PFF pass block comparison - Bengals OL vs Bucs OL

[CoachGeorge]

(04-24-2021, 06:38 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Speaking of OL grades...

It’s interesting to me that despite the Dolphins having an even worse OL than us (and a very injury prone QB) that there is no narrative from the national media about “kicking them out of the league” if they take a playmaker at #6.

This is where PFF really gets exposed. O-Line is all about the whole being far more important than the sum of the parts. I have no problem with metrics judging individual performances. They mostly pass the eye test. Not so for team rankings. Tampa’s line was much, much better than the Bengals. PFF be damned.

As an old coach, I greatly prefer the team-oriented concept of Football Outsiders to the weaker PFF (even more so with o-line). In that regard, Miami clearly had a better year than the hapless Bengals o-line. It wasn’t great mind you, but it was clearly better (and since they went the 3 rookie starters even more so in my mind). We are talking mid-20’s rankings vs. late 20’s-30’s rankings but again, the 3 rookies.

Still, I believe with a full/nearly full seasons of Jonah, Spain, XSF and Reiff, plus a double dip in the draft, plus post-draft-training camp additions, and the development of the young o-lineman already on the roster and with my preferred wide zone scheme, the Bengals should expect significant improvement.

[Nicomo Cosca]

You guys are kind of missing the point. The national media should be screaming about Miami needing to go OL at 6 like they are with us. Especially with Tua’s injury history (and his popularity). And they aren’t. Most Dolphins fans are hoping and praying we will take Sewell so they can have Chase. At least from what I’ve seen online.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2021, 09:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You guys are kind of missing the point. The national media should be screaming about Miami needing to go OL at 6 like they are with us. Especially with Tua’s injury history (and his popularity). And they aren’t. Most Dolphins fans are hoping and praying we will take Sewell so they can have Chase. At least from what I’ve seen online.

Miami's line wasn't nearly as bad as ours last year though.

Sacks
Miami - 559 pass attempts - 34 sacks allowed - sacked every 16.4 attempts
Cincy- 581 pass attempts - 48 sacks allowed - sacked every 12.1 attempts

Hits Allowed
Miami- 46
Cincy- 72

Pressures Allowed
Miami- 116
Cincy- 157

--------------------------

Not to mention Burrow got hurt due to our line...while Tua did not. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-24-2021, 09:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Miami's line wasn't nearly as bad as ours last year though.

Sacks
Miami - 559 pass attempts - 34 sacks allowed - sacked every 16.4 attempts
Cincy- 581 pass attempts - 48 sacks allowed - sacked every 12.1 attempts

Hits Allowed
Miami- 46
Cincy- 72

Pressures Allowed
Miami- 116
Cincy- 157

--------------------------

Not to mention Burrow got hurt due to our line...while Tua did not. 

Last years lines are irrelevant in both cases. You have to go off this years. We added Reilly Reiff (the highest graded player on either team). They added Matt Skura...

[Burma]

(04-24-2021, 09:23 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You guys are kind of missing the point. The national media should be screaming about Miami needing to go OL at 6 like they are with us. Especially with Tua’s injury history (and his popularity). And they aren’t. Most Dolphins fans are hoping and praying we will take Sewell so they can have Chase. At least from what I’ve seen online.

Part of that is they have the draft capital to address both WR and OL in round 1. They are in a can't lose position with the 6th and 18th picks. Bengals take Chase they take Sewell/Slater and then a WR at 18.  Bengals take Sewell, Dolphins get choice of whomever is left of Pitts/Chase and then whomever is BPA OL at 18.  It appears to be assumed they will do the right thing.  Bengals, not so much.

The other part is they have a QB with no weapons.  Their best receiver, Parker, has only had 1 game over a hundred yards. The rest of the WR group is lackluster to say the least. Preston Williams, and JaKeem Grant threaten no one. Their TE, Gesicki, is solid.  So, for the Dolphins taking a WR over an OL would be reasonable, not my choice, but understandable, while for the Bengals it would be a luxury pick.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-24-2021, 09:49 PM)Burma Wrote: Part of that is they have the draft capital to address both WR and OL in round 1. They are in a can't lose position with the 6th and 18th picks. Bengals take Chase they take Sewell/Slater and then a WR at 18.  Bengals take Sewell, Dolphins get choice of whomever is left of Pitts/Chase and then whomever is BPA OL at 18.  It appears to be assumed they will do the right thing.  Bengals, not so much.

The other part is they have a QB with no weapons.  Their best receiver, Parker, has only had 1 game over a hundred yards. The rest of the WR group is lackluster to say the least. Preston Williams, and JaKeem Grant threaten no one. Their TE, Gesicki, is solid.  So, for the Dolphins taking a WR over an OL would be reasonable, not my choice, but understandable, while for the Bengals it would be a luxury pick.

Disagree with the “luxury” part for the Bengals. A team that runs 11 personnel almost 80% of the time needs a better group of WR’s than many other teams.

[Murdock2420]

(04-24-2021, 09:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Disagree with the “luxury” part for the Bengals. A team that runs 11 personnel almost 80% of the time needs a better group of WR’s than many other teams.

When you are paying Joe Mixon that much money and have a new running game coordinator, I would hope we see a lot less of the 11 personnel which I honestly think would be the best move for the offense.

Not suggesting we get a fullback, but a two TE set does create the situation of, are they running or throwing. Makes us less predictable.

[Burma]

(04-24-2021, 09:53 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Disagree with the “luxury” part for the Bengals. A team that runs 11 personnel almost 80% of the time needs a better group of WR’s than many other teams.

I can agree with that, but it doesn't mean all your eggs in 1 basket. Looking at the Rams in 2018 (their best recent season at 13-3) their starting 3 WR were Robert Woods, Cooper Kupp, and Brandon cooks. I would say Higgins and Boyd are at least equal to Woods and Cooks (#1 and slot wr comparison)  Cooper Kupp was a 3rd round pick. Perhap he was underrated, but when you're a WR and run a 4.62 40 you don't get rated highly. There are several quality options that could fill the Kupp role in this draft.  Also Woods ran a 4.51 40 and Kupp ran a 4.62, so who was taking the top off defenses for their offense? 

I will say the Rams have gotten more out of Tyler Higbee than the Bengals have gotten out of Sample so far, but I am putting that on Taylor.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2021, 09:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Last years lines are irrelevant in both cases. You have to go off this years. We added Reilly Reiff (the highest graded player on either team). They added Matt Skura...

We allowed 14 more sacks, 26 more hits, and 41 more pressures than Miami.

You think replacing Hart with Reiff now makes us even? Stop it.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-24-2021, 09:58 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: When you are paying Joe Mixon that much money and have a new running game coordinator, I would hope we see a lot less of the 11 personnel which I honestly think would be the best move for the offense.

Not suggesting we get a fullback, but a two TE set does create the situation of, are they running or throwing. Makes us less predictable.

That would be nice, but it just doesn’t seem like ZT’s MO.

Anyway, I wasn’t really trying to rehash the Sewell vs Chase debate for the millionth time, so much as I’m just trying to point out the hypocrisy from the talking heads. Yes, Burrow is the one that actually got hurt, but Tua only started 9 games. And they sheltered him at that. They won’t be able to do that forever. Keeping him health has to be a huge concern given his history.

But I do agree they desperately need weapons. Even more than us. But as someone else just mentioned they have multiple 1sts, and could grab a Bateman or a Marshall later in the round.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-24-2021, 10:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We allowed 14 more sacks, 26 more hits, and 41 more pressures than Miami.

You think replacing Hart with Reiff now makes us even? Stop it.

You’re conveniently leaving out that we also replaced Jordan (who gave up an ungodly amount of pressures). So you stop it. You can want Sewell without ignoring how different last years week one OL was to this year’s.

[Burma]

(04-24-2021, 10:22 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That would be nice, but it just doesn’t seem like ZT’s MO.

Anyway, I wasn’t really trying to rehash the Sewell vs Chase debate for the millionth time, so much as I’m just trying to point out the hypocrisy from the talking heads. Yes, Burrow is the one that actually got hurt, but Tua only started 9 games. And they sheltered him at that. They won’t be able to do that forever. Keeping him health has to be a huge concern given his history.

But I do agree they desperately need weapons. Even more than us. But as someone else just mentioned they have multiple 1sts, and could grab a Bateman or a Marshall later in the round.

I am not really caring for Taylor. Either he doesn't know how to make the most of the talent he has or he is too fixed in his scheme to change.  Neither is a hallmark of a good coach.

I agree that protecting Tua has to be paramount for them. If I was the Dolphins my move would be taking whomever the Bengals dont (Chase or Sewell) at 6 and then at 18 either WR or OT depending on what they did at 6. Then with both their second round going back to the Oline, something like Cosi/Leatherwood and then Meinerz/Dickerson.

[grampahol]

Something you don't hear a lot about is Palmer had a MUCH better OLine and suffered the same fate as Burrow with his knee getting mangled then his elbow.. What does it mean? Hell if I know, but even great Olines aren't perfect 100% of the time.

[Burma]

(04-24-2021, 11:00 PM)grampahol Wrote: Something you don't hear a lot about is Palmer had a MUCH better OLine and suffered the same fate as Burrow with his knee getting mangled then his elbow.. What does it mean? Hell if I know, but even great Olines aren't perfect 100% of the time.

It means the Steelers went Cobra Kai and swept the leg like cheap 80s ski school movie villians.

[Murdock2420]

(04-24-2021, 10:22 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That would be nice, but it just doesn’t seem like ZT’s MO.

Anyway, I wasn’t really trying to rehash the Sewell vs Chase debate for the millionth time, so much as I’m just trying to point out the hypocrisy from the talking heads. Yes, Burrow is the one that actually got hurt, but Tua only started 9 games. And they sheltered him at that. They won’t be able to do that forever. Keeping him health has to be a huge concern given his history.

But I do agree they desperately need weapons. Even more than us. But as someone else just mentioned they have multiple 1sts, and could grab a Bateman or a Marshall later in the round.

I understand completely, and my statement about moving on from 11 wasn't about the grand debate either, hell if anything using a two TE set would lean more towards drafting Pitts then anyone.

I just would like to see this team be less predictable and actually show some growth but I think you are right. Taylor wants to be a gunslinger and try to be an offensive "visionary" and he just isn't at that level. 

I know they say Burrow was more comfortable in the spread offense and the shotgun/pistol but at some point you have to get under center and just grind out 3rd and short instead of throwing it. Catch the defense off guard instead of saying "hey guys, we're passing here"

[Murdock2420]

(04-24-2021, 11:00 PM)grampahol Wrote: Something you don't hear a lot about is Palmer had a MUCH better OLine and suffered the same fate as Burrow with his knee getting mangled then his elbow.. What does it mean? Hell if I know, but even great Olines aren't perfect 100% of the time.

(04-24-2021, 11:08 PM)Burma Wrote: It means the Steelers went Cobra Kai and swept the leg like cheap 80s ski school movie villians.

Exactly what Burma said, the injury to Palmer was one the dirtiest things I've seen from the steelers in the years of them being dirty. It was a late dive at the QBs knee. 

That wasn't bad protection, or anything to do with the line, it was absolutely intent to injure. And as usually with the steelers cheap shot ways, it is only after they use something to their advantage that the rules get updated. In the current NFL rules, that Kimo dive and twist is against the rules and gets fines, and suspensions and a penalty. Of course, 15 yards is a small price to pay for a playoff win. 

As for the elbow, I believe he tore that on a throw not due to contact. (I looked it up, there is no indication it was an injury from a sack or hit, just that his elbow was sore after the Cleveland game and he then came out due to the sore elbow against Dallas. The MRI showed it was partially torn ligaments.)

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2021, 10:37 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re conveniently leaving out that we also replaced Jordan (who gave up an ungodly amount of pressures). So you stop it. You can want Sewell without ignoring how different last years week one OL was to this year’s.

Who did we replace Jordan with? Surely your argument isn't that XSF - with his 25 games played in the last 3 years and 59.1 PFF grade - is the upgrade that propels us above Miami.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-25-2021, 01:55 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Who did we replace Jordan with? Surely your argument isn't that XSF - with his 25 games played in the last 3 years and 59.1 PFF grade - is the upgrade that propels us above Miami.

Spain, XSF, a traffic barrel, anything is an upgrade over Jordan. He’s right there with Ogbuehi as one of the worst linemen we’ve ever had. If you think Miami’s OL is better, fine. I just happened to see on Twitter that we have better grades going into this season than they do. Pretty significantly at the OT position. And I thought it was interesting as it pertains to the draft.

It’s not really anything I care to argue further over though.

[Whatever]

(04-24-2021, 09:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Miami's line wasn't nearly as bad as ours last year though.

Sacks
Miami - 559 pass attempts - 34 sacks allowed - sacked every 16.4 attempts
Cincy- 581 pass attempts - 48 sacks allowed - sacked every 12.1 attempts

Hits Allowed
Miami- 46
Cincy- 72

Pressures Allowed
Miami- 116
Cincy- 157

--------------------------

Not to mention Burrow got hurt due to our line...while Tua did not. 

Matt Minich did a breakdown on every sack Burrow took today. 32% of them were coverage sacks in his estimation.

Total sacks, hits, and pressures are only part of the picture.  The things you're missing are causing the QB to take a pounding and are not necessarily the OL's fault.  That's why an OL can grade better, but give up more sacks, hits, pressures, etc.

[tms]

(04-24-2021, 11:00 PM)grampahol Wrote: Something you don't hear a lot about is Palmer had a MUCH better OLine and suffered the same fate as Burrow with his knee getting mangled then his elbow.. What does it mean? Hell if I know, but even great Olines aren't perfect 100% of the time.

The second part is true. The first draws a false equivalence. I pull out my hair every time I hear it. 

Yes, a freak injury can happen to any QB. So to prevent that from happening, you need to protect him as much as possible lol. It's not rocket science. It's like saying, "Why would you want Megatron? You'll still throw some incompletions and interceptions." Like, yeah! I guess! But what game are we playing here- Perfection or Bust?! Are we saying Megatron wouldn't help?! Or that a good OL wouldn't protect the QB?!

I know that wasn't your point but I just had to vent. It's the age we live in. All these gotchas wear me out.