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Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Wes Mantooth - 06-16-2020
I know I'm stating the obvious here as far as team success goes. And obviously we're all rooting for all of these players to play well, free agent or not. But what I'm really trying to say here is that our recent change in approach needs to pay dividends. I'm especially pulling for these outside guys to produce.
Why? Well, it's probably pretty obvious to some of you but for those that may not have considered it, we need to see some rewards from our spending splurge to ensure that we remain proactive in free agency. If these guys don't live up to their contracts it may make us more reluctant in the future to invest in outside talent, which I think has somewhat happened before.
We've invested a somewhat decent amount if free agency before (not near as much as now though). It is my opinion that because none of these guys really paid off it caused the franchise to revert back to more bargain bin signings. The references to the Modell Model started occuring not too long after these signings.
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--- Antwan Odom (2008) - 5 years, 29.5 mil dollars.
Odom was easily the best of this bunch, but that's not saying much. He wasn't an awful signing, but he far from lived up the investment. He was released after only 3 seasons, and only played in 22 out of 48 games. Outside of a great game against Green Bay (5 sacks!) he only had 6 sacks over 3 seasons. When he was released we had to eat a good chunck of dead money.
--- Lavernous Coles (2009) - 4 years, 28 mil dollars
Coles had a pretty decent career up until joining the Bengals. He was far from an elite receiver, but he had produced. The problem? Fit? Age (32)? Take your pick. Regardless, he came nowhere close to living up to his contract. He was brought in to replace TJ, who had over 900 yards in 15 games the year prior. Coles produced a whopping 514 yards, and never looked the part. He was released after only one season, also resulting in more dead money.
--- Antonio Bryant (2010) - 4 years 28 mil dollars + incentives.
By far the absolute worst signing in franchise history, perhaps among the worst in NFL history. The guy never made it thorugh a single practice, and never actually suited up for a game. His injury was so bad he wasn't even IR'd, he was simply released prior to the season. We ended up paying him around 10 mil dollars for absolutely nothing. His signing also lead to the late desperation signing of TO and the circus and disaster of a season that followed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While the Bengals may have been somewhat late to use free agency like some of their peers, people forget that free agency was still much different way back when. I think with these three consectutive years the Bengals were finally deciding to somewhat modernize their approach.
The problem is, these signings were pretty much all disasters, culminated by the addition of TO onto a team that appeared to have been relatively good on paper. When that team went 4-12, and after Mike just had to eat a ton of dead money with little results, I believe they took a step back from free agency. And when relative success followed from '11-'15, I think that just reinforced the idea that we didn't need to use free agency.
So, as the title states, I really think we need these guys to pay off. If these guys come out and make a really big difference then hopefully that will help build confidence in us going back to the well when we need to add pieces in the future.
PS I also have a similar theory about LB's. The gist is simple. The Bengals invested heavily in Pollack and Thurman, and then Rivers and Mauluga not too long after, which didn't exactly work out the best for the team. In the 10+ years that followed we've used no higher than a 3rd round pick at the position.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-16-2020
We definitely have been bit in the ass in FA before that is for sure.
To be fair a lot of these guys were not in their prime which is different with this FA where everyone we brought in is younger
and about to hit their prime hopefully. Reader, Waynes, Alexander, Bell, Bynes could all still have their best years ahead of
them. Sure hope so, cause I have the same concern in that if they don't we will be hesitant to spend in FA again.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Bruce - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 06:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We definitely have been bit in the ass in FA before that is for sure.
To be fair a lot of these guys were not in their prime which is different with this FA where everyone we brought in is younger
and about to hit their prime hopefully. Reader, Waynes, Alexander, Bell, Bynes could all still have their best years ahead of
them. Sure hope so, cause I have the same concern in that if they don't we will be hesitant to spend in FA again.
i think they crazy overpaid for Waynes. no way he's worth that kind of money. i think they'll regret that one bud.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 06:39 PM)Bruce Wrote: i think they crazy overpaid for Waynes. no way he's worth that kind of money. i think they'll regret that one bud.
I do think they overpaid for him and should of gotten a longer contract for Alexander. Hoping they have an unwritten agreement
where they will extend Alexander. We will see how Waynes shakes out but I think he is an upgrade over Kirkpatrick which is what
we needed, much better tackler. But Waynes does get beat in the passing game a little much for my liking.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - magikod - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 06:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We definitely have been bit in the ass in FA before that is for sure.
To be fair a lot of these guys were not in their prime which is different with this FA where everyone we brought in is younger
and about to hit their prime hopefully. Reader, Waynes, Alexander, Bell, Bynes could all still have their best years ahead of
them. Sure hope so, cause I have the same concern in that if they don't we will be hesitant to spend in FA again.
I'm hoping this FA class is different. Like mentioned before Waynes seems a bit overpaid but lets see how it shakes out.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Wes Mantooth - 06-16-2020
I kinda did a double take when I sign Waynes annual salary but the more I thought about it, there are a great deal of positives.
1.) He's only 27 and in the prime of his career. He'll only be 30 when his contract his up. If you're going to overpay anyone, I'd much rather it be someone like this than a player aging out of his position. While he may not greatly improve, i don't think you have to worry about him falling off the map either.
2.) Waynes is a former first round pick and he went at #11, which was the highest CB off the board that year. Now this obviously does not guarantee him to be elite. But I think what it does say is that he has the physical tools to be successful in this league.
3.) He's great a tackler and helps in the run game. Where have we struggled these last few years? In the run game. There is no doubt he is a huge upgrade over Kirkpatrick in this department.
4.) He entered the league paired with Xavier Rhoades, who at the time was among the games elite. Waynes really wasn't asked to be a #1 corner the first few years of his career. They did need him to step more last season, and as I understand he struggled somewhat on the outside. But it's not as if he's failed to live up to expectation his entire career. It was more recent, and after having to step into a role, that questions arose. I'm hoping this can be atrributed to a lack of experience or that a new scheme will help.
5.) We have an "out" after only 2 seasons, where we can cut bait with relatively little dead money. If he proves to be an grossly overpaid at least it's not a contract where we'll be eating dead money for years to come.
Lastly, I do think you have to consider that for some teams sometimes you have to "overpay". As a team that has struggled recently, and hasn't been the most active in free agency, and is often relunctant to offer much in the way of guarantees, a precedence needs to be set. That being "We're serious about winning".
Sometimes paying more in advance can lead to savings or negotiating power in the future. Going all the way back the Reggie White signing by Green Bay is an example of this. At the time, many considered that deal as them grossly overpaying. And maybe they did. But it also helped turn around the perception of the franchise. No longer were they considered cheap. If overpaying Trae Waynes now helps change the narrative that the Bengals are cheap, or that no one goes there, then I think that has to be considered as added value to the signing.
Maybe Trae Waynes doesn't live up to 14 mil. But regardless, he helps this team. And even if he only plays at, say, a 10 mil dollar level, I can chalk up the remaining 4 to the Bengals helping to improve their reputation and image for potential free agents as being a legitimate destination.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - fredtoast - 06-16-2020
People forget that Marvin got few good free agents early in his tenure.
The numbers don't seem big today, but both John Thornton (6 year $24 million) and Tory James (4 year !4 million) got decent money because they were established starters and sought after in free agency. Ronde Barber was the only player in the league with more interceptions (9) and passes defended (35) than James had in '01-'02. And Thornton was a former 2nd round pick who was starting and playing well for one of the best defenses in the league at Tennessee. Bobbie Williams also ended up being a very big signing, but at the time we signed him he was cheap and considered an underachiever for the Eagles.
Years later in 2011 Nate Clements (2 yr $10.5 million) was a big reason our defense went from 24th in scoring to 9th in just one year.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Truck_1_0_1_ - 06-16-2020
Would also like to point out that Odom was a complete monster in 2009; it could've been PEDs, it could've been a new training regimen that his body didn't heal from, I'm not sure, but I genuinely think he would've been at or near the sack record, in 2009; at least 17-19, his floor.
He was just a different player that year, completely killing OTs against the run and overwhelming others with the pass rush, hell, he had a sack on Joe Thomas and shut down the left side v the run, in that first Browns game.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Wes Mantooth - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 07:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Years later in 2011 Nate Clements (2 yr $10.5 million) was a big reason our defense went from 24th in scoring to 9th in just one year.
No he wasn't. He was a huge downgrade to Jonathan Joseph. The defense improved for a lot of reasons, but he wasn't one of them. You can't possibly believe that one of the reasons the defense got better was by replacing Joseph with Clements.
In fact he was so bad that they actually tried to move him to SS in year 2, only to lose that job to Chris Crocker, and he only ended up starting 9 games. He was out of the league the very next season, never to be seen again.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Synric - 06-16-2020
Trae Waynes is at his best on 3rd downs and is clutch in the 4th quarter/overtime.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 07:48 PM)Synric Wrote: Trae Waynes is at his best on 3rd downs and is clutch in the 4th quarter/overtime.
I like. That is the best time to be at your best, in the clutch.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - jfkbengals - 06-16-2020
Adam Jones did pretty well as a FA addition as well...
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - bengalfan74 - 06-16-2020
I'm with Wes, I feel it's pretty important these free agents do well. We need at least a couple of them to be very good and a couple to be above average to good.
And I think they will be an improvement.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - ElkValleyBengal - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 07:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People forget that Marvin got few good free agents early in his tenure.
The numbers don't seem big today, but both John Thornton (6 year $24 million) and Tory James (4 year !4 million) got decent money because they were established starters and sought after in free agency. Ronde Barber was the only player in the league with more interceptions (9) and passes defended (35) than James had in '01-'02. And Thornton was a former 2nd round pick who was starting and playing well for one of the best defenses in the league at Tennessee. Bobbie Williams also ended up being a very big signing, but at the time we signed him he was cheap and considered an underachiever for the Eagles.
Years later in 2011 Nate Clements (2 yr $10.5 million) was a big reason our defense went from 24th in scoring to 9th in just one year.
Without doing an extensive look at it, Bobbie Williams is probably the best free agent signing in club history.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - SunsetBengal - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 09:02 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Adam Jones did pretty well as a FA addition as well...
His play on the field was great. His off-field issues, not so much.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Jhowdy54 - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 09:02 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Adam Jones did pretty well as a FA addition as well...
CB seems to be the one position we seem to always hit on. Deltha O'Neal and Tory James were awesome pickups. Maybe they seen something in Waynes that they had to have him no matter what.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - impactplaya - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 09:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: His play on the field was great. His off-field issues, not so much.Adam Jones gave this dedense a real injection of swagger
And bravado. Something that has been lacking since 2015 I might add
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Wes Mantooth - 06-16-2020
Another thing to consider with Waynes contract is that we now have a QB who is playing on a rookie deal, which allows tremendous flexibility as far as spending.
I'm not saying this is a reason to go out and just spend recklessly. But it does allow us to be more agressive and take more risks on some of the shorter contracts we offer. There's teams out there paying 30+ million for the position. Hell, even Ryan Tannenhill is making just shy of 30 mil and I wouldn't even put anywhere close to the top 10 QB's.
With Burrow making under 10 mil for the next 4 years, now is the time for us to be proactive. If we overypay, within reason, to add pieces that better this roster then it's not the end of the world. That's the benefit and the beauty of the new CBA.
We had/have money to spend, so why not spend it? We basically swapped a 27 year old Waynes for a decling and aging Dre Kirkpatrick for an extra 3 mil per season. I'm not going to lose sleep over 3 mil cap space if it means making this team as good as we can.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - SunsetBengal - 06-16-2020
(06-16-2020, 10:07 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Adam Jones gave this dedense a real injection of swagger
And bravado. Something that has been lacking since 2015 I might add
Yes he did. He, along with VB and Reggie Nelson brought the attitude, and the thunder. Too bad that two of those three had to melt down, and likely cause the Bengals to lose the most important game they played in, since SB XXIII.
RE: Really Need the Free Agents to Pay Off - Joelist - 06-16-2020
Remember this crop of free agents all have a common trait - good at tackling. After the comically bad tackling of the past few seasons this move was necessary.