PFF pass block comparison - Bengals OL vs Bucs OL

[*ochocincos*]

I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

[Au165]

(04-16-2021, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

There is a myth that elite pass blocking is needed to protect burrow but in reality, you need average blocking and guys who can get open in an average to above-average time frame. Brady does nothing in terms of making guys miss as well, so Burrow even coming off an injury can make up for a bit of it. The one thing Brady does do well is knowing when he has nothing and dirts the ball to prevent a hit. Somewhere between where Burrow was last year and Brady falling into the fettle position when the pressure gets there is where Burrow needs to be.

...I still like a day 2 double up on the O line.

[XenoMorph]

(04-16-2021, 12:36 PM)Au165 Wrote: There is a myth that elite pass blocking is needed to protect burrow but in reality, you need average blocking and guys who can get open in an average to above-average time frame. Brady does nothing in terms of making guys miss as well, so Burrow even coming off an injury can make up for a bit of it. The one thing Brady does do well is knowing when he has nothing and dirts the ball to prevent a hit. Somewhere between where Burrow was last year and Brady falling into the fettle position when the pressure gets there is where Burrow needs to be.

...I still like a day 2 double up on the O line.

just need smarter coaching and play calling

[bengals1969]

(04-16-2021, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

Few have played with Brady’s QB IQ. He can near instantly analyze where the pressure comes from and who’s going to be open and then get the ball down field.

Comparing lines without taking into account the QB is deceptive.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 12:49 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: Few have played with Brady’s QB IQ. He can near instantly analyze where the pressure comes from and who’s going to be open and then get the ball down field.

Comparing lines without taking into account the QB is deceptive.

Yes, but the expectation is the Bengals drafted a very cerebral QB who can operate very similar to Brady.
The expectation is he should be able to succeed with "just" a solid OL.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 12:46 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: just need smarter coaching and play calling

I didn't want to factor that part in because it's hard to measure, but it does seem that Arians and Leftwich operate a (much) better offense than Taylor does.

Honestly, I know people talk a lot about Joe Brady as a potential HC replacement for Taylor, but Leftwich needs to be considered too if Taylor doesn't rise up to expectations this year.

[Joelist]

The only thing I would quibble with is the “Spain bad” thing - it is stuff like this that causes doubt as to the usefulness of PFF.

We have stats posted here in at least three threads all showing the same thing - Spain did good for us and when we finally had him and XSF at the guard spots a lot of the nonsense going on with the blocking stopped. The biggest issues on the line were MJ and Redmond. Even Hart looked better when we had XSF-Spain manning the Guard spots.

[fredtoast]

(04-16-2021, 01:48 PM)Joelist Wrote: The only thing I would quibble with is the “Spain bad” thing - it is stuff like this that causes doubt as to the usefulness of PFF.

We have stats posted here in at least three threads all showing the same thing - Spain did good for us and when we finally had him and XSF at the guard spots a lot of the nonsense going on with the blocking stopped. The biggest issues on the line were MJ and Redmond. Even Hart looked better when we had XSF-Spain manning the Guard spots.

You know who's opinion I value more than yours or PFF's?  Professional scouts for NFL teams.

Every team saw the film on Spain from last year, yet we were able to sign him for basically league minimum ($1.1 million).  If he was any good at all he would have gotten a lot more than that.

The Bills had given him a decent contract (3 year $15 million), but they cut him.  He must have played well at some point to get that deal, but he also must look like shit now to professional NFL scouts.

No way in hell am I counting on a vet we signed for league minimum to be very good for us.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 01:48 PM)Joelist Wrote: The only thing I would quibble with is the “Spain bad” thing - it is stuff like this that causes doubt as to the usefulness of PFF.

We have stats posted here in at least three threads all showing the same thing - Spain did good for us and when we finally had him and XSF at the guard spots a lot of the nonsense going on with the blocking stopped. The biggest issues on the line were MJ and Redmond. Even Hart looked better when we had XSF-Spain manning the Guard spots.

Spain's 44.8 pass blocking rating does include his 4 games as a Bill.
I don't have the level of access to see game-by-game.

[DYT_Bengal]

It’s crazy how much better our offense was when we kept Sample back to pass block.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 02:12 PM)willieFANderson Wrote: It’s crazy how much better our offense was when we kept Sample back to pass block.

Sample was a solid pass blocker - 72.6 according to PFF. Also a 72.1 run blocker. His receiving score was only 52.8 though.
Uzomah's pass blocking score was 75.3.

[fredtoast]

(04-16-2021, 02:12 PM)willieFANderson Wrote: It’s crazy how much better our offense was when we kept Sample back to pass block.

I did not notice this at all.

Got a link to anything to back this up?

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-16-2021, 02:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Spain's 44.8 pass blocking rating does include his 4 games as a Bill.
I don't have the level of access to see game-by-game.

60.6 overall with the Bills, 51.7 pass block. 2 hits/sacks on 110 passblock snaps for a hit % of .018
55.6 overall with the Bengals, 43.8 pass block. 5 hits/sacks on 327 passblock snaps for a hit % of .015

His grades are consistent and pretty much match what he produced. On an earlier thread, i did some numbers and you want the hit percentage to be around .015 for an average player. A lower number is better. 

The difference in passblock grade came down to only having 2 hurries with the Bills and 10 with the Bengals, in only 3x the games with Cincy. 

[Au165]

(04-16-2021, 01:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You know who's opinion I value more than yours or PFF's?  Professional scouts for NFL teams.

Every team saw the film on Spain from last year, yet we were able to sign him or basically league minimum ($1.1 million).  If he was any good at all he would have gotten a lot more than that.

The Bills had given him a decent contract (3 year $15 million), but they cut him.  He must have played well at some point to get that deal, but he also must look like shit now to professional NFL scouts.

No way in hell am I counting on a vet we signed for league minimum to be very good for us.

Not saying this will be the case, but Shaq Barrett got a 1-year deal in Tampa for 4 million when no one wanted to sign him in 2019 and he led the league in sacks.  Barrett wasn't quite league minimum but he was the 16th highest free agent Edge (Behind a lot of guys no one has heard of) in 2019, so the scouts missed pretty badly there. Success comes down to a lot of things, talent, desire, scheme, and opportunity all play a role. Will Spain be the best guard in the NFL? No, probably not. Can he be decent even though no one as far as we know offered him any more than we did? Sure.

That said, yea we should bring competition in for him in the draft but I am not opposed to letting him compete for a singular spot. He played 3 different positions last year which is not easy to do and I am sure that didn't help his success.

[Murdock2420]

(04-16-2021, 02:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not saying this will be the case, but Shaq Barrett got a 1-year deal in Tampa for 4 million when no one wanted to sign him in 2019 and he led the league in sacks.  Barrett wasn't quite league minimum but he was the 16th highest free agent Edge (Behind a lot of guys no one has heard of) in 2019, so the scouts missed pretty badly there. Success comes down to a lot of things, talent, desire, scheme, and opportunity all play a role. Will Spain be the best guard in the NFL? No, probably not. Can he be decent even though no one as far as we know offered him any more than we did? Sure.

Barrett also was injured his last year in Denver and they only started him in 15 games over 5 seasons. He was completely misused there.

Signed a one year deal with Tampa, starts all 16 games, is used correctly and goes off on his sack total. Gets the franchise tag, plays well under it and now has a 4 year extension worth 72 million.

This is a terrible comparison.

Spain came in, and after being here he didn't get a long term extension, he was the back-up plan to the back-up plan. Thuney they missed, Zeitler they missed, then there was a long pause and finally they gave him a 1 year extension.

As Fred said if they were sold he was the answer, he would have gotten more then 1 year and they wouldn't have waited so long.

[PDub80]

(04-16-2021, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

This is awesome information and EXACLTY my feelings toward the changes to the line. There is talent enough there to do well with Joey B & this offense and the way it works. Does the line need an infusion of talent? OF COURSE! Is it a total dumpster fire? Not any more. 2 players were GROSSLY responsible for the line being a disaster. 1 of them is gone and the other will be the 4th guy, OR 5th guy, OR cut.

I am more interested in the line getting consistency and gelling together than I am just going O-line crazy. Outside of the first round, the Bengals can find 1 starter easily, and probably even 2 depending on how the draft false. The OL talent in this draft presents an AWESOME VALUE all through the draft.

[Au165]

(04-16-2021, 02:39 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Barrett also was injured his last year in Denver and they only started him in 15 games over 5 seasons. He was completely misused there.

Signed a one year deal with Tampa, starts all 16 games, is used correctly and goes off on his sack total. Gets the franchise tag, plays well under it and now has a 4 year extension worth 72 million.

This is a terrible comparison.

Spain came in, and after being here he didn't get a long term extension, he was the back-up plan to the back-up plan. Thuney the missed, Zeitler they missed, then there was a long pause and finally they gave him a 1 year extension.

As Fred said if they were sold he was the answer, he would have gotten more then 1 year and they wouldn't have waited so long.

If you are an analytics guy, not sure if you are, Barrett was REALLY good in limited snaps in Denver. You mention starts, but he appeared in almost every game in 4 out of the 5 years there as an important rotational player. He played 45%/36%/58%/26% (Injured) of defensive snaps while in Denver and was ultra-productive on a disruption per snap basis. 

My point is pretty simple, guys get passed over. There will be guys who are on the market right now in FA, that no one wants, who will end up on a roster and be productive starters next year. As I said, Spain playing multiple positions because we had no one else and moved him to plug holes didn't bode well for his success. We will see how it goes but I think he can be a serviceable player here.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 02:32 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 60.6 overall with the Bills, 51.7 pass block. 2 hits/sacks on 110 passblock snaps for a hit % of .018
55.6 overall with the Bengals, 43.8 pass block. 5 hits/sacks on 327 passblock snaps for a hit % of .015

His grades are consistent and pretty much match what he produced. On an earlier thread, i did some numbers and you want the hit percentage to be around .015 for an average player. A lower number is better. 

The difference in passblock grade came down to only having 2 hurries with the Bills and 10 with the Bengals, in only 3x the games with Cincy. 

Thanks.

I do think Spain will be better than he was in 2020, based on his previous seasons in Buffalo and Tennessee.

2019 pass blocking grade (633 PB snaps) - 70.4
2018 pass blocking grade (466 PB snaps) - 75.6
2017 pass blocking grade (496 PB snaps) - 74.0
2016 pass blocking grade (463 PB snaps) - 77.6

But the Bengals should draft a couple OL regardless of whether we have faith in Spain, XSF, Hopkins, Reiff, and Williams, as every player behind them on the depth chart currently is a bad pass blocker.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 02:50 PM)Au165 Wrote: If you are an analytics guy, not sure if you are, Barrett was REALLY good in limited snaps in Denver. You mention starts, but he appeared in almost every game in 4 out of the 5 years there as an important rotational player. He played 45%/36%/58%/26% (Injured) of defensive snaps while in Denver and was ultra-productive on a disruption per snap basis. 

My point is pretty simple, guys get passed over. There will be guys who are on the market right now in FA, that no one wants, who will end up on a roster and be productive starters next year. As I said, Spain playing multiple positions because we had no one else and moved him to plug holes didn't bode well for his success. We will see how it goes but I think he can be a serviceable player here.

Starts are mostly meaningless. It just means you took the first snap of the game.
As long as you took a majority of snaps, that's more important.

[Au165]

(04-16-2021, 02:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Starts are mostly meaningless. It just means you took the first snap of the game.
As long as you took a majority of snaps, that's more important.

He was always a rotational player, mainly because they had Chubb and Vonn, but he always showed serious pass-rushing talent while there.