel. That's what "training" camps are for.
RE: Something that confuses me - Go Cards - 05-10-2018
Agree with this especially if we are reading between the lines anyhow.
RE: Something that confuses me - Hammerstripes - 05-10-2018
We drafted a safety so that we can run more 3 safety looks. I'm guessing that means that we will use a 3rd safety instead of a LB.
Iloka and Bates deep, Williams playing in a nickel LB/S hybrid.
RE: Something that confuses me - Bengalitis - 05-10-2018
ow oh, this could mean confusion in the backfield.
RE: Something that confuses me - XenoMorph - 05-10-2018
Austin did great things with his DBs in Detriot..
give time and trust the process..
Nothing to worry about in spring OTA's other than someone getting hurt.
RE: Something that confuses me - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 05-10-2018
Most all of our Secondary are much better playing man to man then zone so i really like this.
I think we played far too much zone and played far too passive on Defense the last few years.
Hammerstripes has it correct. We drafted Bates to be our FS type with Iloka being our SS type similar to when we
had Reggie here. Bates is a lot like Reggie, has the smarts and a natural ability in open space that is rare. Even tho
Shawn is not the best Cover Safety, he would be just fine as a Cover LB'er i am sure. Him or Fej.
I love Jefferson but i think he would be used more on rushing downs anyways. Even if he can cover too.
RE: Something that confuses me - 3wt - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 01:24 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Most all of our Secondary are much better playing man to man then zone so i really like this.
I think we played far too much zone and played far too passive on Defense the last few years.
Hammerstripes has it correct. We drafted Bates to be our FS type with Iloka being our SS type similar to when we
had Reggie here. Bates is a lot like Reggie, has the smarts and a natural ability in open space that is rare. Even tho
Shawn is not the best Cover Safety, he would be just fine as a Cover LB'er i am sure. Him or Fej.
I love Jefferson but i think he would be used more on rushing downs anyways. Even if he can cover too.
All of this
RE: Something that confuses me - Jpoore - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 01:24 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Most all of our Secondary are much better playing man to man then zone so i really like this.Jefferson has a very low football iq which is why he was considered a bust coming from high school to college where he was a top recruit .he struggles mighty in traffic I only want Jefferson on the field if he's covering a te or rb. If u want a blitzing lber out Hubbard in that spot he played it in college dropped back and blitzed from Sam lber spot.
I think we played far too much zone and played far too passive on Defense the last few years.
Hammerstripes has it correct. We drafted Bates to be our FS type with Iloka being our SS type similar to when we
had Reggie here. Bates is a lot like Reggie, has the smarts and a natural ability in open space that is rare. Even tho
Shawn is not the best Cover Safety, he would be just fine as a Cover LB'er i am sure. Him or Fej.
I love Jefferson but i think he would be used more on rushing downs anyways. Even if he can cover too.
RE: Something that confuses me - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 05:46 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Jefferson has a very low football iq which is why he was considered a bust coming from high school to college where he was a top recruit .he struggles mighty in traffic I only want Jefferson on the field if he's covering a te or rb. If u want a blitzing lber out Hubbard in that spot he played it in college dropped back and blitzed from Sam lber spot.
Jefferson was getting it together last year, he is just really young, i am sure he can be taught to fight through
traffic. He was better at shedding blocks last year than what i saw of Vander Esch who couldn't disengage worth
a damn. Malik can shed blocks well and stop the run well.
Having a Safety that is not the best cover guy still is usually better than most, if not all Linebackers besides Luke
Keuchly. Hubbard is interesting, maybe be can drop back and cover better than Lawson but he is not the talent
of Lawson as a pass rusher.
Still, love all these picks, great Draft.
RE: Something that confuses me - Millhouse - 05-10-2018
(05-10-2018, 03:34 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: You can run man coverage with two safeties playing over top and another one covering a RB/TE like a LB, can you not?
Yup, its typically called 'cover 2 man', with the 2 safeties in zone coverage over the top, 4 man rush, and man coverage elswehere.
RE: Something that confuses me - Jpoore - 05-11-2018
(05-10-2018, 06:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Jefferson was getting it together last year, he is just really young, i am sure he can be taught to fight throughIt was for sure. The problem isn't stopping the run with Jefferson. It's recognizing that it is a run. He's very slow in that regard which is why he fell to the third. And as far as what our dline will look like on obvious longlong pas downs I imagine Dunlap Hubbard Atkins Lawson.
traffic. He was better at shedding blocks last year than what i saw of Vander Esch who couldn't disengage worth
a damn. Malik can shed blocks well and stop the run well.
Having a Safety that is not the best cover guy still is usually better than most, if not all Linebackers besides Luke
Keuchly. Hubbard is interesting, maybe be can drop back and cover better than Lawson but he is not the talent
of Lawson as a pass rusher.
Still, love all these picks, great Draft.
RE: Something that confuses me - BengalChris - 05-11-2018
(05-10-2018, 02:34 AM)Jpoore Wrote: William Jackson said today that the new defensive coordinator was running a lot of 1 on1 man to man type looks. But we drafted a safety to run more 3 safety, cover 3 type looks. Dosent make sense?
Yes, because the safety we drafted is more capable in man coverage than the two starters we have.
We could go man underneath with ether a 1 or 2 deep zone, depending on players the offense puts out there.
If we have a safety capable in man coverage, like Reggie was, then you can keep that safety out there without substitution.
We have good corners, especially Jackson and Dennard, both of whom are very good in man coverage. Kirkpatrick is alright until he gets grabby.
RE: Something that confuses me - phil413 - 05-11-2018
It takes serious talent to be able to play man coverage properly. I understand that we don't have shutdown corners anymore with the rules being what they are, but if you can hold your own then it just frees the DQ to play it more often. We drafted a true CF type because Marvin has to eat crow and his "safety" theory (that there is no free or strong) wasn't working. Instead of having to say we made a mistake playing two SS types together, or signing Williams long term in general, it's a lot easier to spin 3 safety looks (which I believe will happen) than having to change how you play the safeties.
RE: Something that confuses me - Au165 - 05-11-2018
There is a lot in this thread to work through some right and some wrong. As it has been pointed out man to man can be played for various reasons with varying levels of "help".
If it is cover 0 you are looking at no help which means you are sending extra blitzers, often time a linebacker or two but could also include a corner or safety. In this case the outside guys usually play slightly off due to no safety help over top. If they are running man cover 1 there are two normal ways you see this either a single high safety and a blitzer or a single high safety with a linebacker playing a hook zone, which in the second scenario it is kind of a man zone hybrid with zone up the middle of the field at two levels. In cover 1 the corners are normally going to shade the outside shoulder depending on formation knowing they have help to the middle of the field.
In cover 2 man there are two high safeties with providing protection in the event that a corner gets beat. Two man is the most common to see press man out of because you have the benefit of the help over top. Often times you will see press man into trail technique because it provides a pseudo bracket coverage on defenders and can create a lot of interceptions. Someone pointed out a cover 3, cover 3 is usually reserved for zone because in a man coverage format you'd be one man to man coverage short with a 3 lineman. You will occasionally see what you could call cover 3 man as a prevent defense but it is rare. To a point though cover 3 doesn't mean 3 safeties, it means a 3 high shell. Usually one safety rolls down into a hook or flat while the CB's and another safety bail out immediately on the snap.
The whole thing here is our corners were pretty much all projected coming out as better press man corners. Kirkpatrick was a master of the Saban shuffle and was thought to have huge upside as an NFL press man corner. In the vein of creating more turnovers, see the comment about about press man trail and the ability to force turnovers. With the trail technique it lets the corners attempt to jump routes more often because of that safety blanket over top. I for one am a big fan of a more aggressive man based defense with our current roster and welcome the change.