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+--- Thread: Passing scheme is average at best. (/thread-37443.html)
Passing scheme is average at best. - casear2727 - 01-04-2024
This chart reveals:
X. Average Receiver Separation (X Axis).
The big difference is how much Separation receivers actually have. Joe & Jake are basically in the same offense, the difference is likely due to Joe's arm strength, timing, accuracy and ball-placement.
Y. Throws to an Open Receiver (Y Axis).
Only a slight difference between Burrow and Browning when it comes to throwing to an open receiver.
It is concerning how middle of the road we are even with Burrow. The Ravens could not have schemed any better, major reversal for them.
Separation isn't a WR metric, but it is a Scheme and QB metric.
credit Goodberry.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - bengalfan74 - 01-04-2024
I remember several weeks back some talking heads speaking on Miami and their tune was. "Miami's problem is they have very, very little margin for error". "Against the teams without top notch D's and scheming they're great, unstoppable". "But against the better D's, better teams, the wheels come off a good bit".
I believe that's us in a nut shell as well.
When we're firing on all cylinders with Burrow, everybody's healthy, playing vs. D's that aren't so great at pass rush, don't have high scoring O's we are flying high!! But when we go up against the better D's, better teams, we hit a wall.
And here I go again
IMHO we have got to become more versatile on offense. We have got to go under center more, we have GOT TO get better, more efficient at running the ball.We can't expect the greatest show on turf 90% shotgun and empty set O to carry the load for 17 games +.
If the high flying passing game isn't working, we're very average to just plain bad.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - WeezyBengal - 01-04-2024
I've been on the fence regarding Callahan for some time now but he always had the benefit of the doubt with me.
More recently though, im starting to change my tune towards him. Im (almost) to the point where I want to bring in a new OC, let them handle the offense entirely, and take the offensive portion off of ZT entirely.
I'm frustrated how we go away from things that work on a seemingly week to week basis. More under center, running concepts, screens, player utilization. We show that it works one week, then it completely dissapears the following week.
I also think this offense is stale from a concepts standpoint. They run too much of the same thing. It's partially why teams we play so often (AFC North, Chiefs) have a leg up on us. We have too many tendencies.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - casear2727 - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:14 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I've been on the fence regarding Callahan for some time now but he always had the benefit of the doubt with me.
More recently though, im starting to change my tune towards him. Im (almost) to the point where I want to bring in a new OC, let them handle the offense entirely, and take the offensive portion off of ZT entirely.
I'm frustrated how we go away from things that work on a seemingly week to week basis. More under center, running concepts, screens, player utilization. We show that it works one week, then it completely dissapears the following week.
I also think this offense is stale from a concepts standpoint. They run too much of the same thing. It's partially why teams we play so often (AFC North, Chiefs) have a leg up on us. We have too many tendencies.
I cannot allow myself to be upset with Callahan and hope for a change at OC until Zac gives up play calling and the offense to Callahan. Zac is the offense mastermind, give Callahan a shot at running it and if he fails then can him, would be my approach. Until then Callahan is simply a support piece.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:41 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I cannot allow myself to be upset with Callahan and hope for a change at OC until Zac gives up play calling and the offense to Callahan. Zac is the offense mastermind, give Callahan a shot at running it and if he fails then can him, would be my approach. Until then Callahan is simply a support piece.
And thus having 6 guys on the headset to collectively think up what plays to call has succeeded in making absolutely nobody to blame because none of them have gotten a chance on their own to prove or disprove themselves.
As far as OCs who don't call plays go, my opinion is that if they were actually a good OC they wouldn't let the meat of their job that determines if anyone thinks they're any good or not get taken away from them for any length of time. Imagine Sean Payton or Andy Reed being a non-playcalling OC for 5 years. It would never happen.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Forever Spinning Vinyl - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:14 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I've been on the fence regarding Callahan for some time now but he always had the benefit of the doubt with me.
More recently though, im starting to change my tune towards him. Im (almost) to the point where I want to bring in a new OC, let them handle the offense entirely, and take the offensive portion off of ZT entirely.
I'm frustrated how we go away from things that work on a seemingly week to week basis. More under center, running concepts, screens, player utilization. We show that it works one week, then it completely dissapears the following week.
I also think this offense is stale from a concepts standpoint. They run too much of the same thing. It's partially why teams we play so often (AFC North, Chiefs) have a leg up on us. We have too many tendencies.
That is my biggest issue with Zac Taylor.
I find it a bit arrogant for a 30 nothing coach to walk into the league with very little experience and think that he's smart enough to run a NFL sideline during a game and be the offensive play caller and still be effective. Something has to give with that small amount of experience and a flowing offense is pushed aside because some 'kid' with the playbook gets far too pass happy with his favorite toy. His offense reads more like ''OOOOOH, I wanna try this play now.'', followed by, ''I like this play. Let's run this one.'' than it reads like an offensive plan that was worked on during the week for a specific opponent.
I also RARELY see open WRs from a scheme. Apparently, Zac's only idea of scheming someone open is a WR screen.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Millhouse - 01-04-2024
So this basically helps reinforce my armchair eye tests of many a games where it just seems almost every pass seemed to be contested. I know I'm not the only one that has noticed this either, especially when we see opposing receivers more open on our own defense (maybe not saying much).
What are some things that they should try to do more of? More motion pre-snap, more under-center, a better run-game, and/or all the mentioned? Imo it really shouldn't be too complicated as there are some basic strategies that should always be in use such as disguise and surprise while attacking the defense's weakness's while protecting their own. Going out there with a stubborn mindset ignoring those things just reduces chances for a Super Bowl win.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Soonerpeace - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And thus having 6 guys on the headset to collectively think up what plays to call has succeeded in making absolutely nobody to blame because none of them have gotten a chance on their own to prove or disprove themselves.
As far as OCs who don't call plays go, my opinion is that if they were actually a good OC they wouldn't let the meat of their job that determines if anyone thinks they're any good or not get taken away from them for any length of time. Imagine Sean Payton or Andy Reed being a non-playcalling OC for 5 years. It would never happen.
That’s not even remotely accurate. It’s very similar to many teams specifically Jax. Zac has certain coaches tied to situations. Redzone, third and short or short yardage, 2 point play etc. Picher is in charge of third and long. When those situations arise they are suppose to have a play ready as an alternate to Zac’s. If he wants another option he’ll say Dan what you got? It’d be a madhouse and cause tons of penalties which they are like #1 least penalized
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Joelist - 01-04-2024
Caesars chart is a big symptom of the need to evolve the scheme on offense. As it stands with its emphasis on shotgun and spread offense concepts plus its predictability (especially on route designs) it is both easy to predict and a VERY difficult offense for ANY OL to be good in. We do need an injection of speed (some may be on the roster) and a back who consistently gets past the first guy but a lot is scheme too. We need better run pass balance and also more under center (it will never be majority because Burrow likes himself some shotgun) and also new route designs, all to make the offense less easy to predict.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - WeezyBengal - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:55 PM)Millhouse Wrote: So this basically helps reinforce my armchair eye tests of many a games where it just seems almost every pass seemed to be contested. I know I'm not the only one that has noticed this either, especially when we see opposing receivers more open on our own defense (maybe not saying much).
What are some things that they should try to do more of? More motion pre-snap, more under-center, a better run-game, and/or all the mentioned? Imo it really shouldn't be too complicated as there are some basic strategies that should always be in use such as disguise and surprise while attacking the defense's weakness's while protecting their own. Going out there with a stubborn mindset ignoring those things just reduces chances for a Super Bowl win.
They were doing a lot of this with Burrow. They did a lot of motion, some under center (when he was healthy).
It's really hard to tell with Browning because we don't know if they are running stuff dumbed down because of him. For example, they ran dagger concept on pretty much every 3rd and long against the Chiefs. It got to the point where the Chiefs were literally sitting on routes because they knew what was coming.
Why did we continue to call dagger concept? Was it because our coaches suck? Is it because they know Browning is limited in what he can do?
I used to think it was the latter, but Im just not so sure that our offensive playcalling and schemes don't entirely suck.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - WeezyBengal - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:23 PM)Joelist Wrote: Caesars chart is a big symptom of the need to evolve the scheme on offense. As it stands with its emphasis on shotgun and spread offense concepts plus its predictability (especially on route designs) it is both easy to predict and a VERY difficult offense for ANY OL to be good in. We do need an injection of speed (some may be on the roster) and a back who consistently gets past the first guy but a lot is scheme too. We need better run pass balance and also more under center (it will never be majority because Burrow likes himself some shotgun) and also new route designs, all to make the offense less easy to predict.
I hope injecting speed in the slot and tight end will be an area of focus this off-season.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - TheLeonardLeap - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:00 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: It’d be a madhouse and cause tons of penalties which they are like #1 least penalized
Except we DO have the most delay of game penalties in the NFL this year. We have also called 3 timeouts this year on our opening offensive drive of a game this year, the drive where you should be the most prepared you will ever be all game.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - casear2727 - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:23 PM)Joelist Wrote: Caesars chart is a big symptom of the need to evolve the scheme on offense. As it stands with its emphasis on shotgun and spread offense concepts plus its predictability (especially on route designs) it is both easy to predict and a VERY difficult offense for ANY OL to be good in. We do need an injection of speed (some may be on the roster) and a back who consistently gets past the first guy but a lot is scheme too. We need better run pass balance and also more under center (it will never be majority because Burrow likes himself some shotgun) and also new route designs, all to make the offense less easy to predict.
I absolutely agree, Joe your takes have been so good lately.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Soonerpeace - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except we DO have the most delay of game penalties in the NFL this year. We have also called 3 timeouts this year on our opening offensive drive of a game this year, the drive where you should be the most prepared you will ever be all game.
Regardless it’s not a free for on the headset
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Garrus - 01-04-2024
I am not football savvy enough to argue what the offenses problems are, I can only do the eye test which isn't always the best. But it just seems to me for whatever reason, we rarely throw over the middle with like quick slants or use the middle of the field often at all. I think Burrow likes boundary passes the most, but Browning didn't seem to do it much either so IDK. Maybe it is how the scheme is designed? Maybe defenses know we would like to do that, so they defend it often?
Hard for me to say but it does seem if you have a QB like Burrow and WR like Chase, we should be top 5 in offense every year, but we're not. The offense has been inconsistent basically the entire Burrow era, where they will go through periods where they look amazing, and then stall and not get a first down for 5+ drives.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - bengalfan74 - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:55 PM)Millhouse Wrote: So this basically helps reinforce my armchair eye tests of many a games where it just seems almost every pass seemed to be contested. I know I'm not the only one that has noticed this either, especially when we see opposing receivers more open on our own defense (maybe not saying much).
What are some things that they should try to do more of? More motion pre-snap, more under-center, a better run-game, and/or all the mentioned? Imo it really shouldn't be too complicated as there are some basic strategies that should always be in use such as disguise and surprise while attacking the defense's weakness's while protecting their own. Going out there with a stubborn mindset ignoring those things just reduces chances for a Super Bowl win.
Right
It seems they are just determined to line up our guys against your guys (because we're better) and run out the shotgun O with the same tired routes and same tired scheme the entire game.
Zac and JB and Co. have got to "mix it up more" They've got to IMHO get out of all the RPO plays. Get into more under center/play action. And figure out how to not be the worst team in the NFL at running the ball.
They have the least rushing yards in the NFL, worst yards per game. The Ravens are #1 the Browns and Steelers are like #10 and #11 or so. We can't just sit back and be a one trick pony.
Teams can just sit back and know there's a big chance we're going to run play A, play B is next and so on. And they know it. I fully believe that's why Browning had some success in that 3 game stretch. We weren't as predictable.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Synric - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:24 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: They were doing a lot of this with Burrow. They did a lot of motion, some under center (when he was healthy).
It's really hard to tell with Browning because we don't know if they are running stuff dumbed down because of him. For example, they ran dagger concept on pretty much every 3rd and long against the Chiefs. It got to the point where the Chiefs were literally sitting on routes because they knew what was coming.
Why did we continue to call dagger concept? Was it because our coaches suck? Is it because they know Browning is limited in what he can do?
I used to think it was the latter, but Im just not so sure that our offensive playcalling and schemes don't entirely suck.
Was it the Race Concept? The outside receiver running the dig and the underneath receiver running a pivot?
That's been Joe Burrow special since LSU. Between Chase, Boyd, Tee, and Hurst it was deadly in 2022.
Edit: Watching Joey B wrap that dig route when he shouldn't are some of his best highlights.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - NUGDUKWE - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 02:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And thus having 6 guys on the headset to collectively think up what plays to call has succeeded in making absolutely nobody to blame because none of them have gotten a chance on their own to prove or disprove themselves.
As far as OCs who don't call plays go, my opinion is that if they were actually a good OC they wouldn't let the meat of their job that determines if anyone thinks they're any good or not get taken away from them for any length of time. Imagine Sean Payton or Andy Reed being a non-playcalling OC for 5 years. It would never happen.
This is pretty much my exact same thinking. No way to know where to give credit or blame. I guess in the end it all still has to end with Zac but more clarity would be nice. I also thought the same thing that Callahan should not like this situation because it's going to prevent him from getting HC jobs.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - WeezyBengal - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 04:03 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right
It seems they are just determined to line up our guys against your guys (because we're better) and run out the shotgun O with the same tired routes and same tired scheme the entire game.
Zac and JB and Co. have got to "mix it up more" They've got to IMHO get out of all the RPO plays. Get into more under center/play action. And figure out how to not be the worst team in the NFL at running the ball.
They have the least rushing yards in the NFL, worst yards per game. The Ravens are #1 the Browns and Steelers are like #10 and #11 or so. We can't just sit back and be a one trick pony.
Teams can just sit back and know there's a big chance we're going to run play A, play B is next and so on. And they know it. I fully believe that's why Browning had some success in that 3 game stretch. We weren't as predictable.
They ran a ton of motion when Burrow was healthy. I think I remember they were top 5 in the league with pre snap motion.
A lot of it went away when Browning went under center. I think they limited the playbook quite a bit.
RE: Passing scheme is average at best. - Soonerpeace - 01-04-2024
(01-04-2024, 03:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except we DO have the most delay of game penalties in the NFL this year. We have also called 3 timeouts this year on our opening offensive drive of a game this year, the drive where you should be the most prepared you will ever be all game.
Interesting deep dive 9 delay of game by the offense. 1 by the defense. All the delay of games with Joe as the QB. Also looked at previous years and we were middle of the pack.