Sewell vs Chase Civil War

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 08:55 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Excellent post

Yep. Regardless of which side you're on, you have to admit we've struggled with o-line picks lately.

Billy Price
Cedcric Ogbuehi
Jake Fisher

All busts.

Then you have the mid-round whiffs like...

Michael Jordan
JJ Dielman
Christian Westerman
Russell Bodine
Tanner Hawkinson

All taken between rounds 3-5. The last solid lineman we got in that range was Clint Boling in 2011.

That's what worries me about the "just get a lineman later" line of thinking.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(04-01-2021, 03:06 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I would've liked him to weigh in on Slater honestly. There are some who think he's the better prospect over Sewell. 

And that may be the more relevant question to ask anyway. The Jets could very well take Sewell at 2 if they aren't sold on this QB class. The thing with Slater is that you have to look at why he's getting drafted. Does he have elite physical attributes or upside? No, he's being drafted for his polish. Guys like that can make good players in the league and last for a long time. I see him as a physically average-ish guard when compared to starting OL. Is that really worth a top 5 pick? Do you really want to pass on potential grand slams and elite physical specimens for an average-ish guard? If Sewell is gone, the pick is no longer a no-brainer. 

edit: Slater apparently tested through the roof. LOL.

[Frank Booth]

(04-01-2021, 09:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. Regardless of which side you're on, you have to admit we've struggled with o-line picks lately.

Billy Price
Cedcric Ogbuehi
Jake Fisher

All busts.

Then you have the mid-round whiffs like...

Michael Jordan
JJ Dielman
Christian Westerman
Russell Bodine
Tanner Hawkinson

All taken between rounds 3-5. The last solid lineman we got in that range was Clint Boling in 2011.

That's what worries me about the "just get a lineman later" line of thinking.

It really baffles me how a lot of people just brush it off to the side like, "yea we can get offensive linemen later in the draft"

you'd think all the fans would be on the same page since o-line has been the team's main issue since 2016, and Joe Burrow tore his knee due to bad o-line play

so be it though. 

If fans feel safe with Jonah Williams, an average center coming off a knee injury, XSF, and a 1 year contract to a RT who is on the tail end of his career, then let them feel foolish when things go south again

[Nicomo Cosca]

Some of you guys are basing an awful lot of our history, and not focusing much on the actual current decision at hand. I’d like to hear more debate specifically centered around Chase and Sewell themselves, and less about draft picks we made years ago.

[Frank Booth]

(04-01-2021, 09:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Some of you guys are basing an awful lot of our history

You mean the history where we havent made the playoffs since 2015 due to having awful offensive lines?

The history where our current LT has played less than 16 games in 2 seasons?

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 09:14 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: It really baffles me how a lot of people just brush it off to the side like, "yea we can get offensive linemen later in the draft"

you'd think all the fans would be on the same page since o-line has been the team's main issue since 2016, and Joe Burrow tore his knee due to bad o-line play

so be it though. 

If fans feel safe with Jonah Williams, and XSF, and a 1 year contract to a RT who is on the tail end of his career, then let them feel foolish when things go south again

Part of me is very surprised there isn't quite a bit of uniformity on this. I've been on other team's message boards and was really surprised at how much they agreed on players, etc. Our board has always been divided though. Of all things I thought we'd agree on, I thought it'd be this.

We all love Joe Burrow...he just got his knee shredded due to bad o-line play last season. Now it looks like a stud Tackle is going to fall in our lap. Seems like a no-brainer what we should do next. Especially given our poor recent history in taking lineman anywhere but the top of the draft.

I'd say people are overthinking this, or getting distracted by shiny objects, but we'll see how it plays out. Fwiw, I think Chase is a good player and any other year I'd probably be all for taking him.

[Frank Booth]

(04-01-2021, 09:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say people are overthinking this, or getting distracted by shiny objects, but we'll see how it plays out. Fwiw, I think Chase is a good player and any other year I'd probably be all for taking him.

they're distracted by Joe Burrow

he's the golden boy now, so anything he says, some fans will just eat up with no questions asked.

if Burrow says he'd like his friend to play in cincinnati, then people start repeating what Burrow says

the bengals reddit page is just a giant echo chamber. It's heavy one sided in favor of picking Chase

You have to ask yourself, are some of these fans actually bengals fans, or do they just play fantasy football?

or maybe they just read pff all day. Idk. 

Like you said, most bengals fans should want some form of offensive line in the first round.

[Brownshoe]

(04-01-2021, 08:24 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I find him extremely knowledgeable, and always enjoy the podcast he does with Anthony Cosenza.

I think he's super arrogant. I have questions about his knowledge too. A lot of the time he's just reading off stuff like PFF.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 09:17 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Some of you guys are basing an awful lot of our history, and not focusing much on the actual current decision at hand. I’d like to hear more debate specifically centered around Chase and Sewell themselves, and less about draft picks we made years ago.

If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

Anyways...I'll play along. Most mocks have us taking Sewell over Chase...due to our obvious need.

Most prospect rankings have Sewell as the superior prospect:

https://www.pff.com/draft/big-board?season=2021
https://thedraftnetwork.com/prospect-rankings
http://insider.espn.com/nfl/draft/rankings/_/year/2021 (this one has them with the same grade)
https://www.drafttek.com/2021-NFL-Draft-Big-Board/Top-NFL-Draft-Prospects-2021-Page-1.asp
https://walterfootball.com/nfldraftbigboard
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2932008-br-nfl-scouting-dept-2021-nfl-draft-big-board-20

The consensus big board uses 29 "expert's" big boards, and shows Sewell ranking 3rd on average and Chase ranking 5th:

https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2021/consensus-big-board-2021

-----------

So if Sewell is the superior prospect in the eyes of most objective people, then why should we take him? Is WR a bigger need than our line? We all know the answer to that, deep down. So why should we take Chase? The only reply you can have is that we can "get a lineman later". That's kinda weak though.

You don't KNOW who will be available later. Does that risk balance out with passing on the superior prospect who happens to fit a greater need?

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

Is Chase as much of a can't miss WR as Raghib Rocket Ismail?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-01-2021, 09:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

Anyways...I'll play along. Most mocks have us taking Sewell over Chase...due to our obvious need.

Most prospect rankings have Sewell as the superior prospect:

https://www.pff.com/draft/big-board?season=2021
https://thedraftnetwork.com/prospect-rankings
http://insider.espn.com/nfl/draft/rankings/_/year/2021 (this one has them with the same grade)
https://www.drafttek.com/2021-NFL-Draft-Big-Board/Top-NFL-Draft-Prospects-2021-Page-1.asp
https://walterfootball.com/nfldraftbigboard
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2932008-br-nfl-scouting-dept-2021-nfl-draft-big-board-20

The consensus big board uses 29 "expert's" big boards, and shows Sewell ranking 3rd on average and Chase ranking 5th:

https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2021/consensus-big-board-2021

-----------

So if Sewell is the superior prospect in the eyes of most objective people, then why should we take him? Is WR a bigger need than our line? We all know the answer to that, deep down. So why should we take Chase? The only reply you can have is that we can "get a lineman later". That's kinda weak though.

You don't KNOW who will be available later. Does that risk balance out with passing on the superior prospect who happens to fit a greater need?

He’s not though. There’s guys like McShay, Jeremiah, Kiper, etc that all have Chase ahead of Sewell. Some by a pretty significant margin. And why are guys like Tony Pike not able to be objective? What reason would he have to prefer one over the other?

[Shake n Blake]

(04-01-2021, 10:02 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s not though. There’s guys like McShay, Jeremiah, Kiper, etc that all have Chase ahead of Sewell. Some by a pretty significant margin. And why are guys like Tony Pike not able to be objective? What reason would he have to prefer one over the other?

I just provided you a link to a database that compiles 29 of the top expert's big boards into an average ranking...plus 7 links to other prominent sites. If this isn't enough proof of what the "consensus" is, then I don't know what to tell you. You're in denial it seems.

[Frank Booth]

(04-01-2021, 10:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I just provided you a link to a database that compiles 29 of the top expert's big boards into an average ranking...plus 7 links to other prominent sites. If this isn't enough proof of what the "consensus" is, then I don't know what to tell you. You're in denial it seems.

it's useless to debate these folks

it might be textbook definition of "insanity"

[Murdock2420]

(04-01-2021, 10:02 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He’s not though. There’s guys like McShay, Jeremiah, Kiper, etc that all have Chase ahead of Sewell. Some by a pretty significant margin. And why are guys like Tony Pike not able to be objective? What reason would he have to prefer one over the other?

I gotta say hearing Jeff Saturday and Foxworth who have no reason to side either way (Chase or Sewell) be so absolutely locked in on how bad it would be to not draft Sewell speaks louder then anything.

Saturday is one of the most respected and knowledgeable former players around. He has no reason to be bias for either side (like Willie Anderson might side with the line and the QB Pike would side with the explosive play maker.) Saturday is still after retirement a key member of the NFL Players Association, that is how highly his opinion is viewed in the NFL circles. Not sure how anyone could feel like he would be wrong in this situation.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-01-2021, 10:15 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I gotta say hearing Jeff Saturday and Foxworth who have no reason to side either way (Chase or Sewell) be so absolutely locked in on how bad it would be to not draft Sewell speaks louder then anything.

Saturday is one of the most respected and knowledgeable former players around. He has no reason to be bias for either side (like Willie Anderson might side with the line and the QB Pike would side with the explosive play maker.) Saturday is still after retirement a key member of the NFL Players Association, that is how highly his opinion is viewed in the NFL circles. Not sure how anyone could feel like he would be wrong in this situation.

So Saturday (a former olineman) has no bias towards OL, but Tony Pike as a former QB (who knows all about the importance of protection) is biased towards the WR? C’mon, Murdock. At least be consistent.

[Murdock2420]

(04-01-2021, 10:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So Saturday (a former olineman) has no bias towards OL, but Tony Pike as a former QB (who knows all about the importance of protection) is biased towards the WR? C’mon, Murdock. At least be consistent.

Saturday is a former O-lineman... and Foxworth is a former CB... both said Sewell.

But Saturday is more then a former OL guy. He is a guy that is counted on by the NFLPA after his retirement. He can't be bias to one position group, wouldn't be much good the NFLPA if he was biased.

Chase is a nice piece in a room that has talent. Higgins and Boyd are above average WR's I think everyone can agree to that.

The OL has no one that is a Higgins or a Boyd. Williams? Maybe, but he is less durable then Lawson who people were okay with him being gone cause he couldn't stay healthy. Reiff? He was hurt last year, we don't actually know what we have there. Spain, solid guy, decent player, but he is on the Auden Tate level of player. XSF, again, hurt last year and the year before in Dallas. So, what do we have there? Hopkins, tore his ACL, what will he be like when healthy?

This is actually really simple when you look at the groups and realize that Sewell and Chase are equally talented prospects. If you believe Chase is better, so be it, but he isn't like prospect 2 and Sewell is 22... it's more like Chase is 2 and Sewell is 3, 4, or 5 situation.

So, the gap in prospect talent is tiny. That means you look at what helps you more now and long-term. Look at the two position groups with what we know. Not what we hope... what we know. OL needs the talent more then WR. Sewell and Dyami Brown or Marshall Jr (I still think he or the guy from Ole Miss or both will be there at 38) is a great haul and will help more then say Chase and Eichenberg.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-01-2021, 10:27 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Saturday is a former O-lineman... and Foxworth is a former CB... both said Sewell.

But Saturday is more then a former OL guy. He is a guy that is counted on by the NFLPA after his retirement. He can't be bias to one position group, wouldn't be much good the NFLPA if he was biased.

Chase is a nice piece in a room that has talent. Higgins and Boyd are above average WR's I think everyone can agree to that.

The OL has no one that is a Higgins or a Boyd. Williams? Maybe, but he is less durable then Lawson who people were okay with him being gone cause he couldn't stay healthy. Reiff? He was hurt last year, we don't actually know what we have there. Spain, solid guy, decent player, but he is on the Auden Tate level of player. XSF, again, hurt last year and the year before in Dallas. So, what do we have there? Hopkins, tore his ACL, what will he be like when healthy?

This is actually really simple when you look at the groups and realize that Sewell and Chase are equally talented prospects. If you believe Chase is better, so be it, but he isn't like prospect 2 and Sewell is 22... it's more like Chase is 2 and Sewell is 3, 4, or 5 situation.

So, the gap in prospect talent is tiny. That means you look at what helps you more now and long-term. Look at the two position groups with what we know. Not what we hope... what we know. OL needs the talent more then WR. Sewell and Dyami Brown or Marshall Jr (I still think he or the guy from Ole Miss or both will be there at 38) is a great haul and will help more then say Chase and Eichenberg.

As I’ve said a million times I’ll be quite happy with Sewell. I’m just making the argument for why they might not go in that direction. I’m going to be good with either choice though (or Pitts). It’s you guys on the other side that are choosing to be miserable if you don’t get exactly what you want. I just wish the guys who are being super condescending and talking about shiny toys and how stupid everyone that disagrees with them are would be a little more open minded.

[Murdock2420]

(04-01-2021, 10:36 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: As I’ve said a million times I’ll be quite happy with Sewell. I’m just making the argument for why they might not go in that direction. I’m going to be good with either choice though (or Pitts). It’s you guys on the other side that are choosing to be miserable if you don’t get exactly what you want. I just wish the guys who are being super condescending and talking about shiny toys and how stupid everyone that disagrees with them are would be a little more open minded.

I am trying to not be condescending or shitty, I just can't understand why people wouldn't want the best player at the biggest position of need. It baffles me.

I got very frustrated at one point, took a step away and have come back and still stand on the belief that Sewell is the right choice, but I'm not trying to be a dick to people who like Chase. Like I said in the thread I just started, no one is going to change their mind based on anything someone post on here at this point. So unless Sewell absolutely tanks his Pro Day, the board will remain divided.

Reality is this, Sewell, Chase, Pitts... really doesn't matter. Tobin is still here, Taylor is still here and the Brown family still owns the team. They could get Sewell, Chase, and Pitts some how and they'd still under perform with those clowns in charge.

Oh... there is another name to add to the list of guys I'd take in round 2/3 and would have no issue with Chase or Pitts in one. The Clemson homer in me wants Carman... just can't figure out if he is going in round 2 or 3. He isn't a tackle in the NFL, but he'll be a monster guard. Oh... and he grew up in Cincinnati.. well Fairfield Ohio.

[Whatever]

(04-01-2021, 09:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. Regardless of which side you're on, you have to admit we've struggled with o-line picks lately.

Billy Price
Cedcric Ogbuehi
Jake Fisher

All busts.

Then you have the mid-round whiffs like...

Michael Jordan
JJ Dielman
Christian Westerman
Russell Bodine
Tanner Hawkinson

All taken between rounds 3-5. The last solid lineman we got in that range was Clint Boling in 2011.

That's what worries me about the "just get a lineman later" line of thinking.

If anything, the early round whiffs would scare them away from Sewell. The most important thing at #5 is to make sure they get a great player, not draft a certain position group.  If they have questions about Sewell and aren't confident in their OL evaluations, then they should take the player they are most confident in.  Even Willie didn't sound confident about Sewell and he's worked with him and is also a voice the Brown family trusts.

Some of those mid round guys aren't whiffs.  Bodine was a 4 year starter and graded out in the 60's every year he was here.  People bagged on him because he was the weakest link on the OL, but he was not a bad player, particularly for a 4th round pick.  Westerman was never a starter, but was a solid backup who played well when his number was called.

[Frank Booth]

(04-01-2021, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: Some of those mid round guys aren't whiffs.  Bodine was a 4 year starter and graded out in the 60's every year he was here.  People bagged on him because he was the weakest link on the OL, but he was not a bad player

can we ban pff?

it's literally re-writing history.

Bodine was terrible. God awful. Horrendous.

But pff says he wasnt bad. So we were wrong the whole time, people.

We were wrong

Bodine was good