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(04-08-2021, 10:59 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I think you are not understanding fully how a rollover works. Ant of the money they roll over, gives the team extra cap money the following year.
Explain that to fred. Most fans understand the difference between the cap and the effective cap. Fred’s just trying to obfuscate the two. Claiming the Bengals spend over the league salary cap is misleading at best when their effective cap is $20M in excess of the league salary cap.
Who gives a F if the Bengals spend $1M more than the league salary cap if their effective salary cap is $10-20M in excess of the league salary cap?
Quote:The cap in 2021 is 185 million for all teams. Teams that spent their cap money only have 185 million. The Bengals always roll over the cap money(not they don't pocket it) that is not spent to the cap allotment.
So, I think in 2021 instead of having 185 million we had 197 or 198 million. If we had spent it 2020, we would have had only 185 million and right now only 12 or 13 million left with 8 million needed for rookie contracts.
So, in 2021 Bengals were one of few teams that did not have to restructure deals (these teams get future cap hits for 2 to 4 years per deal). In other words, some teams are already spending money in 2022 ad beyond that they are actually paying out in future years to keep players. I call it kicking the can down the road and worrying about it later.
Basically, teams are giving themselves an interest free loan to create cap space so they don’t need to cut players this year because they know there will be more cap space a available next year.
Quote:This tactic worked great as long as the cap kept increasing by 10 to 20% a year, but in 2021 the cap decreased so left many teams in a bind. Do Eagles trade Wentz if they have no cap issues? I say no, but since he was disgruntled and they had to get rid of a big salary, they traded him in my opinion. I think they will trade Zac Ertz for same reason as they still have cap issues.
So it doesn’t work in years when we have a pandemic once every century.
Quote:Hopefully this explains it, Bengals spend 100% of their cap, just do 2 ways, one being rolling it over so their cap money is spent over 2 year period. Others spend 100% of cap and go the other way and spend in current year future cap dollars bonuses paid now and become dead money if player is cut or traded or goes against their cap each year until the prorated portion of the bonus is paid off.
In other words, other teams are spending money over a two year period, also. Or possibly longer.
And the Bengals don’t spend 100% if they rollover money every year.
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(04-08-2021, 03:30 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If they roll over 13 million, then have 13 million left the next year, they indeed spend 100% of the cap for the previous year.
Bengals have a savings plan (rollover) and Saints a huge credit card they can't pay off, only can afford payments each year
And if the roll that $13M over again? Are they really spending it if they just keep pushing it forward into the next year? No.
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(04-08-2021, 08:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And if the roll that $13M over again? Are they really spending it if they just keep pushing it forward into the next year? No.
You are wrong. Only if they have cap money left and don't roll 100% over. They have rolled over 100% every year.
As for an earlier post you made, I agree teams had every reason to believe cap would go up forever so their tactic worked very well. But then this year they were screwed so let's deal with the her and now.
Bengals just gained 4.1 million more to use in 2021. I am not a GM, but I am banking on very good players getting cut. The teams with the money will be able to sign them at big discounts to one year deals. I predict the cuts come after the draft for those teams who can't sign their draft picks once they know they drafted their replacement. For example, Pitts probably is gone top 6, but if Eagles drafted Pitts, Ertz likely is cut.
So again, FA is not over, trades are not over, not even close for 2021 so glad we have cap money, because my prediction is cap goes up 15% minimum in 2022 even with the league taking some cap money from 2022 and 2023 to get to 185 million in 2021.
2024 may go on record as one of most underperforming teams in Bengal history. Bengal's FO has major work to do on defensive side of the ball. I say tag and trade Tee Higgins in 2025 to start with the rebuild.
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(04-08-2021, 10:03 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: No it’s not. He’s not as good as Gio at it, but he’s hardly a liability either.
I think the loss to the Cardinals where Mixon blew a block that would have gotten Andy a 1st down and likely a win for Zac and the team, put him on my watch list.
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(04-08-2021, 12:54 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: While the Bengals were already sitting on like $23m in unused cap space, no less. Not like they asked him to take a cut so they could get under the cap, or so they could have enough room to sign a FA.
Honestly my biggest problem is that in an offseason where they have already done embarrassingly little to protect Joe Burrow, this move makes Burrow's protection worse.
The increase from Hart to Reiff just got cut down off at the knees a little by removing Bernard's blocking. Mixon is not a good blocker and unless Zac Taylor completely changes his approach this season, he's going to call an offense where the starting QB is going to make an absurd amount of pass attempts.
I posted the pressure numbers a while back. Gio was a very good protector but Mixon isn't really bad.
That aside, if i'm Gio and the Bengals sign me to a contract, then come to me a couple years later and ask me to take a pay cut when they're not strapped for cash in any way shape or form, and i've toed the company line, my reaction is probably going to be like this...
![[Image: 2671e0601faf3b43874e061ff665e3e2.png]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/26/71/e0/2671e0601faf3b43874e061ff665e3e2.png)
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(04-08-2021, 09:18 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: It will become more apparent this season, you'll see.
The actual numbers, on a per snap basis, don't support your opinion.
"The measure of a man's intelligence can be seen in the length of his argument."
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(04-08-2021, 09:56 AM)3wt Wrote: Sure this has been said in the thread already, but I just don't understand the need to save money to the extent that we now have to draft someone else in a different position group. Seems like we could have saved this for next year. We have enough needs to cover in the 8 picks we have. And he's a quality back in all 3 phases.
They have Mixon, Perine and Williams with Patrick on the PS. They don't need to draft another RB, as there will likely be cuts in TC to pick up.
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(04-08-2021, 08:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You are wrong. Only if they have cap money left and don't roll 100% over. They have rolled over 100% every year.
As for an earlier post you made, I agree teams had every reason to believe cap would go up forever so their tactic worked very well. But then this year they were screwed so let's deal with the her and now.
Bengals just gained 4.1 million more to use in 2021. I am not a GM, but I am banking on very good players getting cut. The teams with the money will be able to sign them at big discounts to one year deals. I predict the cuts come after the draft for those teams who can't sign their draft picks once they know they drafted their replacement. For example, Pitts probably is gone top 6, but if Eagles drafted Pitts, Ertz likely is cut.
So again, FA is not over, trades are not over, not even close for 2021 so glad we have cap money, because my prediction is cap goes up 15% minimum in 2022 even with the league taking some cap money from 2022 and 2023 to get to 185 million in 2021.
At best, this roster moves saves the Bengals 2% of the 2021 salary cap. If we use their adjusted salary cap due to their rollover it saves 0.5%. And it won’t even save them that percentage because they have created a roster hole and a potential draft need.
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(04-08-2021, 08:41 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You are wrong. Only if they have cap money left and don't roll 100% over. They have rolled over 100% every year.
This actually isn't true. I'm too lazy to find all of the numbers again (I've brought this a few times), but you'll just have to trust me.
Teams elect how much money to rollover. The Bengals haven't rolled all of it over every time. This isn't necessarily a shot at them because I'm sure the same is true for a number of teams.
The biggest problem many have (myself included) isn't whether they roll over 87% or 100% of unspent money in a given year, it's that they roll over money every single year. They continually kick the can down the road. They've legit rolled over money every single year since the CBA was re-done.
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Gio says good bye.....
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They didn't win and we don't beleive
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(04-09-2021, 01:53 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:
This actually isn't true. I'm too lazy to find all of the numbers again (I've brought this a few times), but you'll just have to trust me.
Teams elect how much money to rollover. The Bengals haven't rolled all of it over every time. This isn't necessarily a shot at them because I'm sure the same is true for a number of teams.
The biggest problem many have (myself included) isn't whether they roll over 87% or 100% of unspent money in a given year, it's that they roll over money every single year. They continually kick the can down the road. They've legit rolled over money every single year since the CBA was re-done.
I can't recall the Bengals not rolling over 100% of excess cap money the last 10 years (recent history and what is impacting the 2021 teams and teams last 3 years). So, by all means provide facts to back up your bolded comment above.
Also Bengals do some kicking of the can down the road giving players huge bonuses immediately, then spreading the cap over year(s) down the road. It is why Geno had a huge dead money hit. So, Fred is right, Bengals have spent over the cap in some years (cash spend) so they are not pocketing money like some have suggested.
2024 may go on record as one of most underperforming teams in Bengal history. Bengal's FO has major work to do on defensive side of the ball. I say tag and trade Tee Higgins in 2025 to start with the rebuild.
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(04-09-2021, 09:07 AM)pally Wrote: Gio says good bye.....
Class act til the end, not surprised.
I hope he gets a great new start.
2024 may go on record as one of most underperforming teams in Bengal history. Bengal's FO has major work to do on defensive side of the ball. I say tag and trade Tee Higgins in 2025 to start with the rebuild.
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(04-09-2021, 09:49 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I can't recall the Bengals not rolling over 100% of excess cap money the last 10 years (recent history and what is impacting the 2021 teams and teams last 3 years). So, by all means provide facts to back up your bolded comment above.
Also Bengals do some kicking of the can down the road giving players huge bonuses immediately, then spreading the cap over year(s) down the road. It is why Geno had a huge dead money hit. So, Fred is right, Bengals have spent over the cap in some years (cash spend) so they are not pocketing money like some have suggested.
I'm not sure if it was 100% of the excess cap, but here's the amount rolled over by year for as far back as I can find:
2020 rollover - $10.972 mill
2019 rollover - $10.247 mill
2018 rollover - $7.484 mill
2017 rollover - $11.583 mill
Avg - $10.0715 mill per year
Apparently you can't go back before that unless you are a premium member on Spotrac.
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Zac Taylor 2023: 9 wins despite losing Burrow half the season
Zac Taylor 2024: Started 1-4. If he can turn this into a playoff appearance, it will be impressive.
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(04-08-2021, 08:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And if the roll that $13M over again? Are they really spending it if they just keep pushing it forward into the next year? No.
Over the ten years since the re-did the CBA the Bengals have only accumulated about an extra $10 million.
That means they have spent on average within about 1 million of the league cap each year.
You guys keep trying to act like the Bengals don't spend close to the league cap any year. That just is not true. As recently as 2019 the Bengals were 21st in amount of unused cap space.
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(04-09-2021, 09:07 AM)pally Wrote: Gio says good bye.....
Typical Gio. I'll always remember how great Gio, AJ and Andy were as professionals and human beings...and how incredibly quiet Geno was. 
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
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(04-09-2021, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the ten years since the re-did the CBA the Bengals have only accumulated about an extra $10 million.
That means they have spent on average within about 1 million of the league cap each year.
You guys keep trying to act like the Bengals don't spend close to the league cap any year. That just is not true. As recently as 2019 the Bengals were 21st in amount of unused cap space.
In the first year of the CBA which allowed salary cap roll over, the Bengals rolled over $15M. The following season they spent more than the league salary cap because their ADJUSTED salary cap was $15M more.
When they have an adjusted salary cap $15M in excess of the league salary cap which one determines how much the Bengals have to spend, fred? The adjusted salary cap. You know this. So who gives a F if they spend over the league salary cap when they have an additional $15M from unused salary cap room from the previous season? That’s blatant obfuscation.
At the end of that season, they rolled over $8.5M. So they didn’t use all of the rollover. Because they continued to rollover. So they don’t spend 100% of their salary cap and claiming they do is false.
And you’ve already admitted the Bengals never exceed their adjusted salary cap pages ago.
Do you realize the Bengals rolled over $11.6M following the season they tried to low ball Whitworth? Just another example of the Bengals asking for a hometown discount when they could have afforded a player, but then they had no plan on how to use the cap savings so they just rolled it over for the sake of rolling it over.
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(04-10-2021, 04:20 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: In the first year of the CBA which allowed salary cap roll over, the Bengals rolled over $15M. The following season they spent more than the league salary cap because their ADJUSTED salary cap was $15M more.
When they have an adjusted salary cap $15M in excess of the league salary cap which one determines how much the Bengals have to spend, fred? The adjusted salary cap. You know this. So who gives a F if they spend over the league salary cap when they have an additional $15M from unused salary cap room from the previous season? That’s blatant obfuscation.
At the end of that season, they rolled over $8.5M. So they didn’t use all of the rollover. Because they continued to rollover. So they don’t spend 100% of their salary cap and claiming they do is false.
And you’ve already admitted the Bengals never exceed their adjusted salary cap pages ago.
Do you realize the Bengals rolled over $11.6M following the season they tried to low ball Whitworth? Just another example of the Bengals asking for a hometown discount when they could have afforded a player, but then they had no plan on how to use the cap savings so they just rolled it over for the sake of rolling it over.
I am not "Obfuscating" anything. I am just pointing out that the Bengals are not a cheap team when it come to paying their players.
There are people on here who think the Bengals are always at the top of the league in unused cap space and that is not true.
There are people where who think the Bengals pocket all the cap space they don't use and that is not true.
Everyone needs to look at the numbers and see what all the other teams in the league do instead of just bashing the Bengals for being cheap. Since you are such an expert on this then give me a list of all the NFL teams that use all their cap space every year.
And the offer to Whitworth was about years not total salary. So cap space had nothing to do with that.
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Not mad that I own one signed jersey and it's his.
I thought I read somewhere we had the most cap space among all teams allotted to RB before this cut.
I know Gio was good at blocking.... but damn it man. I saw the littlest dude on our team blocking some of the biggest baddest mofos they were throwing at us more often than I should have.
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(04-10-2021, 09:30 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I thought I read somewhere we had the most cap space among all teams allotted to RB before this cut.
Last year Mixon's cap hit was less than $4. This year it more than doubles to over $8 million.
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(04-10-2021, 09:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not "Obfuscating" anything. I am just pointing out that the Bengals are not a cheap team when it come to paying their players.
Claiming the Bengals spend over the league salary cap while ignoring their adjusted salary cap is $10-15M above the league salary cap is obfuscation.
Quote:There are people on here who think the Bengals are always at the top of the league in unused cap space and that is not true.
Straw man. Not a single person in this thread has claimed this.
Quote:There are people where who think the Bengals pocket all the cap space they don't use and that is not true.
Straw man. Not a single person in this thread has claimed this.
Quote:Everyone needs to look at the numbers and see what all the other teams in the league do instead of just bashing the Bengals for being cheap. Since you are such an expert on this then give me a list of all the NFL teams that use all their cap space every year.
Asking someone to take a $2M pay cut when you have $23M in unused cap space and no plan on how to use the $2M is cheap.
Quote:And the offer to Whitworth was about years not total salary. So cap space had nothing to do with that.
It was about both because years, salary, guarantees, and cap hits are all linked.
Cap space was irrelevant? Gimme a f’n break.
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