The difference Pollack will make

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-04-2021, 12:44 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: He has some success and I thought we should interview him but i have mixed feelings for sure.. the Jets overall did not do that well under him... they gave up alot of sacks... 95 under Pollacks leadership as Oline coach....that is a worry 

Again, I’ll use Bill Callahan to make my point (he’s widely regarded as one of the best in the business), Washington gave up 94 sacks his final two seasons there. Sacks alone are not the end all be all in determining the quality of an OL coach.

I guarantee people would of been doing backflips if we landed him in 2020 despite his team giving up 50 sacks in 2019 and 44 in 2018.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Pollack pretty much had trash at the QB position for two years, too. That factors in to a lot of those sack numbers. A shell shocked Sam Darnold, and an ancient and immobile Joe Flacco.

[fredtoast]

(04-03-2021, 09:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is a side of this offense I don't get.

The Rams used Gurley a lot. I'm not here to say Mixon is as good as Todd Gurley but he is certainly good enough to be used more often.

Taylor wanted to run the ball more often last year but Burrow would not let him.

Don't you remember all the talk about how Joe was working with the coaches to adjust the offense to fit him.  When you let a rookie QB run the offense you are going to get 50 passes a game.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-04-2021, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Taylor wanted to run the ball more often last year but Burrow would not let him.

Don't you remember all the talk about how Joe was working with the coaches to adjust the offense to fit him.  When you let a rookie QB run the offense you are going to get 50 passes a game.

I know this post is bait, but I’ll bite. The extent of adjusting the offense to Burrow consisted mainly of picking about 10 of his favorite plays from LSU to incorporate. Taylor also had Dalton chucking it all over the field in 2019. 528 attempts in only 13 games. Including multiple games of 50+ attempts (3x) and 40+ (2x). And again, that was in 13 games. The only time Taylor ever doesn’t have his QB throw a ton is when they’re physically incapable of throwing a football down the field like Ryan Finley.

[lone bengal]

I like Pollack more than Turner but I feel like Pollack is somewhat overhyped. He had an all star line in Dallas and was released. I like what Pollack did in the run game but you can only do some much with bad talent. Hart had his worst season under Pollack giving up 10 sacks with a ton of penalties/ pressures. Remond sucked too and had a ton of penalties. Boiling was good but he was good before Pollock was hired and retired the following season due to blood clots. Glenn was somewhat serviceable at LT and didn't have a year long concussion like the following year. Price was ok at his natural position "Center" and Hopkins filled in after his injury and was solid at center just like he was under Turner. Some of those stats by Goodberry are misleading in terms of Price's "regression" under Turner. Hopkins has been a solid center so you cant say Turner made a mistake for starting him over Price. If Price played well under Pollack at guard that be one thing. Price mainly filled in at guard under Turner so im assuming those awful pass blocking grades posted by Goodberry are total snaps including the vast majority were Price played at guard which isn't his natural spot, when he played center he was serviceable. Spain was released mid season for a reason its not like Tuner ruined some all star player like the stats indicate.

[GodFather]

(04-03-2021, 07:08 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Let me preface this by saying I absolutely do not expect Pollack to come back here and perform miracles. He’s not going to turn guys like Spain and XSF into Pro Bowlers, but I think some are forgetting just how good of a coach he is (especially compared to what we had the last couple years). Saw this thread by Joe Goodberry and there’s some interesting numbers.

https://mobile.twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1377750950518095876?prefetchtimestamp=1617485977261

Where Pollack was ranked when he was here in Cincinnati is particularly impressive considering what he was working with that year.



And now he’s obviously going to have guys like Jonah and Reiff.

I am in no way shape or form advocating putting all our hopes on just him and not adding any more pieces to the OL. I want at 1-2 from this draft. But I feel so much better going into this season with an actual NFL caliber OL coach (and run game coordinator).

Just to put some things in perspective, last yer the Jets were the worst in the NFL with QB pressures. Pollack was the OL coach. I'm glad he is here and Turner is gone, but he isn't going to save this offense unless we get the players on the offensive line to actually change this. Existing OL players are what they are...and its not good.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-04-2021, 01:01 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Again, I’ll use Bill Callahan to make my point (he’s widely regarded as one of the best in the business), Washington gave up 94 sacks his final two seasons there. Sacks alone are not the end all be all in determining the quality of an OL coach.

I guarantee people would of been doing backflips if we landed him in 2020 despite his team giving up 50 sacks in 2019 and 44 in 2018.

So you are good this year giving up 47 sacks, let's mark that down..

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-04-2021, 04:41 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So you are good this year giving up 47 sacks, let's mark that down..

I don’t know why I even bother with you, but ofc not. We also don’t have complete trash at the QB position either though. It’s called context. Burrow takes some coverage sacks here and there from holding the ball too long, but he also processes at a much faster rate than a guy like Sam Darnold. *And we have way better weapons than the Jets (they literally have nothing). Unless you think a guy like Jamison Crowder being their leading WR with 699 yards doesn’t effect every part of their offense.

Why is it unreasonable to expect Pollack to have better results here? We’re not the Jets. Callahan went from a team that allowed 50 sacks in 2019, to a team that only gave up 26 in 2020. Yes the Browns have a much better OL, but they also have a better QB and better weapons that actually get open. All this stuff matters.

*and no I’m not saying we’re all set a WR. I’m just pointing out we have much better WR’s than the Jets.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-04-2021, 05:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t know why I even bother with you, but ofc not. We also don’t have complete trash at the QB position either though. It’s called context. Burrow takes some coverage sacks here and there from holding the ball too long, but he also processes at a much faster rate than a guy like Sam Darnold. *And we have way better weapons than the Jets (they literally have nothing). Unless you think a guy like Jamison Crowder being their leading WR with 699 yards doesn’t effect every part of their offense.

Why is it unreasonable to expect Pollack to have better results here? We’re not the Jets. Callahan went from a team that allowed 50 sacks in 2019, to a team that only gave up 26 in 2020. Yes the Browns have a much better OL, but they also have a better QB and better weapons that actually get open. All this stuff matters.

*and no I’m not saying we’re all set a WR. I’m just pointing out we have much better WR’s than the Jets.

So why do I bother with u, so in the end your good with 40 plus sacks  after all the wind you just blow..got it..

[Essex Johnson]

(04-04-2021, 12:09 PM)GodFather Wrote: Just to put some things in perspective, last yer the Jets were the worst in the NFL with QB pressures. Pollack was the OL coach. I'm glad he is here and Turner is gone, but he isn't going to save this offense unless we get the players on the offensive line to actually change this. Existing OL players are what they are...and its not good.

thank you.. im not saying Pollack is not bad but to act like he is such a upgrade is ignoring the fact that the Jets got worse under him not better with drafting a #1 pick in Becton, with a #3 round pick in 2019 plus picking up a starting guard in FA in 2020  and they regressed in 19/20 over 17/18 and just to educate those.. in 17 Josh McCown was the QB and in 18 Donald was a rookie.... so not like they had a good OB under center in 17/18 before Pollack took over as Oline coach...

[Fan_in_Kettering]

The offensive line needs to open more seams for Joe Mixon. Last year he encountered more butts than a proctologist.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-04-2021, 07:05 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: thank you.. im not saying Pollack is not bad but to act like he is such a upgrade is ignoring the fact that the Jets got worse under him not better with drafting a #1 pick in Becton, with a #3 round pick in 2019 plus picking up a starting guard in FA in 2020  and they regressed in 19/20 over 17/18 and just to educate those.. in 17 Josh McCown was the QB and in 18 Donald was a rookie.... so not like they had a good OB under center in 17/18 before Pollack took over as Oline coach...

Josh McCown is an 18 year veteran who was FAR better in 2017 than Darnold has been at any point in his career so far.. He had a very solid season that year. In 13 games he completed 67.3% of his passes, had 18 TD to 9 INT, 2926 yards, and 94.5 Passer rating.

Darnold was dead last in passer rating in 2020 (ie not his rookie year). But yeah, Pollack’s the one who stinks...

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-04-2021, 09:13 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Josh McCown is an 18 year veteran who was FAR better in 2017 than Darnold has been at any point in his career so far.. He had a very solid season that year. In 13 games he completed 67.3% of his passes, had 18 TD to 9 INT, 2926 yards, and 94.5 Passer rating.

Darnold was dead last in passer rating in 2020 (ie not his rookie year). But yeah, Pollack’s the one who stinks...

People also need to realise that outside of Becton, there were a pretty terrible line; they had no names and bad numbers.

[Benton]

(04-03-2021, 11:57 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The only thing I don’t understand is that if pollack is so good why has he never landed a job on a better team? I’m sure he has his reasons but it’s weird to bounce back between the Bengals and the Jets.

I wouldn't worry about that so much. Look at Dick LeBeau.

He spent almost all his time in Cincinnati or Pittsburgh (yeah, I know, he had a couple other minor stops, but nothing much). Dude is lauded as a defensive genius. Pretty much two stops, didn't really do well when promoted. 

Pollack may be of a similar mold. He may be super good as a line/running coach... and that's it. And that's ok. I'd take a super good position coach if he helps fix the position. Every coach on a team doesn't have to be head coach material, sometimes they just have to know what they're doing at that position.

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-04-2021, 06:06 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: So why do I bother with u, so in the end your good with 40 plus sacks  after all the wind you just blow..got it..

You still just don't get how anything works. 

[Joelist]

Basically it seems to boil down to "the Bengals did it so it must be bad"...the other version is "they didn't do exactly what I wanted them to do so it must be bad"...

[Joelist]

As to Pollack and Turner it has been shown via sold stats that Pollack had the line developing nicely as 2018 went on. Then Turner came in and in 2019 and 2020 the same players Pollack had developing ok regressed. Now of course they are mostly gone as the line has undergone a lot of turnover between last offseason and this offseason. We also have more young players to develop and Pollack has proven in his career he can do that. We will also be adding at least 1 if not 2 linemen from the draft so there is a lot of room for teaching.

What we REALLY need here is not only for Pollack to coach the kids up but to hopefully not have the rash of injuries we have been having, so that we can run the same group out for enough games in a row for chemistry to develop.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-03-2021, 08:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Pollack made absolute slop look almost average last time around.

I want better than almost average though, and Reiff is only locked up for 1 year.

Happy we got Pollack back though, no doubt.

You can bet the Bengals will end up with at least one tackle from the first two rounds, and surely one guard from rounds 3-8.  My guess would be a total of 3-4 picks on the offensive line.  

[bengaloo]

(04-05-2021, 09:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You can bet the Bengals will end up with at least one tackle from the first two rounds, and surely one guard from rounds 3-8.  My guess would be a total of 3-4 picks on the offensive line.  

They will need it for sure. I think Pollack is a better OL coach than Turner, but he still has to have good players to coach or its all for not. I've been torn this offseason when looking at Chase and Pitts maybe being there at 5, but the more I think about it, I'd rather them focus on the OL even in the 1st. Its the biggest team weakness. Burrow got crushed all season and finally Washington put him out. We have to get better blockers for him and Mixon and the future of the offense. I'd like to see us draft 2-3 OLmen for sure. I was leaning Chase or Pitts for a minute, but we have two pro bowl caliber WR's on the team already who are young and Tate is no slouch. A QB like Burrow with a good OL will thrive on that. We can fill the rest of the WR spots with solid guys and Burrow will make them look better. Open up the run game and we're a contending type offense if we have an above average OL. 

I'm for going all in on the OL for Pollack and Burrow's sake. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-03-2021, 07:31 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Throwing that much is simply unsustainable for long term success. You would also think the FO would want to get their money’s worth out of Mixon. Anyway, I like that we gave Pollack the title of run game coordinator. I trust him to game plan more than I do Callahan and Taylor.

I do think (or hope) this is a crucial year for Mixon.
Starting in 2022, there will start becoming money saved by moving on from him, which the team might choose to do if the running game doesn't get going.

2022 - $11.45 mill cap hit, $8.25 mill dead cap ($3.2 mill savings if cut)
2023 - $12.85 mill cap hit, $5.5 mill dead cap ($7.35 mill savings if cut)
2024 - $13.133 mill cap hit, $2.75 mill dead cap ($10.383 mill savings if cut)

Given Mixon has put up back-to-back 1300+ yards from scrimmage when he was the RB1 and played 14+ games in the year, the Bengals probably wouldn't move on from him until 2023 at least. At that point, they should have the OL figured out (we hope), so there should be no excuses if the running game is bad.

It's also worth noting that Mixon's best YPC (4.9) was when Pollack was the OL coach in 2018.
Without Pollack, it's been, at best, 4.1.