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+--- Thread: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin (/thread-25211.html)
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Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - jj22 - 10-11-2020
Yea, I said it.
They gave Zac everything he could want. Let him make all the decisions (Turner over Callahan or at least Pollack for sure, Lou over Jack Del Rio etc.)
They didn't do much for him last year but the players they brought in (Webb) was their guys. Listened to the assistant coaches when it came to Hart. Allowed him to bench Dalton (and Dunlap). This offseason, they gave him a blank check in free agency.
It seems they gave him all the freedom to build his "program", and typically I am critical of them, but outside of making a bad hire, I can't fault them much for their efforts and willingness to change their ways.
The coaches just haven't worked, and sure that is their "fault", but we shouldn't criticize them as if this is completely (yet) the pre Marvin era. They've made some changes in philosophy, and showed a willingness to step aside and those should be acknowledged with hopes of not succumbing to the possibility that only Marvin could stabilize the Organization (as many long said).
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - ochocincos - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 07:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: Yea, I said it.
They gave Zac everything he could want. Let him make all the decisions (Turner over Callahan or at least Pollack for sure, Lou over Jack Del Rio etc.)
They didn't do much for him last year but the players they brought in (Webb) was their guys. Listened to the assistant coaches when it came to Hart. Allowed him to bench Dalton (and Dunlap). This offseason, they gave him a blank check in free agency.
It seems they gave him all the freedom to build his "program", and typically I am critical of them, but outside of making a bad hire, I can't fault them much for their efforts and willingness to change their ways.
The coaches just haven't worked, and sure that is their "fault", but we shouldn't criticize them as if this is completely (yet) the pre Marvin era. They've made some changes in philosophy, and showed a willingness to step aside and those should be acknowledged with hopes of not succumbing to the possibility that only Marvin could stabilize the Organization (as many long said).
Should we not blame the organization for falling for what Zac, the used car salesman, sold them?
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - MickMack - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 07:38 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Should we not blame the organization for falling for what Zac, the used car salesman, sold them?
Assistant used car salesman. Don't fluff his resume.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - jj22 - 10-11-2020
I don't know. Depends on what he sold them on. He said all the right things coming in. I remember him bringing energy.
Hell they even let him remodel the offices! I forgot to mention that.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - Bengalholic - 10-11-2020
The failings and poor decisions concerning the o-line started before Zac and still haven't been fixed. This year, they draft a QB 1OA and do next to nothing to address the o-line, insisting for the 3rd time in the last 4 years that the line would be fine. While I think Zac deserves plenty of his own blame for his own shortcomings, there's no way Mike, Troy, Katie and Duke get a pass. There's plenty of blame to go around right now.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - psychdoctor - 10-11-2020
Bringing in Sweet Lou is starting to look like a decent decision but bringing in Jim Turner has been a disaster.
If Zach Taylor has any gonads he needs to put his foot down and they need to let Jim Turner go by Monday. They need to sit Bobby and play that rookie Hakeem.
Taylor also should acknowledge that he cannot be the head coach and the offensive coordinator. Give Brian Callahan full controller over the offense.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - jj22 - 10-11-2020
You can't fault them for listening to their coaches who constantly said there was no problem with the line and that Fred J and Jordan were developing and would contribute.
They should listen (trust) the coaches.
If Zac wanted to upgrade the Oline, they seem like they would have. They ok'd luxury signings like Bell.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - BengalChris - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 07:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: Yea, I said it.
They gave Zac everything he could want. Let him make all the decisions (Turner over Callahan or at least Pollack for sure, Lou over Jack Del Rio etc.)
They didn't do much for him last year but the players they brought in (Webb) was their guys. Listened to the assistant coaches when it came to Hart. Allowed him to bench Dalton (and Dunlap). This offseason, they gave him a blank check in free agency.
It seems they gave him all the freedom to build his "program", and typically I am critical of them, but outside of making a bad hire, I can't fault them much for their efforts and willingness to change their ways.
The coaches just haven't worked, and sure that is their "fault", but we shouldn't criticize them as if this is completely (yet) the pre Marvin era. They've made some changes in philosophy, and showed a willingness to step aside and those should be acknowledged with hopes of not succumbing to the possibility that only Marvin could stabilize the Organization (as many long said).
I'm sorry, but the only "good" hire made during the entire Mike Brown era of the Bengals was Marvin Lewis.
The Taylor Bengals appear to be little different than the pre-Marvin Bengals. Same ol' ineptness.
Mike Brown and family need to fully step aside - forever! And someone with an actual high production record brought in to make over the organization from the scouting all the way to the assistant coaches and even stadium management.
What on earth qualified Taylor to be a HC? Bullshitting people is not a quality I'd want in a HC. The guy even bullshits himself into believing he knows what he's doing.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - jj22 - 10-11-2020
I didn't say Zac was a good hire.
I'm saying you can't say they didn't give him the tools, freedom, resources to win if his program or system was a winning one.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - QueenCity - 10-11-2020
I fault Mike Brown for trusting an inexperienced coach to finally handle the reigns.
I would of much rather they made Marvin GM and let him hirer a coach
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - ochocincos - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 07:53 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Bringing in Sweet Lou is starting to look like a decent decision but bringing in Jim Turner has been a disaster.
If Zach Taylor has any gonads he needs to put his foot down and they need to let Jim Turner go by Monday. They need to sit Bobby and play that rookie Hakeem.
Taylor also should acknowledge that he cannot be the head coach and the offensive coordinator. Give Brian Callahan full controller over the offense.
He still doesn't know how to utilize a DL properly.
Only 1 DL is really doing anything rushing the passer, and they are losing in the ground game too.
You might say they did well today, but Ingram still averaged 5.2 YPC. That's higher than their average allowed before this game (4.9).
Only 1 player (Lawson) has more than 1.0 sack through 5 games.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - Nati#1 - 10-11-2020
He made some dumb coaching hires.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - Nati#1 - 10-11-2020
That "New Dey" new attitude culture and believing is starting to lose some steam. Zac is losing this team. Everyone is starting to lose faith in him on this team.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - Nati#1 - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 08:05 PM)QueenCity Wrote: I fault Mike Brown for trusting an inexperienced coach to finally handle the reigns.
I would of much rather they made Marvin GM and let him hirer a coach
Should have fired Tobin and promoted Marvin, but Marvin would have probably had the reigns on the teams decisions like having all the veterans start no matter what even if the younger guy was better.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - QueenCity - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 08:26 PM)Nati#1 Wrote: Should have fired Tobin and promoted Marvin, but Marvin would have probably had the reigns on the teams decisions like having all the veterans start no matter what even if the younger guy was better.
Yea... personally I wouldn't of kept Marvin no matter what.
Something needs to happen I'll give Taylor to the bye week but if him and Turner are still coaching by then the Bengals Front office needs to be admitted to the clinic
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - Bengalholic - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 07:58 PM)jj22 Wrote: You can't fault them for listening to their coaches who constantly said there was no problem with the line and that Fred J and Jordan were developing and would contribute.
They should listen (trust) the coaches.
If Zac wanted to upgrade the Oline, they seem like they would have. They ok'd luxury signings like Bell.
In other words, they looked at the horrendous o-line situation, which has been 4 years in the making...said 'yep, we're good because Jim Turner said so and Zac trusts him' and they don't deserve any blame???
FFS, they've been down that road before when Marvin and Alexander insisted that the o-line would be fine...and it hasn't been close to 'fine' since. At what point do they recognize things aren't fine and make it a top priority?
Hell, even when they do makes moves with the o-line in recent years, whether drafting or signings, they just haven't been very good at it...which is why we're in this mess where we have a line that just isn't talented enough to compete on a regular basis.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - lone bengal - 10-11-2020
Nope this team was in trouble well before Zac arrived because of Tobin. Horrific offensive line drafts Ced, Fisher and Price who can’t start over bums at guard in year 3. Had to lose draft position and trade for that head case Cordy Glenn out of desperation, another disaster. He drafted Ross 9th overall and he can’t even be active on game days what a joke. Years and years of terrible line backer play because he can’t draft them. The offensive line sucked under Alexander, Pollock and Turner. The defense sucked under Marvin , Austin and Lou , Jack Del Rio wasn’t saving it.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - jj22 - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 08:32 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In other words, they looked at the horrendous o-line situation, which has been 4 years in the making...said 'yep, we're good because Jim Turner said so and Zac trusts him' and they don't deserve any blame???
FFS, they've been down that road before when Marvin and Alexander insisted that the o-line would be fine...and it hasn't been close to 'fine' since. At what point do they recognize things aren't fine?
Hell, even when they do makes moves with the o-line in recent years, whether drafting or signings, they just haven't been very good at it...which is why we're in this mess where we have a line that just isn't talented enough to compete on a regular basis.
Well they should trust their coaches word, and let them pick their groceries. That's not a philosophical change needed. I don't believe. So I don't fault them for that. The fault will come with how long it takes for them to realize the mistake and move on. Other than that the philosophy and approach I agree with.
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - Bengalholic - 10-11-2020
(10-11-2020, 08:55 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well they should trust their coaches word, and let them pick their groceries. That's not a philosophical change needed. I don't believe. So I don't fault them for that. The fault will come with how long it takes for them to realize the mistake and move on. Other than that the philosophy and approach I agree with.
If you're telling me that the front office looked at this o-line and thought it was good to go, then not only are they to blame, but they're completely inept. Regardless of what the coaches may have told them, they have eyes, supposed talent recognition and 3-4 years of proof that the o-line just hasn't been good and has been a huge part of the problem. If the coaches tell them that John Ross is a superstar, should they take their word for it, despite what reality and on-field proof has shown them?
RE: Don't blame Mike, the FO, or Tobin - jj22 - 10-11-2020
I think it was good they gave Zac the freedom and space. Something people didn't think Mike would do. Something even Marvin seemed to not get. I hope the approach remains when the next HC is hired.