Are the Bengals better today than before free agency

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-23-2021, 09:47 PM)wanga Wrote: Yeah I don’t think we’re done yet. 

We aren't, sure of it.

Don't know if I have ever said this before...

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-23-2021, 02:37 PM)Au165 Wrote: You will be shocked to learn every team in the league is currently using their data in various ways. It's not the end-all, but considering 90% of fans don't actually understand what they are looking at the outside of their macro understanding of football it helps contextualize things. 

Yeah. Give the average fan about 10 years. They'll start to come around. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-23-2021, 02:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: This forum is almost the only place I see PFF cited as anything other than a source of laughter.

So then, NFL teams, beat reporters, national reporters, national broadcasters are all stupid for using them then?

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-23-2021, 04:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You sure about that?

I say Dalton was better in 2015 than in 2018.

PFF says he was better in 2018 than in 2015.

Are you still rolling out this played out, thoroughly explained old debate?

[NATI BENGALS]

I just posted this in another thread but I see that it belongs here.

Every year is a new year. We had a bunch of cap space because contracts were ending and those players were no longer on the roster. We lost one of the highest paid WRs in the league who was not even close to worth it for the price. A disgruntled DE who was expensive. An injured aging undersized phenom DT who was expensive. A 5th year rookie contract option 10mil CB who landed the biggest CB payday this free agency.

Yea we didn't get Thuney and we didn't keep Lawson who looks really promising. But man. This is really obvious stuff a lot of you are just totally disregarding.

We are way better. We have filled most of the major holes caused by our players hitting free agency. Money that was spent on guys like AJ, Geno, Dunlap, Hart, and Finney last year is now invested in multiple talented newcomers with lots of upside.

[TJ528]

(03-24-2021, 03:38 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I just posted this in another thread but I see that it belongs here.

Every year is a new year. We had a bunch of cap space because contracts were ending and those players were no longer on the roster. We lost one of the highest paid WRs in the league who was not even close to worth it for the price. A disgruntled DE who was expensive. An injured aging undersized phenom DT who was expensive. A 5th year rookie contract option 10mil CB who landed the biggest CB payday this free agency.

Yea we didn't get Thuney and we didn't keep Lawson who looks really promising. But man. This is really obvious stuff a lot of you are just totally disregarding.

We are way better. We have filled most of the major holes caused by our players hitting free agency. Money that was spent on guys like AJ, Geno, Dunlap, Hart, and Finney last year is now invested in multiple talented newcomers with lots of upside.

I agree, I think we're better.  How much better though is the question. 

If we're able to bring in Turner for the OL and bring in Kerrigan on the DL then I'd say were significantly improved. 

So much so that if Zac has a losing season or Lou's defense is ranked in the 20s both need fired and replaced going into 2022. 

[BoomerFan]

(03-23-2021, 08:54 PM)mikey6866 Wrote: While I agree were most likely going to improve it's because we're getting starters back from injury and burrow has a year under his belt now not some magical front office maneuvers.

The front 7 on d is in better shape than oline.  We are still very desperate for oline help.  Reiff is on one year deal so we still need to draft 3 interior guys and a tackle.  That could be a serviceable oline with at least some depth if we are able to hit on the picks.  

Definitely agree that part of the value of Reiff is that he let's us draft a tackle and ease them into playing instead of throwing them to the wolves immediately their rookie year. 

I think there should be an opportunity to draft an interior oline player as well, I dunno about 3 though. Just to review, we currently have under contract potential starters Quinton Spain, Trey Hopkins, and Xavier Su'a-Filo, and potential backups Hakeem Adeniji, Billy Price, Michael Jordan, and Fred Johnson. At most you are keeping 6 and we hope some of those guys have progressed with another year of experience and training camp under their belt. 

You are right though, we need to hit on the draft picks we do make for this team to prosper in the future. 

[*ochocincos*]

(03-23-2021, 02:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: I also knowing people in organizations around the league through my connections with EA, can tell you MANY actually do use them in larger pieces than people think. I guess, as they say, it matters who you know? 

Either way, it gives people some sort of context to discussing play on the field they don't understand which is why they discuss it often. I'd prefer people point to that then talk about schemes and techniques they don't understand. You know how many times people say, "I don't need PFF I have my eyes" then proceed to say things that are 100% inaccurate to the actual football world?

The reality is a majority of people who say they "use their eyes" are watching maybe a second or two of a player on a snap via television. They are not watching the All 22 film of the same player every snap of every game like PFF does. So what they are watching is a (much) smaller sample size than what PFF analyzes.

PFF is not the end-all, be-all, but it's a great time saver for those who don't want to invest a bunch of hours watching All 22 film with no audio.

Personally, I reference stats, PFF, and clips on YouTube/highlights. I tried watching All 22 film and got bored super quick.

[Au165]

(03-24-2021, 11:31 AM)ochocincos Wrote: The reality is a majority of people who say they "use their eyes" are watching maybe a second or two of a player on a snap via television. They are not watching the All 22 film of the same player every snap of every game like PFF does. So what they are watching is a (much) smaller sample size than what PFF analyzes.

PFF is not the end-all, be-all, but it's a great time saver for those who don't want to invest a bunch of hours watching All 22 film with no audio.

Personally, I reference stats, PFF, and clips on YouTube/highlights. I tried watching All 22 film and got bored super quick.

All 22 is pretty rough. I usually watch it with music in the background and take notes because it at least keeps me more engaged. I am working on digitizing all my notes with search tags so I can find clips of certain things easier when I want to reference something. For instance, a good play in man coverage or a bad play I can quickly find it and if I want can reference back the time stamp on a specific game cut up.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-24-2021, 11:33 AM)Au165 Wrote: All 22 is pretty rough. I usually watch it with music in the background and take notes because it at least keeps me more engaged. I am working on digitizing all my notes with search tags so I can find clips of certain things easier when I want to reference something. For instance, a good play in man coverage or a bad play I can quickly find it and if I want can reference back the time stamp on a specific game cut up.

I tried with music and stuff but I end up getting distracted by something else and have to keep rewinding. Got tired of it lol.

[Au165]

(03-24-2021, 11:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I tried with music and stuff but I end up getting distracted by something else and have to keep rewinding. Got tired of it lol.

I have a wireless clicker setup on my computer so I can lean back in my chair and do it all wirelessly. I enjoy it as a way to relax.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

I don't see that we have actually improved since last season.

We had two tier one free agents - both walked. You can argue between Lawson and Hedrickson - it appears Lawson was the team's first choice and Hendrickson was only signed once it was clear that Lawson wasn't returning - and whether the corner room is stronger or weaker but those were our big moves in terms of money being committed and they were sideways moves to replace top tier players who left. Whether marginally better or marginally worse those moves haven't shifted the needle on a 4 win team.

Replacing Bobby Hart with Riley Reiff is probably a bigger PR win than upgrade. Reiff was a good player but is on the way down. It's a one year deal. He's a stop-gap replacing a stop-gap. He doesn't fix the O-line, whose problems were far more on the interior in any case. He buys us time and means we don't have to reach in the first round if Sewell is gone.

Elsewhere we've lost two future Hall of Famers. They may have offered little production on the field last year but they were a big part of why we were supposed to be much improved last year with them healthy again. Their production may be replaced but what they were supposed to mean in terms of game planning hasn't been replaced and probably won't be unless we draft Chase/Pitts in Round 1 and improbably hit on a DT.

We've still got holes all over the place: at WR where we have to replace Green, Ross and Erickson; at G where we have yet to upgrade our weakest position; at DE where there's still a Carlos Dunlap sized hole; at DT where some more pass rush is required; let alone depth where the likes of Shawn Williams, Josh Bynes, Cethan Carter etc have gone and not been replaced. The only position where the depth has been improved appears to be CB with the addition of Eli Apple. It doesn't look like the rebuild will be completed this season and that is a source of immense frustration when the front office failed to deal Lawson, WJIII, Billings, Dalton, Eifert, Dunlap, Green, Atkins early enough to recapitalize.

[grampahol]

Somehow I just don't think you guys believe this will be the greatest football team in the entire history of all sports since time began.. 
Well, I for one have to disagree. They'll become synonymous with the very definition of championship and every child born around the world today will grow up with the words Bengals emblazoned on their lips.. OK, MAYBE I'm overdoing it just a little bit here..  Ya think?  Just remember, You're never too old to go insane.. 

[The Clapp]

(03-24-2021, 12:53 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I don't see that we have actually improved since last season.

We had two tier one free agents - both walked. You can argue between Lawson and Hedrickson - it appears Lawson was the team's first choice and Hendrickson was only signed once it was clear that Lawson wasn't returning - and whether the corner room is stronger or weaker but those were our big moves in terms of money being committed and they were sideways moves to replace top tier players who left. Whether marginally better or marginally worse those moves haven't shifted the needle on a 4 win team.

Replacing Bobby Hart with Riley Reiff is probably a bigger PR win than upgrade. Reiff was a good player but is on the way down. It's a one year deal. He's a stop-gap replacing a stop-gap. He doesn't fix the O-line, whose problems were far more on the interior in any case. He buys us time and means we don't have to reach in the first round if Sewell is gone.

Elsewhere we've lost two future Hall of Famers. They may have offered little production on the field last year but they were a big part of why we were supposed to be much improved last year with them healthy again. Their production may be replaced but what they were supposed to mean in terms of game planning hasn't been replaced and probably won't be unless we draft Chase/Pitts in Round 1 and improbably hit on a DT.

We've still got holes all over the place: at WR where we have to replace Green, Ross and Erickson; at G where we have yet to upgrade our weakest position; at DE where there's still a Carlos Dunlap sized hole; at DT where some more pass rush is required; let alone depth where the likes of Shawn Williams, Josh Bynes, Cethan Carter etc have gone and not been replaced. The only position where the depth has been improved appears to be CB with the addition of Eli Apple. It doesn't look like the rebuild will be completed this season and that is a source of immense frustration when the front office failed to deal Lawson, WJIII, Billings, Dalton, Eifert, Dunlap, Green, Atkins early enough to recapitalize.

You had me agreeing with you, then you said this... i lost faith, man....

[Hammerstripes]

Are we better? I would say we will be GREATLY improved IF the guys on this team are healthy.

I view free agency as a lateral move, with the lone exception of Reiff. He's a clear upgrade.

Keep in mind we should be getting the following guys back:

Waynes, Reader, Mixon. Those guys make us better immediately if we can stay healthy, which has been a major issue.

I'll give the Bengals credit. We do have a competent starter at every position on the team going into the draft. Of course, competent starters don't win titles, but at least we should have a situation where we are rolling out guys that have no business starting.

[fredtoast]

(03-24-2021, 03:02 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Are you still rolling out this played out, thoroughly explained old debate?

I see you are still avoiding addressing it with your lame explanation.

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-26-2021, 10:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I see you are still avoiding addressing it with your lame explanation.

You have to be joking, or trolling. I thoroughly explained it to you many times. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-24-2021, 03:38 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I just posted this in another thread but I see that it belongs here.

Every year is a new year. We had a bunch of cap space because contracts were ending and those players were no longer on the roster. We lost one of the highest paid WRs in the league who was not even close to worth it for the price. A disgruntled DE who was expensive. An injured aging undersized phenom DT who was expensive. A 5th year rookie contract option 10mil CB who landed the biggest CB payday this free agency.

Yea we didn't get Thuney and we didn't keep Lawson who looks really promising. But man. This is really obvious stuff a lot of you are just totally disregarding.

We are way better. We have filled most of the major holes caused by our players hitting free agency. Money that was spent on guys like AJ, Geno, Dunlap, Hart, and Finney last year is now invested in multiple talented newcomers with lots of upside.

This, well said NATI. Hendrickson, Ogunjobi, Reiff, Hilton, Awuzie, Allen, Spain, Apple are all good moves while letting the bad
weight go and us getting back the players we lost last year. Reader, Waynes, Mixon, Tupou should all be back and we aren't 
even done in FA yet and the Draft hasn't even started. No excuses for the coaches this year.

Winning record or cut ties.

[fredtoast]

(03-26-2021, 12:50 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: You have to be joking, or trolling. I thoroughly explained it to you many times. 

The only joke is your claim that Dalton's AMAZING rushing stats in 2018 (16 carries, 99 yds, 0 tds) made a bigger difference than the gap between ranking #2 in the league in passer rating (106.2 in '15) and 25th (89.6 in '18).

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-26-2021, 02:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The only joke is your claim that Dalton's AMAZING rushing stats in 2018 (16 carries, 99 yds, 0 tds) made a bigger difference than the gap between ranking #2 in the league in passer rating (106.2 in '15) and 25th (89.6 in '18).

When you say "better", you're talking about passing. 

You say, Dalton was "better" in 2015 than he was in 2018.
PFF says Dalton was "better" in 2015 than he was in 2018. 

Passing Grades:
2015 -- 82.3
2018 -- 79.3

3 points better in 2015 than 2018. 

His passing stats for 2015 are clearly better than his passing stats in 2018. What's the problem here?

If you're surprised by his rushing grade pushing his overall grade above what it was in 2015, you shouldn't be.

In 2018 he averaged 6.2ypa on 4 rushes, with 3 of them being 10+ yards and only fumbled once and all 4 rushes were for a first down. 
In 2015 he averaged 2.4ypa on 31 rushes, with only 3 of them being 10+ yards and he fumbled 5 times with 13 of his rushes going for a first. 

Easy peasy to understand. 

In case i'm wrong...QBs aren't just there to throw the ball. They have to be able to move and gain yards on the ground when a pass play breaks down.