PFF pass block comparison - Bengals OL vs Bucs OL

[Shake n Blake]

(04-16-2021, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

I feel no differently looking at this. For one, pass blocking is only half the issue. How did these guys grade out in run blocking compared to Tampa? Secondly, the left side of TB's line was way better than ours at pass blocking. Am I supposed to want a bad line because TB won a SB with pretty bad pass blocking on the right side?

In the end, this is no different than if I brought up New England winning titles with a pretty poor group of WRs.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-16-2021, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I was interested in seeing how the current projected Bengals OL starters compared to TB's OL starters last year when it came to pass blocking, as TB won the Super Bowl and were a heavy passing offense.

2020 TB starting OL pass blocking grades:
Tristan Wirfs - 81.0 (very good)
Ali Marpet - 75.5 (good)
Donovan Smith - 69.6 (solid)
Alex Cappa - 68.8 (solid)
Ryan Jensen - 47.7 (bad)

2021 Bengals OL - pass blocking grades from 2020:
Jonah Williams - 75.8 (good)
Trey Hopkins - 64.3 (solid)
Riley Reiff - 74.9 (good)
Xavier Su'a-Filo - 74.8 (good, but only 155 pass block snaps)
Quinton Spain - 44.8 (bad, but came in midway through season)

TB had one really good pass blocker (Wirfs), one good blocker (Marpet), two solid blockers (Smith and Cappa), and one bad one (Jensen).
If the Bengals start with the OL above, they have three good blockers (Williams, Reiff, XSF), one solid blocker (Hopkins), and one bad one (Spain).

If the Bengals don't want to take the gamble on Spain, the biggest upgrade to keep Burrow upright looks to be at OG.
Depth at OT and C also can help mitigate risk in case games are missed by Williams, Reiff, and/or Hopkins, as their backups are not good pass blockers at all (Price, Adeniji, Johnson).

With that said, This offense might actually be able to keep Burrow upright this year, especially if the main starters can remain mostly healthy. 1 draft pick to be a starter and 1-2 more for backup roles would also help.

One additional component that I don't believe many have mentioned is how often the opposition would be up by quite a bit and "release the hounds".  If the Bengals were more balanced on offense and the opposition had to actually respect the potential of a running game, it makes the job of the offensive line that much better.  

Of course, Burrow and the weapons (once they get Chase) will be the strength of the offense and you play to your strengths, but there needs to be a better balance.  

[PDub80]

(04-17-2021, 12:02 AM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: Chargers didn't cut Drew Brees. They drafted Eli, traded Eli for Phillip Rivers and then Brees woke up, forcing Rivers to sit for two seasons as the Chargers designated Brees as a Franchise player after his breakout 2004 season. They offered him a 5 year contract after 2005 but he got a better offer from New Orleans.

You're arguing semantics just for the sake of it.

The Chargers were wanting to replace Brees as a starter and then offered him what was basically a $2,000,000 deal when his contract was up.They were done w him, especially after his injury. The deal they offered Brees was a backup deal for $2,000,000 with a ton of performance incentives that he wasn't going to hit because Rivers was going to be starting. They didn't technically cut him, sure, but they certainly showed him the door and nudged him through it.

My point stays the same, teams move on from players all the time for whatever reasons. That doesn't mean they are automatically right just because they are an NFL team with NFL scouts.

[samhain]

(04-16-2021, 07:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Problem is Jonah has missed 26 games over the last 2 years. XSF has missed 23 games over the last 3 years.

As things currently stand, you're probably going to get an (un)healthy amount of backups playing. 

With an OL of Williams/Spain/Hopkins/XSF/Reiff, they have played 16 games in a season a grand total of 3 seasons out of a possible 14 since the start of 2018. (Spain in '19, Hopkins in '18 and '19.) The only reliably healthy one of that group (Hopkins) is recovering from a Week 17 knee injury.

Yeah, this is a huge factor.  XSF was the intended starter in 2020, and missed a ton of time.  This put them right back into the practice of starting Redmond.  Redmond is a tough player and works hard, but unfortunately he's just not good.  They've had to press him into action over the last 4 seasons due to lack of depth and talent when injuries hit, and it takes a toll.  XSF isn't going to suddenly turn into Quentin Nelson, but he's a solid enough player that the drop-off to Redmond is going to be a costly one, and it surely was.  Spain may not be great, but I feel okay about him being here if he's in the backup role Redmond occupied last year.

Jordan is a head-scratcher.  I still think he was a victim of circumstance.  He never should have been starting games his rookie year.  It'seasy to blame the staff for throwing him to the wolves, but they had little choice when Boling left, Glenn got "hurt", and Jonah never got out of the gate.  they needed bodies so badly that Andre Smith and John freaking Jerry were in line to start.  You're using duct tape and super glue at that point, and expecting that to work out when you're position coach is one of the worst in the league is unrealistic.  I just hope Jordan's career isn't shot due to dammaged confidence.  He's been through some rough times here, and a lot of players would be mentally spent after it.  He needs a year to be groomed and build strength before we can toss him on the scrap heap IMO.  Either way, I don't want to see him on the field in 2021.

Jonah's a tough one, too.  He looks the part of a blindside protector.  They have to get something out of him, and unlike others, I'm totally fine with moving him inside if that's what it takes.  He's their best OL right now, and he has to stay out there.  

As much as I bash them over lack of talent up front, neither line in the Taylor era was anything like the one they intended to roll out in the offseason.  It would be nice to see players remain healthy and build some cohesion over a few games.  

[fredtoast]

(04-16-2021, 08:14 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Kind of having it both ways when it suits you, right?

Pro scouts recommended drafting him. Pro scouts recommended signing him. Pro scouts cut him. Bengals sign him and they are dumbasses?

Imagine if that line of thinking was put on Drew Breese? 

- Chargers cut him, they must be super smart and do everything right.

- Saints sign him, they are crazy. He is horrible. See, the Chargers guys said so.

This circular logic is in direct conflict with itself.

There is no circular logic, and there is no conflict.

NFL scouts are not always correct, but it more likely for one team to be wrong (overpay) than for 31 teams to be wrong,

Also educate yourself on what the Chargers did with Brees.  Offering a guy who was a free agent a $50 million contract is just a LITTLE different from "cutting him".

[*ochocincos*]

(04-17-2021, 12:55 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I feel no differently looking at this. For one, pass blocking is only half the issue. How did these guys grade out in run blocking compared to Tampa? Secondly, the left side of TB's line was way better than ours at pass blocking. Am I supposed to want a bad line because TB won a SB with pretty bad pass blocking on the right side?

In the end, this is no different than if I brought up New England winning titles with a pretty poor group of WRs.

Tampa Bay was 28th in the league in rushing yards, 29th in attempts.
The Bengals ran more and got more yardage than TB. 17th in attempts, 24th in yardage.
I didn't include the run blocking grades because both offenses were more focused around the passing game.

But since you asked about the run blocking grades, here they are.

TB:
Wirfs - 77.8
Marpet - 80.7
Jensen - 73.2
Smith - 72.5
Cappa - 62.7

CIN:
Williams - 53.4
Hopkins - 62.1
Reiff - 60.8
XSF - 52.1
Spain - 62.4

There is a hope that Pollack will help boost the run game, but he may not be able to turn water into wine.
If this offense wants to be more balanced or even run-heavy, they probably have to revamp the OL completely, as none of the current projected starters are really that good at run blocking.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-16-2021, 10:38 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Would anyone be interested in a Leftwich interview were we to not have Zac around next offseason. I loved that guy in college and NFL and he seems to be a solid offensive coach.

If Taylor doesn't live up to expectations this year, I'd probably be rushing to interview these 5 guys:
Joe Brady, OC CAR
Byron Leftwich, OC TB
Eric Bieniemy, OC KC
Matt Eberflus, DC IND
Brian Daboll, OC BUF

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-16-2021, 08:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right, professional scouts for NFL teams are all dumbasses.

If they think like you? Yeah.

Nate Livings is great according to you cause he got paid by the Cowboys. He got paid big dough bro, he good.

Mathis sucks, he was behind Livings on the depth chart. Goes to the Eagles for peanuts makes All Pro.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(04-17-2021, 12:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If Taylor doesn't live up to expectations this year, I'd probably be rushing to interview these 5 guys:
Joe Brady, OC CAR
Byron Leftwich, OC TB
Eric Bieniemy, OC KC
Matt Eberflus, DC IND
Brian Daboll, OC BUF

I’m curious is Byron calls any plays for them otherwise it’s a similar situation to Bieniemy. I wouldn’t hate looking at him, but I heard he apparently interviews horribly and the fact that Andy Reid calls all the plays makes him less interesting to me.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-17-2021, 09:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You're arguing semantics just for the sake of it.

The Chargers were wanting to replace Brees as a starter and then offered him what was basically a $2,000,000 deal when his contract was up.They were done w him, especially after his injury. The deal they offered Brees was a backup deal for $2,000,000 with a ton of performance incentives that he wasn't going to hit because Rivers was going to be starting. They didn't technically cut him, sure, but they certainly showed him the door and nudged him through it.

My point stays the same, teams move on from players all the time for whatever reasons. That doesn't mean they are automatically right just because they are an NFL team with NFL scouts.

It's amazing the hoops people will jump through just to appear to be correct on a ***** message board.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-17-2021, 12:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Tampa Bay was 28th in the league in rushing yards, 29th in attempts.
The Bengals ran more and got more yardage than TB. 17th in attempts, 24th in yardage.
I didn't include the run blocking grades because both offenses were more focused around the passing game.

But since you asked about the run blocking grades, here they are.

TB:
Wirfs - 77.8
Marpet - 80.7
Jensen - 73.2
Smith - 72.5
Cappa - 62.7

CIN:
Williams - 53.4
Hopkins - 62.1
Reiff - 60.8
XSF - 52.1
Spain - 62.4

There is a hope that Pollack will help boost the run game, but he may not be able to turn water into wine.
If this offense wants to be more balanced or even run-heavy, they probably have to revamp the OL completely, as none of the current projected starters are really that good at run blocking.

Appreciate the honesty. I feel people focus too much on pass blocking or just keeping Burrow healthy, and not enough on the run game benefits of a better line. We paid Mixon a ton of money. If we don't also invest in our line, that just won't make sense to me. A good line helps everything.

[PDub80]

(04-17-2021, 03:54 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: It's amazing the hoops people will jump through just to appear to be correct on a ***** message board.

It's amazing that you can't find context, even when I spoon feed it to you.

Want another example? Payton Manning was cut by the Colts. Went to Denver and won a Superbowl. There, is that such a WILDLY different concept? NO.

Stop being a bitchy contrarian just for the sake of it.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-17-2021, 04:50 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Appreciate the honesty. I feel people focus too much on pass blocking or just keeping Burrow healthy, and not enough on the run game benefits of a better line. We paid Mixon a ton of money. If we don't also invest in our line, that just won't make sense to me. A good line helps everything.

I don't think the running game will ever get good enough to justify paying a RB $12 mill a year, at least not with this coaching staff.

I think many of us said last year that the Bengals would have been better off using the money they spent on tagging Green and extending Mixon instead on an OL or two.

Those who said that were right about Green, and could end up being right about Mixon. I don't blame Mixon, but you don't give that much money to a RB and not prioritize the running game.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-17-2021, 04:51 PM)PDub80 Wrote: It's amazing that you can't find context, even when I spoon feed it to you.

Want another example? Payton Manning was cut by the Colts. Went to Denver and won a Superbowl. There, is that such a WILDLY different concept? NO.

Stop being a bitchy contrarian just for the sake of it.

Wah.

The Chargers never cut, waived or released Brees. They Franchised him and then offered him another contract the following year because they realized that they acted too soon when trying to replace him. Your version of "cut" is pretty weak. Had you said, "moved on from", that might have been believable but by saying they cut him, you were flat out wrong. You mis-worded a statement. It's not that hard to admit.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-17-2021, 06:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't think the running game will ever get good enough to justify paying a RB $12 mill a year, at least not with this coaching staff.

I think many of us said last year that the Bengals would have been better off using the money they spent on tagging Green and extending Mixon instead on an OL or two.

Those who said that were right about Green, and could end up being right about Mixon. I don't blame Mixon, but you don't give that much money to a RB and not prioritize the running game.

Pollack also being the run game coordinator is going to be interesting. I fully expect Taylor to still have us throwing it a ton, but hopefully not as much as last year.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-17-2021, 06:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't think the running game will ever get good enough to justify paying a RB $12 mill a year, at least not with this coaching staff.

I think many of us said last year that the Bengals would have been better off using the money they spent on tagging Green and extending Mixon instead on an OL or two.

Those who said that were right about Green, and could end up being right about Mixon. I don't blame Mixon, but you don't give that much money to a RB and not prioritize the running game.

Personally, I've never been big on paying big $ to skill position players. I'd rather focus on finding an elite QB (I think we have one) and building the trenches. I know people get tired of hearing that, but it seems - historically - that the best teams usually have an elite QB and a good o-line. When you have those, the rest just seems to fall in place.

Suddenly that 4th round RB you drafted is rushing for 1k yards on 5 yards/tote...due to the solid blocking and the good QB making teams pay for cheating up. Suddenly you can shift good-not-elite WR's in and out without having to throw a ton of money at anybody. You can invest more in your defense.

But, as it stands, we have paid Mixon. That signals a commitment to the run, so we may as well not have our corvette driving on dirt roads.

[Burma]

(04-17-2021, 10:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: But, as it stands, we have paid Mixon. That signals a commitment to the run, so we may as well not have our corvette driving on dirt roads.

That has hardly been touched on in the debate for 5. Mixon is making $48 mill, that is a solid investment. Is Mixon the focus of the offense or is Burrow slinging it the focus?  It used to be that you leaned on the run to help a young QB.  Has the league changed so much that this line of thinking is obsolete? I really don't know.  I am not able now to look up the RBs for successful rookie QBs right now.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-17-2021, 11:30 PM)Burma Wrote: That has hardly been touched on in the debate for 5. Mixon is making $48 mill, that is a solid investment. Is Mixon the focus of the offense or is Burrow slinging it the focus?  It used to be that you leaned on the run to help a young QB.  Has the league changed so much that this line of thinking is obsolete? I really don't know.  I am not able now to look up the RBs for successful rookie QBs right now.

Hardly anyone talks about solid o-line helping the run game just as much as the pass game, either. People have claimed the death of running in the NFL for a long time, but I still think it's crucial.

Teams like Pittsburgh and Tampa got away with weak run games last year, so people might point to that as evidence that the league is trending that way, but Pittsburgh wound up falling apart last year. Tampa has Tom, which is apparently all you need.

That said, other dominant teams like the Packers, Saints, Ravens, Browns and Titans were all top 8 in rushing. So I'd say it's still very important to at least have balance with your offense. Unless you have Tom Brady.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Speaking of OL grades...

It’s interesting to me that despite the Dolphins having an even worse OL than us (and a very injury prone QB) that there is no narrative from the national media about “kicking them out of the league” if they take a playmaker at #6.

[WVUHomer]

(04-24-2021, 06:38 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Speaking of OL grades...

It’s interesting to me that despite the Dolphins having an even worse OL than us (and a very injury prone QB) that there is no narrative from the national media about “kicking them out of the league” if they take a playmaker at #6.

Yea, but the fact that 3/5 on their OL was a rookie last year needed to be accounted in that argument. Literally Slater would be a better pick for MIA than Sewell. WR room of Fuller, Parker and ??

Add to the fact that Tua didn't look good last year, I'd actually believe they are considering another restart.