(06-02-2015, 08:11 PM)hollodero Wrote: I won't get into this, I personally believe the spiritual connection is nonsense, but that's just me. What do I know.

What I do believe is that compassion can change things. The will to live, be it because someone loves you and is with you, has an effect on the actual healing process. Whoever gives himself up to the illness is more probable to die. Because of unconscious acts, less attentiveness, less will to really do what needs to be done in order to get well, and so on and so on. But I think that's it.

- But I  really just want to comment on this entanglement thing. Whoever wrote this suggestion probably read something about that without properly understanding it. I don't do either. But the whole idea behind it does not support the idea presented there. To put it short: A certain particle with no spin decays in two particles with spin. Now since the overall spin has to remain the same, these two particles have one "up" and one "down" spin, which sum up to zero spin - like the initial particle had. Now the trick is, and that's what all this entanglement is about: The spin of the two particles resulting from the decay stays undefined. Undefined until ONE particle is "forced" to decide for a definite spin value (by a specific measurement). And when this particle "decides" on its spin, the other particle immediately has a definite (the opposite) spin, too. Immediately, and even if they are in a long distance to each other. This way - by forcing one particle to decide on its spin, therefore having an immediate effect on the other particle, whereever it might be -, information transfer can be achieved that beats the speed of light barrier.

That's it. That's what's to that whole entanglement thing. I am not a big fan of taking such findings and misuse them to support some metaphysical beliefs. What seems to be the case here.

(06-02-2015, 08:30 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Well, I believe in possibilities. And I believe that we have yet to become all knowledgeable. I have faced multiple health challenges, and in the process of healing in these instances, I have employed meditation as an effort to have a dialogue with the affected part of my body. Proactive/encouragement for that part to respond positively to what was being introduced to correct the situation. It worked for me, though I have no clinical proof to offer. And if faced with another challenge, I'm certainly not going to withhold and die just to prove that it worked when applied.

Bottom line is I can't rule out anything, because I feel that collectively we haven't discovered all that exists for us. So, why not embrace the possibility?

(06-02-2015, 07:38 PM)xxlt Wrote: I would like to know what y'all think of this (and it is rather long). It is from the Institure of Noetic Sciences (IONS) website:

IONS’ Pioneering Work on “Distant Healing” Suggests Further Study Warranted
Spiritual healing—the use of spiritual practices such as prayer to help cure or improve an illness— has been part of traditional medicine for thousands of years. According to the World Heath Organization, 80 percent of the world practices some form of traditional medicine incorporating what could be described as having a spiritual basis. And while Western cultures acknowledge the historical significance of these practices, their medical models dismiss spirituality, belief, and consciousness as legitimate healthcare methods. Ironically, much of the Western world does engage in a spiritual healing practice as they pray for the health and well-being of self and others.
Indeed, Americans pray a lot for health. According to an article in the April 26, 2004, issue of The Archives of Internal Medicine, an estimated one-third of adults use prayer, in addition to conventional medical care and complementary and alternative therapies, for health concerns. A 2008 study by Brandeis University found that of the 90 percent of Americans who claim to make a spiritual connection with God every day, three-quarters pray for themselves, families, and friends. Research conducted by Barna Research Group in 2009 reports that 79 percent of Americans believe that prayer speeds recovery.
With so much evidence suggesting widespread acceptance of prayer as a healing practice, why has it not been adopted by conventional medicine? A deep history of church-state dichotomy and a medical establishment that privileges rational, conventional approaches limit the acceptance of what are considered “non-scientific” ideas of healing. And while considerable research on meditation practice and the placebo effect have shown the efficacy of “praying for oneself,” the healing impact of praying for someone else is a considerable leap, nor is there a widely accepted theory on how such an effect would work. That hasn’t affected belief: According to a 2004 survey of adult Americans, the most popular “alternative healing practice” was “prayer for self”; the second most popular was “prayer for others.”
The Institute of Noetic Sciences has been a pioneer in the study of intention and prayer on healing. As part of this work, the Institute initiated what came to be called “The Love Study” to test the effects of compassionate intention on people afflicted with a serious illness. The scientific objective was to contribute to and push the boundaries of a nascent discourse in modern medicine on what facilitates the healing process beyond what is known conventionally.
The Study
The goal of “The Love Study,” so-called because it was partially funded by the Institute for Research on Unlimited Love, was to measure what would happen in the nervous system of one person when exposed to strong intentions from another person at a distance. This laboratory study recruited long-term, loving couples as participants, and rather than specifically testing prayer per se, trained the healthy partner (the other partner had cancer) in the cultivation of compassionate intention—directing selfless love to another—and explored whether training and practice in sending intentions would have any measurable effects. Rather than attempting to assess healing outcomes, the study focused on measuring short-term changes in the receiver’s physiological state under double-blind, controlled conditions. A total of 36 couples participated in the study: 12 in the trained group, 10 in a “wait” group, and 14 in the control group.
The Outcomes
Analysis of data combined across all couples showed that the receiver’s skin conductance increased to a statistically significant degree over the course of the average 10-second intentional sending period. A half-second after the sender began to direct their intention, the receiver’s average skin conductance began to rise. It continued to rise and peaked at the end of the 10-second period, then it began to decline. The skin conductance of receivers in all three groups responded when their partner began sending a compassionate intention, but the control group’s response subsided after 4 seconds, the wait group’s response subsided after 5 seconds, and the trained group’s response subsided after 8 seconds. These results were quite unexpected, because when a person is asked to relax quietly in a shielded room with no external stimuli, their skin conductance normally declines, indicating relaxation.
The Implications
One theory that suggests why such effects occur is related to “quantum entanglement,” which is based on the mathematics of quantum theory and since verified many times in physics laboratories. This phenomenon indicates that at deep levels of reality, physical systems are interconnected beyond the ordinary constraints of distance in space or time. If this property is truly as fundamental as it appears to be, then in principle everything in the universe may be connected at a basic energetic level, allowing for distant influences reminiscent of those observed in this experiment.
Those who have grown up with Western medicine tend to make assumptions about Western versus non-Western approaches to disease and treatment. They judge one to be modern and the other primitive; one scientific and the other based on superstition. But evidence such as that shown in The Love Study demonstrates that the focusing of one’s thoughts and intentions on another does have a measurable effect, and that presumably when the thoughts are of a healing nature, the impact is potentially healing as well. While this one experiment is not definitive, it is consistent with three dozen earlier studies, and it raises enough questions to warrant further research and refinements in methodology. The experiment was published in 2008 as “Compassionate Intention as a Therapeutic Intervention by Partners of Cancer Patients” in Explore: the Journal of Science and Healing.

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So, IONS was started by an astronaut who knew all kinds of stuff (obviously) about the natural sciences and while (literally) flying back from the moon had this revelation that science was incomplete. So, he started IONS. Now, maybe this is what space does to your brain, or maybe he is right and there is a whole dimension of knowing that natural sciences doesn't tap. I imagine the religious folk will be very affirmative of things like the power of prayer, because you know, God. But IONS seems to take no stand on God or gods but rather acknowledges forces within and around us that while not (necessarily) divine are outside the natural science realm. Their website talks alot about intuitively knowing things and how we are all interconnected with everything in the universe even though science can't fully measure or illustrate that connectedness. I think these are powerful ideas and not unique to IONS. You can find them in native American spiritual traditions, among other places. So what do you all think? Cool shit? Weird shit? Bull shit? I am inclined to think cool but I am very curious to know what others, especially the agnostics and atheists think about all of this. (Yeah, it is an unwieldy topic, thanks for noticing.) Feel free to browse the IONS site before responding. Then come back and say some smart things about all of it. That goes for you Jesus fan boys too. All welcome in this discussion, but please try not to proselytize (convert) anybody. Just say what you think about noetics and forms of knowledge distinct from knowledge yielded by the natural sciences.

(06-02-2015, 10:03 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Random thoughts...

This phenomenon, for lack of a better word, may not be outside of the natural world.  Just outside our current understanding of the natural world.

In medicine the questions remain the same, but the answers change as our understanding evolves.

Placebos are clinically proven to work even when some people know it is a placebo.  Obecalp is sold over the counter overseas.  It is placebo spelled backwards.

I'm bothered by the small sample sizes and the methodology isn't described well.  I'm not sure what they did and how it was measured.

Skin temperature?  Really?  The article suggests spiritual healing can occur over distances, but rather than measure healing or aspects of healing they measured skin temperatures.  Giant leap from skin temps to spiritual healing.  I understand what they are implying, but science requires more than raw data to suggest an implication.

(06-03-2015, 03:59 AM)The Noob Avenger Wrote: I'm a deist so I'm not a huge proponent of the power of prayer but there's plenty of stuff out there that still can't be explained so who knows.

It's interesting though. The human body is an incredible machine capable of some crazy shit.

(06-03-2015, 10:55 AM)Beaker Wrote: I am the science teacher.

I don't believe in religion, but I do believe in spirituality. I think there can be a creative power beyond our perception, just not in the way put forth by religion. That said, I also believe in the healing power of spirituality. I think it goes way beyond prayer. I think prayer is only one way of connecting with spirit. There are other eastern disciplines such as meditation, reiki, spiritual healing, healing touch, chakras and more that also seem to accomplish increased healing or cure.

My own example was visiting a healing touch practitioner after my eye surgery. She focused on healing my retina. After her visit, I developed scar tissue on the retina. The doctor said it was the result of unexplained extra cell growth. I think the healing touch simply overdid it and produced too many cells. That is one example. As you know, there are massive amounts of anecdotal evidence for the power of connecting beyond the physical. I simply think we just don't have the technology, or actual capabilities to properly study it via the scientific method....yet.

(06-03-2015, 12:05 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Another consideration, is the spiritual healing a result of the placebo effect or independent of it?

(06-03-2015, 09:22 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Over 90% of all healing is done by the body itself. Medicine generally just assists the body in the healing process. And it is scientifically proven that your moods and attitudes can impact aspects of healing. For example, people with clinical depression are also inclined to develop certain physical ailments as well. Depression impacts the immune system. If your mental state can impact your physical well-being in a negative way (example: stress), it only stands to reason that it can impact it in positive ways as well (reduced stress). I think we are learning that we can have more control over our personal healing process than we previously thought. That doesn't me we can consciously direct cells to do certain things in certain areas of the body. But it does appear that we can impact the overall environment those cells are in and encourage certain cells to thrive with certain attitudes or dispositions.

This makes me wonder about healing miracle stories from the past. While I generally discount these stories (or take them upon pure faith with regards to religion), I wonder if some people in the past haven't had a knack for encouraging positive thoughts and feelings in others (through meditation, relaxation, hypnotism, etc.) and, thereby, indirectly assisted them in healing themselves to such a degree that people might have thought of it as miraculous.

(06-03-2015, 09:22 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Over 90% of all healing is done by the body itself. Medicine generally just assists the body in the healing process. And it is scientifically proven that your moods and attitudes can impact aspects of healing. For example, people with clinical depression are also inclined to develop certain physical ailments as well. Depression impacts the immune system. If your mental state can impact your physical well-being in a negative way (example: stress), it only stands to reason that it can impact it in positive ways as well (reduced stress). I think we are learning that we can have more control over our personal healing process than we previously thought. That doesn't me we can consciously direct cells to do certain things in certain areas of the body. But it does appear that we can impact the overall environment those cells are in and encourage certain cells to thrive with certain attitudes or dispositions.

This makes me wonder about healing miracle stories from the past. While I generally discount these stories (or take them upon pure faith with regards to religion), I wonder if some people in the past haven't had a knack for encouraging positive thoughts and feelings in others (through meditation, relaxation, hypnotism, etc.) and, thereby, indirectly assisted them in healing themselves to such a degree that people might have thought of it as miraculous.

(06-09-2015, 08:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If you believe in this I would guess that you would also believe that one person can make another person sick just by sending the right signal.  It has to work both ways, correct?

(06-09-2015, 12:46 PM)xxlt Wrote: I have heard of many forms of "energy healing." The one I have heard most about is called Reiki. I have heard allegations that a trained Reiki master can "throw" energy across a room and have it "hit" a stranger, who will acknowledge it. Whether the people who claim to have witnessed this phenomenon saw energy projected into a stranger or just a coincidence is, of course, open to debate. But the theory would seem to be that yes, if you can access your energy and that of another and make an impact for good, you would also be able to make an impact for bad.