Question for Drafting Chase Supporters

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-18-2021, 01:18 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Nothing silly about it.

On one hand you have a list of Bengals legends and the reporter who is closest to the franchise.

On the other you have Tony Pike.

You have to admit that the list is a bit disproportionate in favor of Sewell. The only people I've seen listed for Chase is Pike and Mora.

James Rapien is better at covering this team than Geoff Hobson, imo. And he did very well arguing for Chase in the first civil war video. I highly respect Matt Minich (especially when it comes to X’s & O’s and breaking down tape). Joe Goodberry is also a name most Bengals fans are familiar with.

But I’ll give you that the guys arguing for Sewell are the bigger names. Doesn’t necessarily mean they’ve actually spent any time researching these prospects though. That’s where I think there’s value in the opinions of the PFF guys, the film junkies, etc. For example, on this board the two main guys I look to on draft prospects, tape, etc are Au165 and Synric. And I know from even back when I first started getting hyped about Sewell, Au165 was never as big on him as most. Pretty sure Synric wants Pitts, so it was interesting to me that neither of them were banging the drum for Sewell.

I do think a lot of this comes down to OL vs Chase. Whereas the one side just wants OL with our first pick (whether it’s Sewell or Slater), compared to those of us that just want Chase because we feel he’s the BPA (him or Pitts). I would not want Smith or Waddle at 5 for example just because I really want a WR. So for me it’s more the player than the position.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-18-2021, 01:24 AM)Bengalholic Wrote: I would love for Kyle 'stiff arm' Pitts to get past 4 somehow and the Bengals take him. Then all half dozen of the fans on the board rooting for him to be the pick (I'm one) can celebrate.

Everyone should be ecstatic if that happens. Honestly, I want Pitts every bit as much as I do Chase, but once it came out that we weren’t drafting him I had to let it go.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-18-2021, 01:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Well to be fair, this dude was the first to post his opinon on a player other than Chase...

It’s funny to me you quoted that post, as you were one of the people I was talking about that was shitting on the PAC-12 and Sewell’s competition when I first started talking about him.

[Bengalholic]

(04-18-2021, 01:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Everyone should be ecstatic if that happens. Honestly, I want Pitts every bit as much as I do Chase, but once it came out that we weren’t drafting him I had to let it go.

Yeah, I would love Pitts, but I'm cool with Sewell or Chase as well. Like I've said before, the Bengals are in a great position. 

FWIW, Tyler Dragon has also come out and said Chase is who they're targeting (and he is a Sewell guy):

“From what I’m hearing from within the organization and even members around the organization is they are targeting Ja’Marr Chase, the LSU wide receiver, Joe Burrow’s former teammate. You know, they like his ability on the outside. And the Bengals have a need at wide receiver with the departure of A.J. Green, who is now with the Arizona Cardinals. Zac Taylor likes to play 11 personnel, that is three wide receivers, one running back, and a tight end. And so, with that third wide receiver, you have a hole right now there on the outside.”

He also had this to say last week:

"The Bengals watched every snap Joe Burrow had at LSU. While watching film they also witnessed how explosive LSU's offense was with players like Thaddeus Moss and Ja'Marr Chase. It appears the team is trying to recreate that in Cincinnati."

[*bfine32*]

(04-18-2021, 01:52 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s funny to me you quoted that post, as you were one of the people I was talking about that was shitting on the PAC-12 and Sewell’s competition when I first started talking about him.

Sure I did; but I did it in threads about Sewell. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-18-2021, 02:04 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure I did; but I did it in threads about Sewell. 

I mean, I just went back and looked through the thread, and almost every single post mentioned Sewell in one way or another. I don’t really think my bringing up Chase having faced better competition was unfair in any way. I did exactly what the OP asked, and that was give my reasons for why we should draft Chase.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-15-2021, 10:53 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Jamarr Chase dominated his 1 on 1 matchups in that
Season.with Joe Burrow. He was making future NFL talents
At CB look silly.
Penei dominated his matchups too. But his level of
Competition that he faced was below that of Chases.

(04-18-2021, 02:04 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure I did; but I did it in threads about Sewell. 

Also, your “gotcha” wasn’t even accurate. The post I responded to clearly brought up Sewell’s competition before I did.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-17-2021, 03:08 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Ocho posted Hopkins PFF grades at G a while back and I was surprised they were much better than I remembered.

Yes, surprises me as I saw Hop sucking at Guard whenever I watched him. 

Have to say I don't put much stock in PFF and have to say it adamantly and a lot.

Hop is a good pass protecting Center.

Still would be more than fine with Chase as the pick, same with Sewell.

Pitts is still my fave!

Just as long as the OL is taken care of in the end, lots of picks to do so...

[Essex Johnson]

To think we could still start the season with 4 players starting from.last years line and many will be so excited that we have Chase..lol..

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-22-2021, 12:45 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: To think we could still start the season with 4 players starting from.last years line and many will be so excited that we have Chase..lol..

WTF? Who has said that?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-22-2021, 01:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: WTF? Who has said that?

Absolutely no one. It’s doom and gloom worst case scenario stuff to paint taking a Chase or Pitts in a negative light.

There’s only 3 guys that were day one starters last year that should be in the mix this upcoming season; Jonah, Hopkins, XSF. That’s it. I think it’s a little unfair to lump Spain in. Yes, he was technically a starter last season, but the guy joined the team mid season and had Jim Turner to get him acclimated on the fly....

Duke Tobin has come right out and said there will be additions to the OL in a recent interview. And I seriously doubt he’s talking about backup depth picks like Adeniji in the 6th round. It’s almost a guarantee they’ll have used at least one pick on OL by the end of day 2. That should be a new RG, and Reiff at RT. So no, we’re not going to have “4 of the same starting OL.” It should be 3 at most, with one of them being Spain who is probably going to get a shot with a full offseason and a new coach.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-22-2021, 01:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: WTF? Who has said that?

It's a concern that some have that the starting OL could be Williams-Spain-Hopkins-XSF-Reiff.
It's possible, but if Sewell is the only person you could start, you don't belong in the draft room, TBH.
A Rd 2 or even Rd 3 guy should be able to start on this OL and improve it.

Also, even if the starting OL is Williams-Spain-Hopkins-XSF-Reiff, that should a pretty good pass blocking OL.
Spain had been a very good pass blocker both at TN and BUF until 2020.
XSF has been a good pass blocker the past few years.
Hopkins has always been a good pass blocker.
Jonah was a solid pass blocker last year.
Reiff is a good pass blocker.

Realistically, the Bengals get a guy in Rd 1 or 2 who plays either LG or RG as a rookie, while Spain and XSF battle it out for the other OG spot.
Optimistically, the Bengals get two OL upgrades such that two of Hopkins, Spain, and XSF won't be starting.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-22-2021, 01:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: WTF? Who has said that?

My point is, I dont think many of us after Burrow got hurt would be happy that we signed only 1 FA Oline and passed on drafting top lineman in the draft and rolled with a 2nd rounder that we hope starts. This is what we are about to possibly do if we draft Chase....

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-22-2021, 07:13 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Absolutely no one. It’s doom and gloom worst case scenario stuff to paint taking a Chase or Pitts in a negative light.

There’s only 3 guys that were day one starters last year that should be in the mix this upcoming season; Jonah, Hopkins, XSF. That’s it. I think it’s a little unfair to lump Spain in. Yes, he was technically a starter last season, but the guy joined the team mid season and had Jim Turner to get him acclimated on the fly....

Duke Tobin has come right out and said there will be additions to the OL in a recent interview. And I seriously doubt he’s talking about backup depth picks like Adeniji in the 6th round. It’s almost a guarantee they’ll have used at least one pick on OL by the end of day 2. That should be a new RG, and Reiff at RT. So no, we’re not going to have “4 of the same starting OL.” It should be 3 at most, with one of them being Spain who is probably going to get a shot with a full offseason and a new coach.

Well said as usual Nicomo. Great post, we will be upgraded and if the better players are starting I don't care who the hell their name
was last season. Just want to be better in every facet this season. This can be done and pick Chase. Don't understand why some like 
Essex are saying it cannot. I like Sewell a lot but from what Burrow just said he made it pretty damn clear along with Tobin's remarks
that they all love Ja'Marr Chase and Tobin believes this is a deep OL class, which it is.

People around here need to stop crying if the pick is Chase. I know if this was all smoke and mirrors and we got Sewell or Pitts or 
even Slater in a trade back I sure wouldn't be crying. I would be ecstatic either way.

Now a Defense pick specifically Surtain would irk me a bit.

[CanadianBengal]

My preference is o-line (Sewell or trade back and get Slater) but I definitely won't be upset if we take Chase -- would be okay with Pitts. Not sure there is a "wrong" choice out of those three. I would not be okay if they don't get a good o-linemen in round two if they take a pass catcher in round one

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-15-2021, 10:33 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: I love Chase --would love him on the Bengals but when I think about our OLine I simply cannot justify passing on an elite offensive lineman. So if you are committed to drafting Chase --please explain how you think the OLine will give Burrows enough time to use the weapons he will have.

Here is my assessment of the line --please share yours

Williams is average but getting better and a long term piece.Reif is solid but signed for one year.

Hopkins is below average and coming back from an injury.

Spain, XSF are back ups. XSF was a back-up for Dallas, he signed for a back-up salary. Spain was cut by Buffalo during the year when they had title hopes. He just resigned for a back up salary. Which means the Bengals, the other teams and the player all accept that at least for this year --they look like a back up. If they or other teams thought they were starters --they wouldn't have signed for back-up salary

Pollack is better than Turner --but we had Pollack before and the line was not great. So why do we believe he can turn poor players into sound players?

I think because we watched Turner coach Redmond, Hart and Jordan --we overvalue Pollack, Spain and XSF.

Sewell or Slater become our best OLineman. They guarantee we have three strong OLineman. Waiting to round two is just to great a risk for me.

Love to hear your argument

You focused your analysis on the offensive line, and rightfully so.  It was a huge weakness last year.  But they have already added Spain to compete with XSF at BOTH of their natural position, LG.  I feel very good about Jonah in year 2 of his playing career in the NFL.  Hopkins is a solid center and Price a capable backup.  At RT, they signed a solid veteran in Reilly Reiff.  That leaves RG.  They will surely draft at least 2 linemen that could compete for that position.  One will be a potential tackle to start off at RG, and the other a natural G.  That addresses a lot of the concerns and would start 2021 leaps and bounds better than 2020.

Now, look at what the offense did against pitt and Baltimore.  Nothing.  They were able to shut down Boyd and Higgins.  Those bigger, longer-striding WR that don't have the phone booth quicks of a player like Chase were blanketed.  I don't think anyone has ever been able to blanket Chase...even in college where you are allowed contact beyond 5 yards.  He has the amazing short shuttle, the deep speed, and the ball-tracking skills to be a dominant WR in the league.  He is an alpha.  A leader.  He has set NATIONAL RECORDS at both the HS and college level.  If you try to press him, he will bench-press your ass in to the ground.  He is a WR with the build of a SS.  Fast, quick in short areas, great at contested catches, and unparalleled in deep ball tracking.  All things that the Bengals showed they needed against their division foes.  

Having Chase, Boyd, and Higgins on the field together opens up the running game by forcing safeties to play off the LOS.  It also opens up the underneath for RBs and TEs as receivers.  The bottom line:  THEY WILL SCORE MORE POINTS.  I believe they will score a shit-ton more points.  We have a coach that lives in 11 personnel more than any coach in the league.  Having three real WR threats will fit his offense perfectly.  Think of the Colts when they had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, and Dallas Clark.  All first round picks.  They attacked the 3rd or 4th best cover option of the defense with elite talent.  Their offense was incredible.  They had a smart QB that could read defenses and attack them accordingly.  

The bottom line:  I see a much greater drop off in talent from Chase to the likes of Dyami Brown or others that may be there in Rd 2, than I do with Sewell compared to some of the players that could be long-term solutions at RT for the Bengals.  

FWIW, I won't be upset if they draft Sewell, but I would prefer Chase for the reasons I have outlined above.  You have to beat your division foes to win your division.  I think Chase helps them to that more than any player in the draft.  

[AtomicBlaze]

(04-23-2021, 11:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You focused your analysis on the offensive line, and rightfully so.  It was a huge weakness last year.  But they have already added Spain to compete with XSF at BOTH of their natural position, LG.  I feel very good about Jonah in year 2 of his playing career in the NFL.  Hopkins is a solid center and Price a capable backup.  At RT, they signed a solid veteran in Reilly Reiff.  That leaves RG.  They will surely draft at least 2 linemen that could compete for that position.  One will be a potential tackle to start off at RG, and the other a natural G.  That addresses a lot of the concerns and would start 2021 leaps and bounds better than 2020.

Now, look at what the offense did against pitt and Baltimore.  Nothing.  They were able to shut down Boyd and Higgins.  Those bigger, longer-striding WR that don't have the phone booth quicks of a player like Chase were blanketed.  I don't think anyone has ever been able to blanket Chase...even in college where you are allowed contact beyond 5 yards.  He has the amazing short shuttle, the deep speed, and the ball-tracking skills to be a dominant WR in the league.  He is an alpha.  A leader.  He has set NATIONAL RECORDS at both the HS and college level.  If you try to press him, he will bench-press your ass in to the ground.  He is a WR with the build of a SS.  Fast, quick in short areas, great at contested catches, and unparalleled in deep ball tracking.  All things that the Bengals showed they needed against their division foes.  

Having Chase, Boyd, and Higgins on the field together opens up the running game by forcing safeties to play off the LOS.  It also opens up the underneath for RBs and TEs as receivers.  The bottom line:  THEY WILL SCORE MORE POINTS.  I believe they will score a shit-ton more points.  We have a coach that lives in 11 personnel more than any coach in the league.  Having three real WR threats will fit his offense perfectly.  Think of the Colts when they had Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, and Dallas Clark.  All first round picks.  They attacked the 3rd or 4th best cover option of the defense with elite talent.  Their offense was incredible.  They had a smart QB that could read defenses and attack them accordingly.  

The bottom line:  I see a much greater drop off in talent from Chase to the likes of Dyami Brown or others that may be there in Rd 2, than I do with Sewell compared to some of the players that could be long-term solutions at RT for the Bengals.  

FWIW, I won't be upset if they draft Sewell, but I would prefer Chase for the reasons I have outlined above.  You have to beat your division foes to win your division.  I think Chase helps them to that more than any player in the draft.  

The Bengals are not going to win more than 5 games with this offensive line.  We are also going to end up with Burrow on IR again I can almost guarantee it if we don't upgrade this line.  Who cares about receiver good teams don't build the team around the receivers.  You play too much fantasy football.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-16-2021, 12:21 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, I can only speak for myself, but I promise to jump right on board with you guys if we make a surprise choice and go with the big Samoan.

Ditto!  They whiney nature of "if you aren't with me, you are against me" is so tiresome.  It is exactly like our country during the elections.  The enemy here is the steeles, ravens, and Browns.  Not each other.  

If the Bengals draft Sewell instead of Chase, I will just start watching to see what WR we can snag in Rd 2 and be excited about that selection as well.  My preference for Chase isn't a slight on Sewell.  It is a function (as you said) of the difference in quality depth behind the two players in the draft.  That is it.  

If the Bengals draft Chase, I hope all of us unite in support of him instead of whining that they did nothing to address the offensive line (with 7 picks remaining).  That is what the national douchebags will do to put the Bengals down.  Just watch, it will happen.  Crap on them whenever you get a chance.  It is broadcasting 101 to cater to the largest fanbases and crap on the smallest.  Fine.  When Burrow and company are throwing up 30 burgers on a weekly basis, we will remind them of how horrible an idea it was to select Chase.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-16-2021, 11:31 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not #TeamChase, but I am #TeamPitts, so I guess we can be clumped together as #TeamPassCatcher.

If we give the weather analogy to players, here's my weather forecast for each of the expected starters:
- Jonah Williams - Partly cloudy, could be sunny
- Trey Hopkins - Cloudy as a run blocker, sunny as a pass blocker
- Riley Reiff - Mix of sunny and partly cloudy, but not expected to stick around long term
- XSF and Spain - Cloudy with a chance to be partly cloudy (could just need more acclimation to this scheme)

In terms of the draft, Any first round OL I would expect to come in immediately as partly cloudy with a high chance of being sunny.
Any OL picked at 38 I would expect to come in cloudy to partly cloudy as a rookie, chance to become sunny down the road.
Any OL picked in Rd 3 I would expect to come in cloudy or maybe some scattered showers, chance to become partly cloudy down the road.
Any Day 3 pick I expect to be rainy early on but hopefully clear up more year-by-year.

I don't think the OL has to be fully sunny for the offense to succeed, but they need to mostly be at least partly cloudy. 1 or maybe 2 can be cloudy.

So basically, I think the Bengals will be fine with Williams and Reiff at OT, Hopkins at C, and one of Spain or XSF at one OG spot with a Day 2 draft pick holding down the other OG spot.
The Bengals also could use a replacement for Reiff set to take over in 2022, which I think can be done with a Day 2 pick who is groomed for a year.
Any Day 3 pick I would expect to be a pure backup this year and probably for an extra year (or two) beyond that.

This is awesome, and based on the absolutely freaky weather we have had around here, it is like Mother Nature decided to say to your post:  "It can be all those things, none of those things, and it can change from one game to the next".  Remember Bobby Hart's one excellent game?  

The other day, driving to Cincy (from Centerville) to have dinner with a friend, it was sunny and 49 degrees.  Didn't look to be much of any clouds in the sky.  When I got to the Pfeiffer Road exit, it started raining, and clouded up.   A minute later, it was sleeting.  A minute later, it was white death with next to no visibility.  I put the truck in AWD and slowed to a creep.  It accumulated appx an inch in five minutes.  I drove about a mile and the snow turned to sleet.  A minute later, the sleet turned to rain.  A minute later (I am not exaggerating, I was looking at the clock) it cleared up and had compete sun and clear skies.  It was the strangest 10 minutes of weather I have ever seen.  

I pictures some really big kid with a magnifying glass aimed at me.  It was literally a snowstorm that was about 3 miles wide.  

[Bengalholic]

(04-23-2021, 12:05 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: The Bengals are not going to win more than 5 games with this offensive line.  We are also going to end up with Burrow on IR again I can almost guarantee it if we don't upgrade this line.  Who cares about receiver good teams don't build the team around the receivers.  You play too much fantasy football.

You do realize the draft is more than one round, right?