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This or that... - WeezyBengal - 11-12-2024
This:
![[Image: rankins.png]](https://i.ibb.co/tbb7wzq/rankins.png)
Or that:
![[Image: Reader.png]](https://i.ibb.co/m9tNhmj/Reader.png)
This:
![[Image: Stone.png]](https://i.ibb.co/7Yw9SGT/Stone.png)
Or that:
![[Image: Bates.png]](https://i.ibb.co/0DfRtTn/Bates.png)
Swing and a miss...
RE: This or that... - Bengalbug - 11-13-2024
(11-12-2024, 03:05 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This:
Or that:
This:
Or that:
Swing and a miss...
Letting bates leave was a miss, we know that. Not many (ANY?) safeties will replace that production. However, it’s not like Reader is tearing it up in DET. One of the moves is a colossal failure, the other, while still a miss… doesn’t really move the needle. In my opinion.
RE: This or that... - J24 - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 12:12 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Letting bates leave was a miss, we know that. Not many (ANY?) safeties will replace that production. However, it’s not like Reader is tearing it up in DET. One of the moves is a colossal failure, the other, while still a miss… doesn’t really move the needle. In my opinion.
disagree on Reader; his presence alone would help free up Hill and Hendrickson more often.
RE: This or that... - Bengalbug - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 04:16 PM)J24 Wrote: disagree on Reader; his presence alone would help free up Hill and Hendrickson more often.
Maybe… Hendrickson is having his best season ever. You might be able to make the same case for hill.
Maybe rankins is freeing up hill and Hendrickson more often…. I’m kidding (mostly). But it’s something you have to consider.
RE: This or that... - CJD - 11-13-2024
I was furious when we let Reader go.
The reason that our 2021 and, to an extent, our 2022 defenses were so effective was because Lou had several players that were "worth" more than 1 player.
Trey Hendrickson covers up the lack of a pass rush from the other side because he's so dominant.
Jessie Bates covered up a lot of the communication and missed assignment issues in the secondary because he could cover a lot of ground very quickly and had phenomenal field vision to anticipate where routes may come open.
DJ Reader was so good at stopping the run that he allowed Lou to essentially have an "8 man box" without having to creep a safety down into the box. This meant we had better coverage on the backend or could blitz more players without creating the risk that usually occurs in those types of plays.
The reason our defense has been so bad this year is because we let two of those three players go.
Sheldon Rankins, at his absolute best, is a fine pass rusher. He only had 1 truly dominant season and it was 6 years ago. His 2023 season only looked good because we, the Bengals, chose to never block him, allowing to double his sack count in a single game. In interviews, he basically said "I was waiting for them to even try and block me, but they never did."
DJ Reader may not be as good this year as previous years. He is coming off of injury after all. But even with this year's production, he would still be the best DT on this team and would greatly improve the defense.
RE: This or that... - ochocincos - 11-13-2024
Let's also add...
"That" combined cost - $27 mill APY
"This" combined cost - $19.25 mill APY
If trying to retain the expensive WR2, I can see why they went with "this," but it might have been smarter to keep "that" and get a cheaper vet WR2 or 1st/2nd round draft pick to cover WR2 and let Higgins walk rather than tag.
RE: This or that... - TecmoBengals - 11-13-2024
So were Pratt and Wilson the wrong guys to give the bigger deals to on the defensive side of the ball?
Should it have been Bates and perhaps Reader?
RE: This or that... - Au165 - 11-13-2024
A lot of "that" is an issue because our drafting that kind of went into the equation to also get younger didn't pan out. In reality, our complete inability to draft has killed this team and the FA was bad attempts to try to cover for it. It goes beyond these two guys and you can look to our inability to draft OL as well, or our unwillingness to move up for a TE and standpat while all of them go before we pick.
We don't navigate the draft well. We overvalue volume instead of going and getting "our guy". We take who's left instead of trading an additional fringe player to go get someone with a higher floor. That leaves us constantly swinging at high variance players that may have high ceilings but we never get to them because we don't develop all that well either.
RE: This or that... - Frank Booth - 11-13-2024
Reader, Bates, Hendrickson, Awuzie, and Hilton were the 5 best defensive players on the 21 and 22 teams. They have not replaced 3 of the top 5 adequately. They've actually been horrible at replacing those top 3
RE: This or that... - Bengalbug - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:10 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: So were Pratt and Wilson the wrong guys to give the bigger deals to on the defensive side of the ball?
Should it have been Bates and perhaps Reader?
Non Pass rushing LBs are the cheapest guys on the field. I am not even sure the two combined makes what bates does.
RE: This or that... - Bengalbug - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:26 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Reader, Bates, Hendrickson, Awuzie, and Hilton were the 5 best defensive players on the 21 and 22 teams. They have not replaced 3 of the top 5 adequately. They've actually been horrible at replacing those top 3
It’s actually nuts, but the bengals are giving up less YPG in 2024 (344.5), than they did in 2021 (361) and 2022 (360).
The bengals got better in the post season, but it’s not as if this unit is doing much different/worse. If the bengals had won 2-3 of the games they lost, no one would be talking about this.
RE: This or that... - Bengalbug - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 04:26 PM)CJD Wrote: I was furious when we let Reader go.
The reason that our 2021 and, to an extent, our 2022 defenses were so effective was because Lou had several players that were "worth" more than 1 player.
Trey Hendrickson covers up the lack of a pass rush from the other side because he's so dominant.
Jessie Bates covered up a lot of the communication and missed assignment issues in the secondary because he could cover a lot of ground very quickly and had phenomenal field vision to anticipate where routes may come open.
DJ Reader was so good at stopping the run that he allowed Lou to essentially have an "8 man box" without having to creep a safety down into the box. This meant we had better coverage on the backend or could blitz more players without creating the risk that usually occurs in those types of plays.
The reason our defense has been so bad this year is because we let two of those three players go.
Sheldon Rankins, at his absolute best, is a fine pass rusher. He only had 1 truly dominant season and it was 6 years ago. His 2023 season only looked good because we, the Bengals, chose to never block him, allowing to double his sack count in a single game. In interviews, he basically said "I was waiting for them to even try and block me, but they never did."
DJ Reader may not be as good this year as previous years. He is coming off of injury after all. But even with this year's production, he would still be the best DT on this team and would greatly improve the defense.
I just posted this, but it’s wild. Bengals are giving up less YPG than they did in 2021 and 2022.
RE: This or that... - ochocincos - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:10 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: So were Pratt and Wilson the wrong guys to give the bigger deals to on the defensive side of the ball?
Should it have been Bates and perhaps Reader?
Pratt's and Wilson's are pretty low compared to other off-ball LBs like Roquan Smith, Fred Warner, Tremaine Edmunds, and Patrick Queen.
All those dudes are >$13.5 mill
Wilson is 30th highest paid LB at $9 mill APY, Pratt is 43rd at $6.75 mill APY.
Bengals have over $50 mill in 2024 allocated cap toward Hendrickson, Hill, Hubbard, and Rankins.
On the offensive side, the Bengals only had $70-80 mill in cap allocated there in 2021-2022.
It's jumped up to nearly $120 mill this season.
Burrow and Higgins are occupying $50 mill of that.
RE: This or that... - SunsetBengal - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:39 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: It’s actually nuts, but the bengals are giving up less YPG in 2024 (344.5), than they did in 2021 (361) and 2022 (360).
The bengals got better in the post season, but it’s not as if this unit is doing much different/worse. If the bengals had won 2-3 of the games they lost, no one would be talking about this.
The difference is that the first group gave up yards between the 20's and then got hard to score on when the field shrank. I wonder how the number of explosive plays given up compares?
RE: This or that... - J24 - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:39 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: It’s actually nuts, but the bengals are giving up less YPG in 2024 (344.5), than they did in 2021 (361) and 2022 (360).
The bengals got better in the post season, but it’s not as if this unit is doing much different/worse. If the bengals had won 2-3 of the games they lost, no one would be talking about this.
They were 18th in points in 2021 and 7th in Points in 2022. Part of Lous strategy is give up yards not points.
RE: This or that... - CJD - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:40 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I just posted this, but it’s wild. Bengals are giving up less YPG than they did in 2021 and 2022.
True, but I still wonder how many big plays we've given up in the passing game because we've had to send safeties and nickelbacks to occupy the box more with Reader gone than we've needed to in previous years.
RE: This or that... - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:39 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: It’s actually nuts, but the bengals are giving up less YPG in 2024 (344.5), than they did in 2021 (361) and 2022 (360).
The bengals got better in the post season, but it’s not as if this unit is doing much different/worse. If the bengals had won 2-3 of the games they lost, no one would be talking about this.
Thanks for this, still in the end it is points that matter the most...
(11-13-2024, 06:08 PM)J24 Wrote: They were 18th in points in 2021 and 7th in Points in 2022. Part of Lous strategy is give up yards not points.
What are we ranked this year in terms of giving up points? 32nd? lol
RE: This or that... - samhain - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 05:40 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I just posted this, but it’s wild. Bengals are giving up less YPG than they did in 2021 and 2022.
The 21 and 22 defenses had a knack for making huge plays at critical times. This team has no such magic.
RE: This or that... - J24 - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 06:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks for this, still in the end it is points that matter the most...
What are we ranked this year in terms of giving up points? 32nd? lol
29th!
RE: This or that... - Nate (formerly eliminate08) - 11-13-2024
(11-13-2024, 06:17 PM)samhain Wrote: The 21 and 22 defenses had a knack for making huge plays at critical times. This team has no such magic.
That too, it is okay if you give up the yardage if you can get a stop or a turnover to limit points.
We did that a lot in our SB and AFC Championship years.
(11-13-2024, 06:31 PM)J24 Wrote: 29th!
Thought it would be something like that. Not good.