The difference Pollack will make

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-05-2021, 10:29 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I do think (or hope) this is a crucial year for Mixon.
Starting in 2022, there will start becoming money saved by moving on from him, which the team might choose to do if the running game doesn't get going.

2022 - $11.45 mill cap hit, $8.25 mill dead cap ($3.2 mill savings if cut)
2023 - $12.85 mill cap hit, $5.5 mill dead cap ($7.35 mill savings if cut)
2024 - $13.133 mill cap hit, $2.75 mill dead cap ($10.383 mill savings if cut)

Given Mixon has put up back-to-back 1300+ yards from scrimmage when he was the RB1 and played 14+ games in the year, the Bengals probably wouldn't move on from him until 2023 at least. At that point, they should have the OL figured out (we hope), so there should be no excuses if the running game is bad.

It's also worth noting that Mixon's best YPC (4.9) was when Pollack was the OL coach in 2018.
Without Pollack, it's been, at best, 4.1.

Yeah, Mixon LOVED Pollack. He was quite vocal about his feelings over both his departure and his return.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-05-2021, 10:12 AM)bengaloo Wrote: They will need it for sure. I think Pollack is a better OL coach than Turner, but he still has to have good players to coach or its all for not. I've been torn this offseason when looking at Chase and Pitts maybe being there at 5, but the more I think about it, I'd rather them focus on the OL even in the 1st. Its the biggest team weakness. Burrow got crushed all season and finally Washington put him out. We have to get better blockers for him and Mixon and the future of the offense. I'd like to see us draft 2-3 OLmen for sure. I was leaning Chase or Pitts for a minute, but we have two pro bowl caliber WR's on the team already who are young and Tate is no slouch. A QB like Burrow with a good OL will thrive on that. We can fill the rest of the WR spots with solid guys and Burrow will make them look better. Open up the run game and we're a contending type offense if we have an above average OL. 

I'm for going all in on the OL for Pollack and Burrow's sake. 

I understand your logic, and when I say I am team "Chase", it isn't a desire to get Burrow killed or ignore the offensive line.  I just see the drop off in talent from an elite star like Chase to the WRs that should be there in Rd 2 as much greater than the drop off from a player like Sewell to the OTs that should be available in Rd 2.  

Keeping Burrow upright is one part of the puzzle, but when you have a QB like Burrow, you want to surround him with playmakers.  

People seem to forget that the biggest issue with this team wasn't at OT at all, it was at guard.  That position was improved by year's end but still needs an upgrade at the RG spot, which there should be plenty of options in the draft.  If a guy like Walker Little drops to Rd 2 (very realistic), I could see HIM starting at RT and Reiff moving inside to RG as we would likely also have a later round pick being groomed to be the RG of the future. 

And because you can't have too many OTs and Gs that are quality for depth and competition, should Spencer Brown fall to the 4th round due to his year off and small-school tag, I would take him at the top of the 4th as well.

Yep, it could be 4 straight picks on offense:  Ideally, Chase, Little, Banks, and then Brown.  WR, OT, G, OT.  It actually makes sense given all the FA activity on the defensive side of the ball and there would like possibly be more cap cuts that could bolster the pass rush.  A part of me is still really holding out hope for Kerrigan.  

[Brownshoe]

I always heard that elite QBs could elevate the playmaker around him. If that's the case and you don't need a elite supporting cast then build up the OL to allow plays to develop and protect that elite QB. Unless people have been talking out of their ass since 2011

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2021, 12:06 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I always heard that elite QBs could elevate the playmaker around him. If that's the case and you don't need a elite supporting cast then build up the OL to allow plays to develop and protect that elite QB. Unless people have been talking out of their ass since 2011

REP!!

Hell, when we drafted Burrow there were actually people arguing that he did not even need a good O-line because he was so amazing at scrambling and making plays outside of the pocket.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Burrow might be elite at some point, but he’s not yet. That’s what you guys don’t seem to understand.

[Joelist]

If you look at the game logs for last season you see something interesting - once we had a consistent lineup on the OL and especially once XSF and Spain were at Guard a lot of the pass protection problems abruptly ceased. In fact, over the last 4 games (where they had a stable lineup and XSF/Spain) they surrendered only 2 sacks and 11 pressures.

Now don’t take this as me saying the OL is fine and needs no more help. Yes I am very happy to have Pollack especially instead of Turner and Reiff is a MAJOR upgrade at RT. And yes (and stats prove it) Spain and XSF are both good, sound Guards. But the cupboard behind them is bare and Center is unsettled. Plus this draft is a deep one at OL and the talent in that depth is high - so we need to take advantage of that. And now that Turner is gone I don’t feel like drafting linemen is a waste (because I had no faith that Turner would or could develop them).

So, I am fine taking Chase (and see the benefit in terms of making the passing game stronger) and likewise fine with Sewell. The main difference is the draft depth at WR is not there this season - after the top 2-3 you get receivers with real gaps in their game. Thus there is more sense in Chase on that count so long as IF we go Chase THEN we go OL in 2 and 3. Restock the cupboard so to speak.

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2021, 12:45 PM)Joelist Wrote:  once we had a consistent lineup on the OL and especially once XSF and Spain were at Guard a lot of the pass protection problems abruptly ceased. In fact, over the last 4 games (where they had a stable lineup and XSF/Spain) they surrendered only 2 sacks and 11 pressures.

Our pass protection problems did not "abruptly cease".  IN fact our passing game was horrible over the last 4 games because our QBs were either constantly throwing the ball away or throwing it less than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage.

Against the Steelers we only had 7 completions for 89 yards and allowed 2 sacks in just 13 pass attempts.

Against the Ravens we only had 6 completions for 48 yards and scored only 3 points.

Against the Cowboys we did have 28 completions but they averaged less than 8 yards per completion.  That is the main reason we only scored 7 points.

We did not look that bad against the Texans, but their defense ranked 27th or lower in "hurry percentage", "pressure percentage" and "QB Knockdown percentage".

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-03-2021, 07:08 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Let me preface this by saying I absolutely do not expect Pollack to come back here and perform miracles. He’s not going to turn guys like Spain and XSF into Pro Bowlers, but I think some are forgetting just how good of a coach he is (especially compared to what we had the last couple years). Saw this thread by Joe Goodberry and there’s some interesting numbers.

https://mobile.twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1377750950518095876?prefetchtimestamp=1617485977261

Where Pollack was ranked when he was here in Cincinnati is particularly impressive considering what he was working with that year.



And now he’s obviously going to have guys like Jonah and Reiff.

I am in no way shape or form advocating putting all our hopes on just him and not adding any more pieces to the OL. I want at 1-2 from this draft. But I feel so much better going into this season with an actual NFL caliber OL coach (and run game coordinator).

Nice thread, Pollack will definitely help we just need to add a couple more guys to the room and as TLL and you said,
we need to run the ball much more and pass the ball much less this season. This will help everyone and OL naturally 
like to run block. Taylor needs to realize this.

[bengaloo]

(04-05-2021, 10:54 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I understand your logic, and when I say I am team "Chase", it isn't a desire to get Burrow killed or ignore the offensive line.  I just see the drop off in talent from an elite star like Chase to the WRs that should be there in Rd 2 as much greater than the drop off from a player like Sewell to the OTs that should be available in Rd 2.  

Keeping Burrow upright is one part of the puzzle, but when you have a QB like Burrow, you want to surround him with playmakers.  

People seem to forget that the biggest issue with this team wasn't at OT at all, it was at guard.  That position was improved by year's end but still needs an upgrade at the RG spot, which there should be plenty of options in the draft.  If a guy like Walker Little drops to Rd 2 (very realistic), I could see HIM starting at RT and Reiff moving inside to RG as we would likely also have a later round pick being groomed to be the RG of the future. 

And because you can't have too many OTs and Gs that are quality for depth and competition, should Spencer Brown fall to the 4th round due to his year off and small-school tag, I would take him at the top of the 4th as well.

Yep, it could be 4 straight picks on offense:  Ideally, Chase, Little, Banks, and then Brown.  WR, OT, G, OT.  It actually makes sense given all the FA activity on the defensive side of the ball and there would like possibly be more cap cuts that could bolster the pass rush.  A part of me is still really holding out hope for Kerrigan.  

You bring up some very good points as always. I've been on and off who I hope we draft at 5. It was Sewell, then Chase, then Pitts, then Chase and now again Sewell lol. But the truth is, you are right about a lot of what you said. If we draft Chase and then OL in 2 and more in 3-4, I will definitely be happy. The OL we are coming into the season with is definitely better than the OL we were heading into last season with, especially with Reiff and Spain having a full offseason here. I know one thing, it cant get much worse than Jordan at LG and also Johnson playing RG next to Bobby Hart. Reiff and either Spain or XSF is definitely an improvement on the right side. Anyone is an improvement over Jordan. He is still young but he was pretty awful.  I've always been really old school on how I like my teams. Run and stop the run all the way, but I'm starting to warm more to this new high powered offense stuff and the thing Burrow could do loaded with weapons. 

I love your 4 straight picks on offense and think that would upgrade the team for sure. Sewell looks like a future All Pro, but so does Chase. Either way we are in position to get a great player at 5.  

[impactplaya]

(04-05-2021, 01:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Our pass protection problems did not "abruptly cease".  IN fact our passing game was horrible over the last 4 games because our QBs were either constantly throwing the ball away or throwing it less than 5 yards past the line of scrimmage.

Against the Steelers we only had 7 completions for 89 yards and allowed 2 sacks in just 13 pass attempts.

Against the Ravens we only had 6 completions for 48 yards and scored only 3 points.

Against the Cowboys we did have 28 completions but they averaged less than 8 yards per completion.  That is the main reason we only scored 7 points.

We did not look that bad against the Texans, but their defense ranked 27th or lower in "hurry percentage", "pressure percentage" and "QB Knockdown percentage".

Going off memory in those games you listed
In that Steelers game no way was ZT going to let pixie arm
Findley throw it more than 20 times.
I think the Steelers got him on coverage sacks

The Ravens just dialed up pressure from everywhere
The Bengals got down early by a big margain.
I think Tee got hurt and that really hurt the offense
You had your choice of Erickson and Sample to throw too.
Both have the explosiveness of dime store squirtgun.
The Ravens were dropping  7 8 on coverage.

The Cowboys game was marred by 3 straight fumbles
Allen couldnt get any big plays downfield. I think the Cowboys
We're playing a 2-deep zone.

Texans game the Bengals ran the ball well which helped
Cool off anykind of pass rush

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-05-2021, 01:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Our pass protection problems did not "abruptly cease".  

Last 4 games. 2 sacks, 23 total pressures.

Previous 4 games, 12 sacks, 64 total pressures. 

1/6th the number of sacks and almost 1/3rd the number of pressures. That's pretty abrupt.

[Joelist]

(04-05-2021, 03:14 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Going off memory in those games you listed
In that Steelers game no way was ZT going to let pixie arm
Findley throw it more than 20 times.
I think the Steelers got him on coverage sacks

The Ravens just dialed up pressure from everywhere
The Bengals got down early by a big margain.
I think Tee got hurt and that really hurt the offense
You had your choice of Erickson and Sample to throw too.
Both have the explosiveness of dime store squirtgun.
The Ravens were dropping  7 8 on coverage.

The Cowboys game was marred by 3 straight fumbles
Allen couldnt get any big plays downfield. I think the Cowboys
We're playing a 2-deep zone.

Texans game the Bengals ran the ball well which helped
Cool off anykind of pass rush

Yep!

I'm not sure why some are so desperate not to allow for any thought that the line might have improved later in the season, or that Spain and XSF could be good Guards. Neither thing affects our needing additional OL help. 

[Joelist]

(04-05-2021, 03:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Last 4 games. 2 sacks, 23 total pressures.

Previous 4 games, 12 sacks, 64 total pressures. 

1/6th the number of sacks and almost 1/3rd the number of pressures. That's pretty abrupt.

Thanks! I went back to Pro Football Reference to recheck pressures and got 19. So I'll go with your 23. I think my earlier number is a typo. 

[fredtoast]

(04-05-2021, 03:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Last 4 games. 2 sacks, 23 total pressures.

Previous 4 games, 12 sacks, 64 total pressures. 

1/6th the number of sacks and almost 1/3rd the number of pressures. That's pretty abrupt.

But the protection did not get that much better.  Instead our QBs were either throwing the ball away or not throwing it over 5 yards downfield.

If our QBs did not have any protection problems they would be getting a hell of a lot more than just 6 or 7 total completions for an entire game.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-03-2021, 07:08 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Let me preface this by saying I absolutely do not expect Pollack to come back here and perform miracles. He’s not going to turn guys like Spain and XSF into Pro Bowlers, but I think some are forgetting just how good of a coach he is (especially compared to what we had the last couple years). Saw this thread by Joe Goodberry and there’s some interesting numbers.

https://mobile.twitter.com/joegoodberry/status/1377750950518095876?prefetchtimestamp=1617485977261

Where Pollack was ranked when he was here in Cincinnati is particularly impressive considering what he was working with that year.



And now he’s obviously going to have guys like Jonah and Reiff.

I am in no way shape or form advocating putting all our hopes on just him and not adding any more pieces to the OL. I want at 1-2 from this draft. But I feel so much better going into this season with an actual NFL caliber OL coach (and run game coordinator).

You most certainly ARE advocating that....

Seriously, that's some interesting information. I thought he did an admirable job considering what he was working with. I didn't think it was that good though. Good stuff.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-03-2021, 09:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: That is a side of this offense I don't get.

The Rams used Gurley a lot. I'm not here to say Mixon is as good as Todd Gurley but he is certainly good enough to be used more often.

From my recollection, we got stuffed a bunch trying to run. Now granted, they may have been guilty of going away from it too early, but between that and the porous defense, there was a lot of playing behind, and playing behind the sticks. I think that played a major role. Now with Pollack coaching, and in charge of the run game, we may see a better mix this season. Especially with upgrading the personnel also.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-03-2021, 10:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Thanks for posting those.  As Joelist already said, it gives some validation to what most of us already knew.  Letting Pollack go in the first place was just an asinine decision on the part of Zac Taylor, for not taking the time to actually get to know Pollack before deciding "other" was the route to go.

Pollack left on his own accord, both the FO and Taylor wanted him to stay from what I recall.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-03-2021, 11:37 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Here's what i believe the likely scenario is. When the Bengals and Zac talked, he let them know that he was looking to bring Turner in, OR he had a couple guys in mind and was willing to have Pollack interview for the postition. 

I'm thinking that without any kind of assurance that he was going to be back, Pollack decided it was time to go seek new employment while the gettin' was good. If he waits too long, there's no openings. 

At least, that's what my gut is saying. 

That may hold some merit. I thought I recalled Zac wanting him to stay, but my memory ain't what it once was.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-05-2021, 01:22 AM)Joelist Wrote: As to Pollack and Turner it has been shown via sold stats that Pollack had the line developing nicely as 2018 went on. Then Turner came in and in 2019 and 2020 the same players Pollack had developing ok regressed. Now of course they are mostly gone as the line has undergone a lot of turnover between last offseason and this offseason. We also have more young players to develop and Pollack has proven in his career he can do that. We will also be adding at least 1 if not 2 linemen from the draft so there is a lot of room for teaching.

What we REALLY need here is not only for Pollack to coach the kids up but to hopefully not have the rash of injuries we have been having, so that we can run the same group out for enough games in a row for chemistry to develop.

Your point about chemistry has absolutely been a very big problem for this team with injuries.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-05-2021, 12:06 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I always heard that elite QBs could elevate the playmaker around him. If that's the case and you don't need a elite supporting cast then build up the OL to allow plays to develop and protect that elite QB. Unless people have been talking out of their ass since 2011

You hit the nail on the head there....look at Brady...not much world class talent at WR, but he had ALL DAY to scan the field in NE. In Tampa, he has better talent at the skill positions AND a good line. The result? Well....