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Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Wes Mantooth - 02-06-2021
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2021/02/05/cincinnati-bengals-offseason-does-team-pay-its-guards/4332056001/
Since 2005, the Cincinnati Bengals have started 18 different players at offensive guard. Six of them were drafted by the franchise. Three of them were signed in free agency to be starters.
The other nine were players who made near the league minimum oror were undrafted free agents.
Over the last 15 years, the Bengals have let guards like Kevin Zeitler and Eric Steinbach walk in free agency and replaced them with inexperienced options and internal candidates. As a result, Cincinnati has gained a reputation as a franchise that didn’t invest in offensive guards.
Here’s a look at how much the Bengals have actually invested in that position and how it compares with other teams in the NFL.
Fact: The Bengals have typically paid guards below market in free agency
In 2020, the average starting NFL guard made $5.85 million. The Bengals had five offensive guards on their roster in 2020. Combined, those five players made $5.55 million, according to Spotrac.
With Cincinnati paying five guards less than what the average starting offensive guard made in 2020, the Bengals allowed 48 sacks and rushed for just 4.1 yards per carry.
The same thing happened in 2019 – the average NFL starting guard made $4.93 million, the Bengals only had one guard making more than $1 million and the offensive line struggled.
Of all the offensive guards the Bengals have acquired in the draft or in free agency since 2005, the average salary for that player is $1 million, which is well below league average.
Over the last 15 years, Cincinnati has signed three starting guards in free agency. In 2004, the Bengals signed Bobbie Williams, who had started 11 games for the Philadelphia Eagles the previous season. Williams solidified the Bengals right guard position for eight seasons, making around an average salary for his position and establishing himself as one of the better guards in the NFL.
After Williams, the Bengals didn’t sign a starting offensive guard until 2019. In one of the first moves of head coach Zac Taylor’s Bengals tenure, Cincinnati signed guard John Miller to a reported three-year, $16.5 million contract, which was just above league average for a starting guard. In 2019, Miller started all 13 games he was healthy for, but the Bengals cut him after the season.
In 2020, the Bengals used some of their $4 million in savings from cutting Miller and signed Xavier Su’a-Filo to a three year, $9 million contract. Su’a-Filo is currently the 41st highest paid guard in the NFL, and last season he made more than the rest of the guards on the Bengals roster combined.
Fiction: The Bengals don’t retain their guards in free agency
More often than not, the Bengals sign their own starting guards on an expiring contract to a new deal.
The notable exceptions came in 2006 and 2016 when Cincinnati let Steinbach and Zeitler walk in free agency and replaced them with a young Andrew Whitworth and Trey Hopkins, respectively.
But over the last 15 years, the Bengals have re-signed a starting guard six different times. The biggest investment came in 2015, when the Bengals signed Clint Boling to the biggest contract a guard has signed in recent history, a five year, $26 million contract.
The list of re-signed guards also includes two deals to Williams that gave him an annual salary of $2.8 million. Cincinnati has also re-upped with spot starters Evan Mathis, Mike Pollak and Alex Redmond.
Fiction: The Bengals don’t invest in guards in the draft.
While the Bengals have only drafted four offensive guards since 2005, that’s just a hair below the league average of 4.75.
In the last 15 years, Cincinnati has selected four offensive guards – Dan Santucci (2007 7th Round), Boling (2011 4th Round), Zeitler (2012 1st Round) and Michael Jordan (2019 4th Round).
Santucci never started a game for the Bengals, but Boling and Zeitler anchored Cincinnati’s offensive line for 12 combined seasons.
The success that duo had with the Bengals explains why Cincinnati has given Jordan so many opportunities. Jordan is one of the 10 most highly-paid guards the Bengals have had in the last 15 years, and Cincinnati moved up in the 2019 NFL Draft to select him.
The average NFL team has selected 3.5 offensive guards in the first five rounds of the NFL Draft over the last 15 years. A fourth round pick at guard is a major investment for any NFL team, the kind of investment that only happens once every four years on average.
Since the Bengals got so much production from the other two guards they drafted highly, Boling and Zeitler, it’s understandable why Jordan has been such a priority over the last two seasons as a former fourth round pick.
Fact: The Bengals have leaned on undrafted free agents at an unusual rate
Alex Redmond. Fred Johnson. Trey Hopkins. Scott Brumfield. Ken Moyer. The list goes on.
Over the last 30 years, there have been 4,346 games where a team started an undrafted free agent at offensive guard, according to Football Reference. So during that time span, each NFL team on average has started an undrafted offensive guard in 135 total games.
The Bengals have started an undrafted free agent at offensive guard in 267 games over the last 30 years. As a result, the Bengals have started an undrafted offensive guard nearly 50 percent more often than the average NFL team.
What does this mean for the 2021 offseason?
Since 2005, the Bengals have spent $23 million on external free agents who play offensive guard. For Cincinnati to be a player for the top available offensive guards in 2020, the Bengals will have to spend much more than that.
The top two free agent guards, Brandon Scherff and Joe Thuney, were the two highest-paid guards in the NFL last season and were on contracts that paid them close to $15 million per year. Over a multi-year deal, Scherff and Thuney are expected to command at least $50 million.
The next tier of free agent guards includes the Arizona Cardinals’ J.R. Sweezy, the Pittsburgh Steelers’ Matt Feiler, the Buffalo Bills’ Jon Feliciano and the Bengals’ Quinton Spain.
In the 2021 NFL Draft, it would be a departure from the norm if the Bengals drafted a guard in the first two rounds. Over the last 15 years, only 31 guards have been selected with one of the first 64 picks.
Northwestern University’s Rashawn Slater could be an interesting first round draft pick because of his ability to play any position on the offensive line, including guard and tackle. In the second round, Cincinnati’s options could include Alabama’s Landon Dickerson and Alex Leatherwood, or Ohio State University’s Wyatt Davis.
The 2021 NFL Draft has a deep class of offensive linemen, and Cincinnati could also use a mid-round pick to bolster the interior offensive line for the second time in the last three seasons.
Since Su’a-Filo, Jordan and undrafted free agent Keaton Sutherland are the only Bengals guards under contract for the 2021 season, Cincinnati will certainly address the position over the next six months.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - TheLeonardLeap - 02-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 10:26 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fiction: The Bengals don’t invest in guards in the draft.
While the Bengals have only drafted four offensive guards since 2005, that’s just a hair below the league average of 4.75.
In the last 15 years, Cincinnati has selected four offensive guards – Dan Santucci (2007 7th Round), Boling (2011 4th Round), Zeitler (2012 1st Round) and Michael Jordan (2019 4th Round).
- - - - - - - - - -
Fact: The Bengals have leaned on undrafted free agents at an unusual rate
Alex Redmond. Fred Johnson. Trey Hopkins. Scott Brumfield. Ken Moyer. The list goes on.
Over the last 30 years, there have been 4,346 games where a team started an undrafted free agent at offensive guard, according to Football Reference. So during that time span, each NFL team on average has started an undrafted offensive guard in 135 total games.
The Bengals have started an undrafted free agent at offensive guard in 267 games over the last 30 years. As a result, the Bengals have started an undrafted offensive guard nearly 50 percent more often than the average NFL team.
I don't know how many people consider picking guys in the 4th+ rounds as "investing" in the position.
Also how many of the teams who drafted less than 4.75 guards since 2005 ALSO didn't spend any meaningful money on them in FA as well?
Fact is the Bengals have drafted 3 guards in the first 3 rounds since Mike Brown took over. (He took over in the 1991 season, but it was after the draft already happened.) Not a single 1 of those 3 were with the Bengals longer than their rookie contract.
- - - - - - - - - -
I'm pretty sure they mean "nearly 100 percent more". 50 percent more of 135 would be 202.5
In other words, they start undrafted guards nearly twice as much as the norm.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - bfine32 - 02-06-2021
What's wrong with signing undrafted players that couldn't start for other teams. Not doing so would be inept.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Synric - 02-06-2021
You think that's bad...The Defensive Line is the highest paid part of the team and it was as bad as the Offensive Line.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Sled21 - 02-06-2021
Isn't it pretty much a given, and always has been, that MB does not place value on the guard position because he thinks they are the most easily replaced position on a team?
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Big_Ern - 02-06-2021
Fact: Joe Burrow's knee was surgically repaired due to poor guard play.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - jason - 02-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 12:31 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Fact: Joe Burrow's knee was surgically repaired due to poor guard play.
To be fair... It was a combination of that, and excellent D line play by Washington.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Luvnit2 - 02-06-2021
The average salary of our 2 top running backs in 2020 far exceeded our 2 starting guards contracts.
Why invest in running backs with a short career span and not OG position?
It boggles the mind.
Our backup RB made more than our 2 starting guards (average of 2 guards that started over season) combined. That is sad and very poor decision by the FO and I blame ZT also as he endorsed the OL prior to 2020 season.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Nicomo Cosca - 02-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 11:13 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What's wrong with signing undrafted players that couldn't start for other teams. Not doing so would be inept.
No. Misdiagnosing phantom injuries is the inept part. Try and keep up, bfred.
As to the OP? Nice work, Wes. Interesting to see the facts laid out all in one post. I do think this part is extremely troubling...
In 2020, the average starting NFL guard made $5.85 million. The Bengals had five offensive guards on their roster in 2020. Combined, those five players made $5.55 million, according to Spotrac.
With Cincinnati paying five guards less than what the average starting offensive guard made in 2020, the Bengals allowed 48 sacks and rushed for just 4.1 yards per carry.
Especially when the absolute main focus should have been ensuring they protected their young franchise QB. It’s mind blowing they felt like they had done enough at OG. And boy did they pay for being wrong.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Big_Ern - 02-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 01:00 PM)jason Wrote: To be fair... It was a combination of that, and excellent D line play by Washington.
True. But MJ literally threw his guy into burrows knee. No awareness. That D Line is great though. During the Palmer interview on McCaffe one of them said they knew burrow was going to get hurt that game.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - bfine32 - 02-06-2021
(02-06-2021, 02:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No. Misdiagnosing phantom injuries is the inept part. Try and keep up, bfred.Wouldn't misdiagnosing a phantom injury actually be a good thing?
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Shake n Blake - 02-07-2021
We've largely ignored the Center position as well, during Mike Brown's tenure. We haven't had a great center since Rich Braham, and he himself was an undrafted guy we kinda stumbled on.
We haven't invested many top picks, and certainly not much $$$ on ANY interior positions. Mikey really only values tackles. I thought this was common knowledge among Bengals fans, but I guess there are some who would argue anything.
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - kevin - 02-07-2021
(02-06-2021, 10:26 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2021/02/05/cincinnati-bengals-offseason-does-team-pay-its-guards/4332056001/
Since 2005, the Cincinnati Bengals have started 18 different players at offensive guard. Six of them were drafted by the franchise. Three of them were signed in free agency to be starters.
The other nine were players who made near the league minimum oror were undrafted free agents.
Over the last 15 years, the Bengals have let guards like Kevin Zeitler and Eric Steinbach walk in free agency and replaced them with inexperienced options and internal candidates. As a result, Cincinnati has gained a reputation as a franchise that didn’t invest in offensive guards.
Here’s a look at how much the Bengals have actually invested in that position and how it compares with other teams in the NFL.
Fact: The Bengals have typically paid guards below market in free agency
In 2020, the average starting NFL guard made $5.85 million. The Bengals had five offensive guards on their roster in 2020. Combined, those five players made $5.55 million, according to Spotrac.
With Cincinnati paying five guards less than what the average starting offensive guard made in 2020, the Bengals allowed 48 sacks and rushed for just 4.1 yards per carry.
The same thing happened in 2019 – the average NFL starting guard made $4.93 million, the Bengals only had one guard making more than $1 million and the offensive line struggled.
Of all the offensive guards the Bengals have acquired in the draft or in free agency since 2005, the average salary for that player is $1 million, which is well below league average.
Over the last 15 years, Cincinnati has signed three starting guards in free agency. In 2004, the Bengals signed Bobbie Williams, who had started 11 games for the Philadelphia Eagles the previous season. Williams solidified the Bengals right guard position for eight seasons, making around an average salary for his position and establishing himself as one of the better guards in the NFL.
After Williams, the Bengals didn’t sign a starting offensive guard until 2019. In one of the first moves of head coach Zac Taylor’s Bengals tenure, Cincinnati signed guard John Miller to a reported three-year, $16.5 million contract, which was just above league average for a starting guard. In 2019, Miller started all 13 games he was healthy for, but the Bengals cut him after the season.
In 2020, the Bengals used some of their $4 million in savings from cutting Miller and signed Xavier Su’a-Filo to a three year, $9 million contract. Su’a-Filo is currently the 41st highest paid guard in the NFL, and last season he made more than the rest of the guards on the Bengals roster combined.
Fiction: The Bengals don’t retain their guards in free agency
More often than not, the Bengals sign their own starting guards on an expiring contract to a new deal.
The notable exceptions came in 2006 and 2016 when Cincinnati let Steinbach and Zeitler walk in free agency and replaced them with a young Andrew Whitworth and Trey Hopkins, respectively.
But over the last 15 years, the Bengals have re-signed a starting guard six different times. The biggest investment came in 2015, when the Bengals signed Clint Boling to the biggest contract a guard has signed in recent history, a five year, $26 million contract.
The list of re-signed guards also includes two deals to Williams that gave him an annual salary of $2.8 million. Cincinnati has also re-upped with spot starters Evan Mathis, Mike Pollak and Alex Redmond.
Fiction: The Bengals don’t invest in guards in the draft.
While the Bengals have only drafted four offensive guards since 2005, that’s just a hair below the league average of 4.75.
In the last 15 years, Cincinnati has selected four offensive guards – Dan Santucci (2007 7th Round), Boling (2011 4th Round), Zeitler (2012 1st Round) and Michael Jordan (2019 4th Round).
Santucci never started a game for the Bengals, but Boling and Zeitler anchored Cincinnati’s offensive line for 12 combined seasons.
The success that duo had with the Bengals explains why Cincinnati has given Jordan so many opportunities. Jordan is one of the 10 most highly-paid guards the Bengals have had in the last 15 years, and Cincinnati moved up in the 2019 NFL Draft to select him.
The average NFL team has selected 3.5 offensive guards in the first five rounds of the NFL Draft over the last 15 years. A fourth round pick at guard is a major investment for any NFL team, the kind of investment that only happens once every four years on average.
Since the Bengals got so much production from the other two guards they drafted highly, Boling and Zeitler, it’s understandable why Jordan has been such a priority over the last two seasons as a former fourth round pick.
Fact: The Bengals have leaned on undrafted free agents at an unusual rate
Alex Redmond. Fred Johnson. Trey Hopkins. Scott Brumfield. Ken Moyer. The list goes on.
Over the last 30 years, there have been 4,346 games where a team started an undrafted free agent at offensive guard, according to Football Reference. So during that time span, each NFL team on average has started an undrafted offensive guard in 135 total games.
The Bengals have started an undrafted free agent at offensive guard in 267 games over the last 30 years. As a result, the Bengals have started an undrafted offensive guard nearly 50 percent more often than the average NFL team.
What does this mean for the 2021 offseason?
Since 2005, the Bengals have spent $23 million on external free agents who play offensive guard. For Cincinnati to be a player for the top available offensive guards in 2020, the Bengals will have to spend much more than that.
The top two free agent guards, Brandon Scherff and Joe Thuney, were the two highest-paid guards in the NFL last season and were on contracts that paid them close to $15 million per year. Over a multi-year deal, Scherff and Thuney are expected to command at least $50 million.
The next tier of free agent guards includes the Arizona Cardinals’ J.R. Sweezy, the Pittsburgh Steelers’ Matt Feiler, the Buffalo Bills’ Jon Feliciano and the Bengals’ Quinton Spain.
In the 2021 NFL Draft, it would be a departure from the norm if the Bengals drafted a guard in the first two rounds. Over the last 15 years, only 31 guards have been selected with one of the first 64 picks.
Northwestern University’s Rashawn Slater could be an interesting first round draft pick because of his ability to play any position on the offensive line, including guard and tackle. In the second round, Cincinnati’s options could include Alabama’s Landon Dickerson and Alex Leatherwood, or Ohio State University’s Wyatt Davis.
The 2021 NFL Draft has a deep class of offensive linemen, and Cincinnati could also use a mid-round pick to bolster the interior offensive line for the second time in the last three seasons.
Since Su’a-Filo, Jordan and undrafted free agent Keaton Sutherland are the only Bengals guards under contract for the 2021 season, Cincinnati will certainly address the position over the next six months.
After Paul Brown died, Mike Brown parted ways with Max Montoya by saying in press : " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ". Montoya went on to more Pro Bowl years with Raiders, Bengals went on to Bungles 1990's.
After parting ways with Zeitler about 25 years later, Mike Brown again said in the press : " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ".
I think THIS answers your question DO BENGALS INVEST IN GUARDS ?, Since MIKE BROWN OWNS and RUNS THE BENGALS.
The answer is not NO, but H#LL NO.
Since Mike Brown has no respect for Guards, it stands to reason that the inside of the O Line is Walmart Special, and this makes rest of O Line Walmart Special due to Weak Up The Middle. Often the Tackles and Centers under Mikey Boy are nothing to brag about either.
I called WLW Radio in 1990's when Max Montaya was in as a guest as a Raider, and Bengals O Line was also on, and the question was, " What Is Wrong With Bengals "...a question that persists ever more into infinity....I called in and reminded them of Mike Brown on Max Montoya saying, " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ". I added that The O Line only gets mentioned on penalties, but it is The O Line responsible for every Touchdown Run, Every Touchdown Pass. Without Blocking, The Playbook doesn't work.....WLW Andy Furman said Max Montoya and every Bengal O Lineman was nodding their head in agreement. Then Furman asked what is wrong with the WLW staff, why did it take this smuck from Dayton to call in with what everybody is agreeing to. Furman then asked kidding if I wanted a job with The Bengals. I kidded back, Tell Mike Brown I'll work for nothing. Furman laughed, That's what Mike is offering , you are hired.
DO BENGALS INVEST IN GUARDS....Mike Brown Answer Is, " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ". That has been Mike Browns answer for 30 Years and the result is No Play-Off Wins in those same 30 Years. What we do have is yet another quarterback in major surgery and major rehab. No running game. No down the field passes. The ball must be thrown in 1 or 2 seconds because the defense pours through the Mike Brown Cheap O Line fast and often. Carson Palmer, Andy Dalton and now Joe Burrow should have filed divorce type lawsuits of Non Support on Mike Brown.
I'll point to a game in Jacksonville a few years ago where Dalton got killed on every play. Marvin took Dalton out early in the 3rd quarter and TV Announcers agreed. Why get Dalton killed, save him for another day. Huber punted out the 2nd half. The TV Announcers said Bengals need to go find some Blocking. That was years ago, We are still waiting on Bengals finding some Blocking. This is the madness that we call Bengals under Mike Brown. They change coaches, they change quarterbacks, but still the same stinky blocking. That is like buying a new suit and not changing your stinky underwear. " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ".
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - TSwigZ - 02-07-2021
(02-06-2021, 03:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Wouldn't misdiagnosing a phantom injury actually be a good thing?
What’s up with the Freddy T pic? Did i miss something?
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - masterpanthera_t - 02-07-2021
(02-07-2021, 03:15 AM)kevin Wrote: After Paul Brown died, Mike Brown parted ways with Max Montoya by saying in press : " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ". Montoya went on to more Pro Bowl years with Raiders, Bengals went on to Bungles 1990's.I only wish Mike Brown had the self awareness to ask himself "Why should I pay myself?".
After parting ways with Zeitler about 25 years later, Mike Brown again said in the press : " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ".
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - bfine32 - 02-07-2021
(02-07-2021, 06:09 AM)TSwigZ Wrote: What’s up with the Freddy T pic? Did i miss something?
Yes
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Gdale_Bengal - 02-07-2021
Think it’s time to pay more attention to the guard position
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - Destro - 02-07-2021
Fact or fiction? O-Line has not been good, regardless of anyone's argument of "investment."
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - schroomytunes - 02-08-2021
I actually think this is the year the Bengals address the offensive line in FA. With the draft being solid this year, and a QB that has promise I don't think it will be ignored. Do I think were going to go after Thuney/Scherff, no, but I do think we will look at the next tier of guys who are solid players, just not pro-bowlers. I expect us to take a tackle in the first 3 rounds of the draft depending on the board, I'm assuming it will be in rd 2. So with that in mind these are guards I think we look at, after cuts:
cuts
o-line)1) Michael Jordan-.975
2) BJ Finney-3.5
3) Bobby Hart 5.9
-10.3 million for o-line help.
Free Agents
1) Jon Feliciano- 3yr/ 21 million
2) Matt Feiler- 3yr/18 million- swing G/RT.
-I think this helps the O-line and we can add some young guys in the draft to strengthen it.
tackles
1) J.Williams
2) F. Johnson
3) A. Adeniji
4) DRAFT PICK (Christian Darrisaw-trade back)
Center
1) B. Price
2) T.Hopkins
Guards
1) Feliciano
2) XSF
3) DRAFT PICK-that can play G/C (Creed Humphrey)
Swing
1) M.Feiler G/RT
RE: Fact of Fiction: Do the Bengals Invest in Guards - kevin - 02-08-2021
(02-08-2021, 05:22 AM)schroomytunes Wrote: I actually think this is the year the Bengals address the offensive line in FA. With the draft being solid this year, and a QB that has promise I don't think it will be ignored. Do I think were going to go after Thuney/Scherff, no, but I do think we will look at the next tier of guys who are solid players, just not pro-bowlers. I expect us to take a tackle in the first 3 rounds of the draft depending on the board, I'm assuming it will be in rd 2. So with that in mind these are guards I think we look at, after cuts:
cuts
1) Michael Jordan-.975
2) BJ Finney-3.5
3) Bobby Hart 5.9
-10.3 million for o-line help.
Free Agents
1) Jon Feliciano- 3yr/ 21 million
2) Matt Feiler- 3yr/18 million- swing G/RT.
-I think this helps the O-line and we can add some young guys in the draft to strengthen it.
tackles
1) J.Williams
2) F. Johnson
3) A. Adeniji
4) DRAFT PICK (Christian Darrisaw-trade back)
Center
1) B. Price
2) T.Hopkins
Guards
1) Feliciano
2) XSF
3) DRAFT PICK-that can play G/C (Creed Humphrey)
Swing
1) M.Feiler G/RT
Jon Feliciano at 7 million a year when Mike Brown says, " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ". Mike Brown didn't pay Montoya or Steinbach or Zeitler and he sure isn't paying Feliciano. " WHY SHOULD I PAY A GUARD ".
I'm not that happy about players you have at Center here, they both stink. Price has had his chances, and he stinks every time he comes in game.
I'm hoping we draft Sewell and at least have Williams and Sewell at Tackles. Since Mike Brown doesn't pay inside the Tackles. If we are lucky enough to still have Sewell on the board at 5, it needs to be the choice, this isn't rocket science. Williams and Sewell is a good young start on fixing this awful, awful O Line.