New Look Offensive Line

[jj22]

I don't know why this sounds so familiar to me..... Oh yea, it was just last offseason we were sold on the "New Look Offensive Line" when they "took advantage of the waiver wire late to snag Fred Johnson, Isaiah Prince, and Shaq Calhoun...

[Tomcat]

Saw an article on another board that had the Bengals trading #5 to Carolina for #8 and a 2nd and then trading #8 to Philly for #12 and a 3rd this year, below are the results, I would be doing back flips if this happened. I think our OL would be in good shape. Not sure we really need another safety.

12- Jalen Waddle-WR
38- Liam Eichenberg-OT
39- Joseph Ossai-DE
69- Quinn Meinerz-OL
70- Tommy Togia-DT
111-Kenny Yeboah-TE
149-Cade Stevens-S
190-Josh Imatorbhe-WR
204-Shaka Toney-DE
235 Robt Rochelle-CB

[bengaloo]

(03-29-2021, 12:42 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Saw an article on another board that had the Bengals trading #5 to Carolina for #8 and a 2nd and then trading #8 to Philly for #12 and a 3rd this year, below are the results, I would be doing back flips if this happened. I think our OL would be in good shape. Not sure we really need another safety.

12- Jalen Waddle-WR
38- Liam Eichenberg-OT
39- Joseph Ossai-DE
69- Quinn Meinerz-OL
70- Tommy Togia-DT
111-Kenny Yeboah-TE
149-Cade Stevens-S
190-Josh Imatorbhe-WR
204-Shaka Toney-DE
235 Robt Rochelle-CB

I wouldnt be upset with this draft.... Still think we go after Chase, but its all speculation. There are a lot of good players in the draft who can help this team. 

[fredtoast]

(03-29-2021, 12:28 PM)jj22 Wrote: I don't know why this sounds so familiar to me..... Oh yea, it was just last offseason we were sold on the "New Look Offensive Line" when they "took advantage of the waiver wire late to snag Fred Johnson, Isaiah Prince, and Shaq Calhoun...

Only JJ22 could forget that last year we added the first O-lineman taken in the 2019 draft.

[jj22]

(03-29-2021, 01:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only JJ22 could forget that last year we added the first O-lineman taken in the 2019 draft.

***whispers***

Only Fred would swing out of his shoes and miss so badly.

Is someone going to tell him who we drafted first last year, and what round we finally drafted Oline.

Shots at people should have to come with reaching explanations that had nothing to do with my point about last offseason and the bill of good we were sold on the improvement and those results.

Neither of which you can argue.

Unless you are arguing that you were happy with the line going into last year, and if so we may need to discuss credibility again.

[Murdock2420]

(03-29-2021, 01:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only JJ22 could forget that last year we added the first O-lineman taken in the 2019 draft.

So, how do you build a line here then?

The one pick that hasn't been garbage since the 2012 draft that was on the O-line was Williams. Where we spent a high draft pick on a guy that was viewed by all the experts as a can't miss type of guy. (Exactly like Sewell)

Look at the list of garbage in round 2 and beyond in 2020 draft, 2019, 18, etc... the last good O-line pick was Zeitler in 2012, when he was still a 1st rounder but we traded down and missed on DeCastro to take him which in hindsight was a mistake.

So, how do we build a line Fred?

Can't use pick 5, cause... gots to gets the skillz.... Chase or Pitts... durrrr

Can't use 2nd, or beyond because the team has shown it can't evaluate talent. Look at the results, this is not a debate, they can't find talent on the OL after the 1st round in 10 years. Boling was talent in the 4th... 10 years ago.

Oh... and you won't spend money on the top guys like Thuney. 

So... how are we supposed to protect the franchise?

[Sled21]

(03-29-2021, 01:42 PM)jj22 Wrote: ***whispers***

Only Fred would swing out of his shoes and miss so badly.

Is someone going to tell him who we drafted first last year.

Shots at people should have to come with reaching explanations that had nothing to do with my point about last offseason.

***shakes head***

Reading is fundamental. Fred clearly stated you forgot who we added last year from the 1st Rd. of the 2019 draft, which was OT Jonah Williams. He was added last year, as he missed his first year with shoulder injury.....
Talk about swing and a miss.....

[jj22]

(03-29-2021, 01:47 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So, how do you build a line here then?

The one pick that hasn't been garbage since the 2012 draft that was on the O-line was Williams. Where we spent a high draft pick on a guy that was viewed by all the experts as a can't miss type of guy. (Exactly like Sewell)

I wouldn't argue Williams was a can't miss prospect as most had questions on if he could play tackle or where on the line he belonged. 

[jj22]

(03-29-2021, 01:48 PM)Sled21 Wrote: ***shakes head***

Reading is fundamental. Fred clearly stated you forgot who we added last year from the 1st Rd. of the 2019 draft, which was OT Jonah Williams. He was added last year, as he missed his first year with shoulder injury.....
Talk about swing and a miss.....

Sorry, I missed where I was talking the 2019 offseason. Thought I mentioned last offseason additions. Reading my friend is fundamental. Don't let Fred spin you into trouble.

Talk about a double play ball.

Who's crazy enough to try to steal with Fred at bat....

***deep sigh***

[Sled21]

I'm all about taking Sewell or Slater, then grabbing some guards. (Hopefully someone that plays with a mean streak like Meinerz)
However, if people are going to talk about last years Oline sucking without acknowledging it was a whole lot stronger on the inside as soon as XFS came back and the guard positions were staffed by him and Spain, then they are not being truthful. Do we need to improve, sure, but when we had Williams, XFS, Hopkins, Spain and Hart, it was a much better line than when we were changing it every week. Now this year if it is Williams, XFS, Hopkins, Spain and Reiff with possibly Sewell/Slater competing for a guard spot, that's an improved line.

[Murdock2420]

(03-29-2021, 01:48 PM)jj22 Wrote: I wouldn't argue Williams was a can't miss prospect as most had questions on if he could play tackle or where on the line he belonged. 

He was viewed as a guy that would stick at G though if he wasn't a T. 

He was viewed as a can't miss prospect on the line, just wasn't sure if he was going to be a T or G.  

[Murdock2420]

(03-29-2021, 01:53 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I'm all about taking Sewell or Slater, then grabbing some guards. (Hopefully someone that plays with a mean streak like Meinerz)
However, if people are going to talk about last years Oline sucking without acknowledging it was a whole lot stronger on the inside as soon as XFS came back and the guard positions were staffed by him and Spain, then they are not being truthful. Do we need to improve, sure, but when we had Williams, XFS, Hopkins, Spain and Hart, it was a much better line than when we were changing it every week. Now this year if it is Williams, XFS, Hopkins, Spain and Reiff with possibly Sewell/Slater competing for a guard spot, that's an improved line.

Sure it improved, from terrible to okay.

But is okay enough for protecting the guy that just had his knee ruined?


XSF hasn't been healthy for the past few seasons, so we are literally one sprain away from Jordan back out there at G.

Spain or XSF starting with the other as the back-up is comfortable. Both starting with Jordan behind them, is awful.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(03-29-2021, 10:36 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Never under estimate what a,good oline coach can do for a unit.
Turner is no scapegoat. He just flatout cannot coach up a oline to be dominant or at least
Be on the same page. 
Look at his resume. What olines under his watch have been considered well coached?
Thats what when he,was shown the door teams were lining up for his oline expertise, right?
No he is he drinking his Sam Adams Lager today waiting for a call from anyone dumb 
Enough to hire his Sgt.Carter antics

If 1st RDs picks were everything how come Paul Alexander was 1 and done in Dallas?
Talent is nothing without coaching in the NFL.

I bet you anything Brian Callahan got a bit of wisdom from his dad  who is oline coach
In Cleveland and passed it to ZT about overhauling the oline.

Can anyone name me how many 1st RD picks the highest graded oline in the league.
Its 1. 
The Browns have Jedrick Willis.thats the 1st RDer
Bitonio is a 2nd RD from 2 regimes ago. Tretter is FA from GB. Wyatt Teller the best OG in the NFL
was a afterthought in a trade. 
And Jack Conklin a FA from the Titans.
But they only got to that level cause,of the arrival of Bill Callahan. 
The Browns in 2020-added 2 new pieces plus the coach....boom. Best oline in the NFL
Then in the Steelers playoff win they had a no name start at RG for Bitonio. 
Didnt miss a beat up front.

Thats coaching folks.

Good post but a tad disingenuous. Conklin was a 1st rd pick, #8 overall. So they have 2 #1s. A 2nd.  A 4th. And a 5th.

I'd also note that they were healthy last year. 4/5 guys played 960+ snaps. 3 over 1,000. Teller played 696.

Last year, we played with a 1st (Jonah), and 2nd (XSF), undrafted (Hopkins), a 7th (Hart), and a 4th (Jordan). Our snap count leaders were Hopkins at 937, Hart at 871, Jordan at 730, Jonah at 633 and Spain at 543 (undrafted). Two undrafted guys, a 7th, a 4th, and a 1st. Next most snaps were Fred (undrafted), Redmond (undrafted), XSF (2nd), and Adeniji (6th). 

Of the 9 guys who played the most: 4 undrafted, a 7th, a rookie 6th, a 4th, a 2nd, and a rookie 1st. Yes, Price is a 1st. But he's a busted 1st and played the 10th most snaps. Even including Billy, our 10 rostered guys: 2 1sts, 1 2nd, 1 4th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 4 undrafted. Pretty heavy on the back end. None of the late round/undrafted guys turned into a pro-bowl level guy, though Hopkins/Spain are below average starters.

Point is, while I agree coaching is important. And that Turner is a bum. And that Pollack is much better. I do not want to bet Burrow's future on it. 

Yes, swappung out Hart for Reiff, a former 1st round pick and slightly above average LT is an upgrade. But our unit still needs a lot of upgrades. Better starters. Better reserves. Pollack may be able to turn Turner's lemons into lemonade. But what if he has legit top shelf ingediants to start with?

The Browns got OBJ & still stunk. They added Conklin and Willis and made the POs.

With a good to great OL, Burrow will put up a ton of points. The running game will be better. The receivers we have will be better. FA WRs and TEs will want to play here. And we can keep the D off the field a lot.

Upgrade the OL.

[impactplaya]

(03-29-2021, 02:01 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sure it improved, from terrible to okay.

But is okay enough for protecting the guy that just had his knee ruined?


XSF hasn't been healthy for the past few seasons, so we are literally one sprain away from Jordan back out there at G.

Spain or XSF starting with the other as the back-up is comfortable. Both starting with Jordan behind them, is awful.

Your forgetting JB was a rookie QB last year and as rookie QBs 
Do, they hold on to ball much too long at times.
A QB getting hit  has much too it than just a olineman 
Getting pushed back or protection breaking down.
Having a QB drop back 50 times a game, well chances are
He is going to get hit. 
Ive seen QBs behind good olines get  hit and the next thing you  know that are finished for the year.
Tom Brady
Ben Rothlisberger
Andy Dalton 
Joe Theisman
Bert Jones

QBs take hits all the time. Even behind really good olines.
Zac didnt help matters,by have a inept oline coach and 
A pass run ratio guarenteed to beat up a QB.

[fredtoast]

(03-29-2021, 01:49 PM)jj22 Wrote: Sorry, I missed where I was talking the 2019 offseason. Thought I mentioned last offseason additions. Reading my friend is fundamental. Don't let Fred spin you into trouble.

Reading is not as important as knowing basic facts.

Jonah played zero snaps in 2019.  So he was new to the lineup in 2020.

Educate yourself.

[impactplaya]

(03-29-2021, 02:21 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Good post but a tad disingenuous. Conklin was a 1st rd pick, #8 overall. So they have 2 #1s. A 2nd.  A 4th. And a 5th.

I'd also note that they were healthy last year. 4/5 guys played 960+ snaps. 3 over 1,000. Teller played 696.

Last year, we played with a 1st (Jonah), and 2nd (XSF), undrafted (Hopkins), a 7th (Hart), and a 4th (Jordan). Our snap count leaders were Hopkins at 937, Hart at 871, Jordan at 730, Jonah at 633 and Spain at 543 (undrafted). Two undrafted guys, a 7th, a 4th, and a 1st. Next most snaps were Fred (undrafted), Redmond (undrafted), XSF (2nd), and Adeniji (6th). 

Of the 9 guys who played the most: 4 undrafted, a 7th, a rookie 6th, a 4th, a 2nd, and a rookie 1st. Yes, Price is a 1st. But he's a busted 1st and played the 10th most snaps. Even including Billy, our 10 rostered guys: 2 1sts, 1 2nd, 1 4th, 1 6th, 1 7th, 4 undrafted. Pretty heavy on the back end. None of the late round/undrafted guys turned into a pro-bowl level guy, though Hopkins/Spain are below average starters.

Point is, while I agree coaching is important. And that Turner is a bum. And that Pollack is much better. I do not want to bet Burrow's future on it. 

Yes, swappung out Hart for Reiff, a former 1st round pick and slightly above average LT is an upgrade. But our unit still needs a lot of upgrades. Better starters. Better reserves. Pollack may be able to turn Turner's lemons into lemonade. But what if he has legit top shelf ingediants to start with?

The Browns got OBJ & still stunk. They added Conklin and Willis and made the POs.

With a good to great OL, Burrow will put up a ton of points. The running game will be better. The receivers we have will be better. FA WRs and TEs will want to play here. And we can keep the D off the field a lot.

Upgrade the OL.

Im.just saying the Bengals oline changes and the Browns oline changes arent that far apart when you break it down.
If you count Conklin as a 1st RD pick then the Bengals like
The Browns have 2 1st RD picks at OTs.
The Browns brought in  a new oline coach
As did the Bengals .

[fredtoast]

(03-29-2021, 01:47 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Can't use 2nd, or beyond because the team has shown it can't evaluate talent. Look at the results, this is not a debate, they can't find talent on the OL after the 1st round in 10 years. Boling was talent in the 4th... 10 years ago.

"This team" had not found talent on the D-line in the draft for many years before we selected Hubbard.

It is ridiculous to say it is impossible for us to find talent in the first two rounds at O-line.  In fact I can still remember when guys like you guaranteed that the Bengals would never even use a first round pick on an OG or TE.

[Murdock2420]

(03-29-2021, 02:24 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Your forgetting JB was a rookie QB last year and as rookie QBs 
Do, they hold on to ball much too long at times.
A QB getting hit  has much too it than just a olineman 
Getting pushed back or protection breaking down.
Having a QB drop back 50 times a game, well chances are
He is going to get hit. 
Ive seen QBs behind good olines get  hit and the next thing you  know that are finished for the year.
Tom Brady
Ben Rothlisberger
Andy Dalton 
Joe Theisman
Bert Jones

QBs take hits all the time. Even behind really good olines.
Zac didnt help matters,by have a inept oline coach and 
A pass run ratio guarenteed to beat up a QB.

So now the belief is our line is fine cause we signed Reiff and that Burrow was the issue?

I'm.... stunned.

At the end of the season there was no one on this board that wasn't screaming about how bad the line was. There was a huge debate about needing to lose the remaining games to get the #2 pick to be certain we got Sewell cause that was what we needed.

Now... we approach the draft and it's like Groundhog's Day here.

We deflect from the real issue. Get obsessed with shiny new toys. And think that depth pieces will develop into Pro-Bowl level starters.

This is why Mike Brown is a successful businessman. All he has to do is sacrifice an assistant coach and make one actual upgrade on the line and the fan base thinks all is well.

[Beaker]

(03-29-2021, 02:36 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: This is why Mike Brown is a successful businessman. All he has to do is sacrifice an assistant coach and make one actual upgrade on the line and the fan base thinks all is well.

On the other side of the coin there are those who are upset no matter what the FO does.

[GodFather]

(03-28-2021, 10:22 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: While I agree that Pollack is a huge improvement over the horror show of a coach we had last season, I think the belief he can fix the bad players we have is a little misguided.

While in Dallas when he had the awesome line that everyone thinks of with him, he had 4 1st round OL on the team. Jonathan Cooper, Travis Frederick, Zack Martin and Tyron Smith. It wasn't like he was taking 3rd, 4th and guys off the scrap pile and making them All-Pro, he was given a lot of draft capital and talent and he got them to play like 1st rounders. Give him the talent, and he can do it here, but he's going to need the talent.

and this sums it up well...