Being Optimistic

[*Synric*]

With all these new players I'm praying for an off-season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-25-2021, 02:31 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Wyche, my only issue is why be willing to do this for Taylor but I know the organization never spent this kind of money in free agency during Marvin's reign.   I guess Katie and organization have a lot more confidence in Taylor than I do.  

Do you agree losing season this year and Taylor needs to be directed out of town and a competent HC hired?  

Absolutely agree he should be gone. I also think the FO is slowly adapting to modern football. Marvin had a pretty decent FA haul his first season. The one thing Marvin's bunch did well was drafting those first few years. He got Palmer, then a lot of other high end players there for a while. You also gotta remember, Marvin had an outstanding offensive line at first, then again when Whit/Boling/Zeitler/Smith were playing. It's no coincidence he won with Willie/Bobbie/Steiny/Levi/Braham....then started losing when turds like Nate Livings were starting, then won again with that second group. When Ogbuehi and those guys were starters, Marvin started losing again. For the past five years, this team has been getting its ass kicked in the trenches on both sides of the ball. That's showed up in the win/loss column under both staffs.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-25-2021, 02:37 PM)Synric Wrote: With all these new players I'm praying for an off-season.

Would certainly help matters.

[TJ528]

(03-25-2021, 02:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely agree he should be gone. I also think the FO is slowly adapting to modern football. Marvin had a pretty decent FA haul his first season. The one thing Marvin's bunch did well was drafting those first few years. He got Palmer, then a lot of other high end players there for a while. You also gotta remember, Marvin had an outstanding offensive line at first, then again when Whit/Boling/Zeitler/Smith were playing. It's no coincidence he won with Willie/Bobbie/Steiny/Levi/Guichak....then started losing when turds like Nate Livings were starting, then won again with that second group. When Ogbuehi and those guys were starters, Marvin started losing again. For the past five years, this team has been getting its ass kicked in the trenches on both sides of the ball. That's showed up in the win/loss column under both staffs.

He also drafted Whit, Bolling, Zeitler, and Smith.....I did some research and since 2015 only OL draft pick that seems to be worth a damn is Jonah.  So to miss on 5 years of OL is insane from 2015 - 2020.   

It all starts up front and I was really hoping this organization realized that after Joey knee got busted up last year.  

I'll get your opinion but who do you think had more talent to work when hired?  Marvin or Zac?  Me personally, I think Zac had more talent.  Marvin came into an organization that had gone 2-14 the year before he arrived and was just a crap organization during the lost decade.  Zac comes in and still had a LOT of talent on that 2019 team IMO

[fredtoast]

Here is my opinion.  In free agency I saw improvement at two position, RT and DT.  And even though Hendrickson is may not be that much better than Lawson I was terrified by Carl's injury history, so I like that move a lot also.

But those improvements were not enough for a team as bad as the Bengals have been the last couple of years.  And as for the draft I don't really count on any rookies other than first round picks to be very good their first season.  Obviously there are lots of good NFL players taken after the first round, but they usually need a year to develop or to work on weak spots in their game.  I know we have hit on guys like Higgins and Dalton, but those are the exception instead of the general rule.

So that leaves me looking for other reasons for optimism.  I try not to count to much on the extraordinary, but instead look at how things usually work in the NFL.  For example.  .  .  

1.  Most NFL players improve quite a bit from their rookie year.  That doesn't mean you can count on guys who barely played as rookies to be solid starters in their second seasons.  But for guys who were good enough to see significant playing time as rookies like Tee Higgins (805 snaps), Logan Wilson (343 snaps), Akeem Davis-Gaither (314 snaps), Khalid Kareem (259 snaps), and Hakeem Adeniji (232 snaps) they should improve quite q bit.  Some of those guys just got playing time by default, and they need to improve a lot before earning real playing time.  But Higgins looks like he could be a star and Logan Wilson could be a very solid starter.

2.  Burrow was a rookie also, but i will address him separately. While he suffered from lack of protection he has issues of his own he needs to correct.  I have faith that he will.  And since QB is the most important position on the team his improvement is the most crucial.

3.  I am also hoping we stay more healthy than last year.  I know every team has injuries, but we were really hit hard on defense with the loss of Geno, Reader, Waynes, and our CBs in general.  LeShaun Sims was supposed to be our #5 CB but he started ten games and played just 36 fewer snaps than Alexander (Who despite missing 3 games played the second most snaps at CB).  DT was also ruined by the loss of both Atkins and Reader who combined to play just 378 total snaps on defense.

4.  I think our O-line coach will make a big difference.  Last year it seemed like our O-line had more problem figuring out who to block than they did getting beaten one-on-one.  They really struggled to pick up blitzes and stunts.  Coaches can not create talent, but you would think they should have a big impact on correcting problems like who to block.

So we still need to hit a starter in the draft.  And in addition to these reasons to feel positive there are also reasons to feel negative.  But overall I at least have enough reasons to feel somewhat positive about this upcoming season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-25-2021, 03:23 PM)TJ528 Wrote: He also drafted Whit, Bolling, Zeitler, and Smith.....I did some research and since 2015 only OL draft pick that seems to be worth a damn is Jonah.  So to miss on 5 years of OL is insane from 2015 - 2020.   

It all starts up front and I was really hoping this organization realized that after Joey knee got busted up last year.  

I'll get your opinion but who do you think had more talent to work when hired?  Marvin or Zac?  Me personally, I think Zac had more talent.  Marvin came into an organization that had gone 2-14 the year before he arrived and was just a crap organization during the lost decade.  Zac comes in and still had a LOT of talent on that 2019 team IMO

Zac had more skill position talent, Marvin had more talent in the trenches. Marvin's first year was fresh off the Akili Smith fiasco....and he got a decent year out of Jon Kitna. Still, he had Warrick, Chad Johnson, Rudi, and Reggie Kelly on offense. Defense was suspect. 

Yes, to your point, the draft of OL from 2015-2020 was God awful. It's what set the team back years.

Also, I meant Braham earlier, not Guichak or however you spell it.

[TJ528]

(03-25-2021, 04:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: Zac had more skill position talent, Marvin had more talent in the trenches. Marvin's first year was fresh off the Akili Smith fiasco....and he got a decent year out of Jon Kitna. Still, he had Warrick, Chad Johnson, Rudi, and Reggie Kelly on offense. Defense was suspect. 

Yes, to your point, the draft of OL from 2015-2020 was God awful. It's what set the team back years.

Also, I meant Braham earlier, not Guichak or however you spell it.

Yea unfortunately from the time Brahm retired til Marvin left the team we never found a replacement as good as Brahm. 

However, G and T were great in the draft.  I'd say Center was serviceable from the draft.  I'd say on Trey's level.

Trey looked good because everyone else around him sucked.  He's serviceable at best.  

Price I'd cut bait and let him try and restart his career elsewhere.  He's not even close to serviceable with this team.  

That's what happens when you draft for need instead of Best Available Player. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-25-2021, 04:11 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Yea unfortunately from the time Brahm retired til Marvin left the team we never found a replacement as good as Brahm. 

However, G and T were great in the draft.  I'd say Center was serviceable from the draft.  I'd say on Trey's level.

Trey looked good because everyone else around him sucked.  He's serviceable at best.  

Price I'd cut bait and let him try and restart his career elsewhere.  He's not even close to serviceable with this team.  

That's what happens when you draft for need instead of Best Available Player. 

Agreed....for a minute, Trey was the highest graded C in the AFC last year, then tailed off. He's very good for a UDFA, but he needs to be your first option off the bench. Also, how much longer can he play at his current level? Our guards were just terrible, I mean, kill your offense due to instant pressure up the gut terrible.

Price...yikes!

[XenoMorph]

(03-25-2021, 04:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: Agreed....for a minute, Trey was the highest graded C in the AFC last year, then tailed off. He's very good for a UDFA, but he needs to be your first option off the bench. Also, how much longer can he play at his current level? Our guards were just terrible, I mean, kill your offense due to instant pressure up the gut terrible.

Price...yikes!

last 2 good centers we had out there were both UDFA's...    Cook was pretty good when we had him forget what happened to him.  but we definately struggled after that.

[TJ528]

(03-25-2021, 04:18 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: last 2 good centers we had out there were both UDFA's...    Cook was pretty good when we had him forget what happened to him.  but we definately struggled after that.

Kyle Cook was good for us.  I honestly dont think Bodine was that bad compared to what we've seen for the past 3 years on the OL.  

Every one loves to complain about Eric Ghiaciuc when he was our center from 2005-2008, my guess if you look at him and compared him to Hopkins you'd see some similarities.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-25-2021, 04:18 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: last 2 good centers we had out there were both UDFA's...    Cook was pretty good when we had him forget what happened to him.  but we definately struggled after that.

Had a good year or two, got hurt, and never was the same.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-25-2021, 04:37 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Kyle Cook was good for us.  I honestly dont think Bodine was that bad compared to what we've seen for the past 3 years on the OL.  

Every one loves to complain about Eric Ghiaciuc when he was our center from 2005-2008, my guess if you look at him and compared him to Hopkins you'd see some similarities.  

Bodine got shoved in Dalton's face quite a bit. Definitely the weak link on that line. Ghiaciuc (thanks for the spelling,lol) was decent early, but when the rest of the line started to fail, he came to earth rather quickly.

[Waite Hoyt]

Very optimistic. But it all starts with getting our injured players healthy.

Would love to get Pitts and trade back into round 1 for a offensive linemen.

[Tomkat]

(03-25-2021, 08:36 PM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: ...Would love to get Pitts and trade back into round 1 for a offensive linemen.

I don't care how good of a player he is... I don't want ANYONE named "PITTS" (burgh) on this team! 

[Joelist]

I would say we upgraded at DE, DT and CB across the board. We actually have depth with competent CB who are good in the zone scheme Lou favors now - hopefully this means we never see LeShaun Sims again. Hendrickson is IIMHO better than Lawson FOR US (I don’t care about PFF). He does not have the injury history and he finishes the play more often in pass rush. Ogunboji getting to play 3T is going to be a boon - even stuck out of position at NT he was pretty decent at generating inside pass rush - which we desperately lacked last season.

And Reiff is a pretty significant upgrade at RT.

This is part of why I am not crazy about PFF or a lot of “sports” websites - they don’t do the legwork of taking the player, breaking down what they do well and what they don’t and comparing it to the scheme their new team runs. Anyone remember when we traded for a player who the sports media said was a bust? Some guy named....Reggie Nelson. The real issue was he was not being used properly in a scheme that fit his strengths.