Can someone name a better receiving core?

[Whatever]

(04-26-2021, 12:37 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Year 1 Probably Still Better (no particular order):
Bucs
Vikings
Cowboys
Falcons

Obviously have no idea how Chase would immediately perform and later develop, but at least initially, I think those teams would be ahead. Also if AJ Green comes back to even 80% of his former self, I think you would have to consider putting the Cardinals on the list by the sheer strength of Hopkins, but I am not confident enough of that to actually add them on the list right now.

I would add Seattle to that list.  Metcalf and Lockett are an elite 1-2 and David Moore catches a very high % of his targets and had 6 TD's.

[Amalone002]

(04-26-2021, 11:40 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He had 925 yards and 14 TD's.

Really didn't seem like that much I know he didn't do much of anything at the start of the season. Maybe came on at the end or had some garbage time stats but still take boyd , higgins, and chase over him.

[Amalone002]

(04-26-2021, 12:29 PM)Whatever Wrote: I would add Seattle to that list.  Metcalf and Lockett are an elite 1-2 and David Moore catches a very high % of his targets and had 6 TD's.

Meh.  Their ok Too inconsistent, Metcalf is a beast tho. 

[NUGDUKWE]

I'm a Bengal homer especially when it comes to the players rather than the coaches. Boyd and Higgins are clearly not the best WR duo in the NFL. But with Chase added I think that would have to be the best three. I know they still need to take the field but I think Chase has a high floor. I think Chase missing a year will hurt him year 1 the Burrow chemistry will help negate that issue.

But my other question and maybe year 1 it wouldn't be an issue. But is there enough room in the fragile ecosystem of a nfl locker room for 3 WR of that caliber. All these other teams with comparable WR groups seem to have vlear seating as far as where they all fit in the offense. Two's company but three's a crowd.

[impactplaya]

Funny nobody has mentioned how the 2-SB teams
Last year had great to elite recieving cores.
I think these days your WR/TEs as a whole have
To be great to elite in order to be a great to elite team.

[PDub80]

(04-26-2021, 12:54 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm a Bengal homer especially when it comes to the players rather than the coaches. Boyd and Higgins are clearly not the best WR duo in the NFL. But with Chase added I think that would have to be the best three. I know they still need to take the field but I think Chase has a high floor. I think Chase missing a year will hurt him year 1 the Burrow chemistry will help negate that issue.

But my other question and maybe year 1 it wouldn't be an issue. But is there enough room in the fragile ecosystem of a nfl locker room for 3 WR of that caliber. All these other teams with comparable WR groups seem to have vlear seating as far as where they all fit in the offense. Two's company but three's a crowd.

I think the locker room goes as Joey B allows it to. That's pretty much how that is at this point. I also think they have really great guys in there. Not a lot of "Me first" people in that locker room at all. Besides that, Higgins played on a super talented Clemson team and Chase, for example, was part of an ultra talented group as well. Boyd is a big time team guy.

Something people forget... and by doing so I can tell in the comments who actually knows anything about the Bengals on here and who's a not really deep into it... the Bengals run "11" personnel more than any other team in the NFL. 11 personnel = 3 WR, 1 RB, & 1 TE. They do not care about a "duo". They need a trio because of the offense they run. This is why not having an explosive playmaker or a guy who can take the top off of the defense KILLED them the past 2 years and helped disable toe run game as well. AJ Green was slow and busted, Ross.... just a BUST. Higgins & Boyd are 2/3 of a 3 part solution. It's unreasonable to think those 2 can do the job of 3 or just throwing anyone out there because they are a 3rd option. The Bengals offense isn't setup to run that way at all. It isn't a #1, 2, 3 WR offense. It is an offense that takes what the defense gives away. They will all 3 take turns getting focused by the defense and being the focus of the offense on a play by play basis.

They also run a ton of empty backfield stuff. Watching film explanations, listening to podcasts of the guys who cover the team, watching the games, speaking to them myself when I can, etc. the Bengals also run a lot of "EMPTY". That's NO RB, hence the "Empty" backfield (or the RB is motioned into a slot route presnap), along with 4 WR (with a TE) & 5 WR (NO TE) sets. This is to force the defense to declare what coverages they are in so they can disguise only very little presnap. Burrow then just changes the plays to whatever is needed, reroutes everyone as needed, and they all do their jobs..... This is why getting a WR who can process the game the same way and at the same speed Joe does is CRITICAL. Higgins is smart and came on strong. Boyd is excellent. They need the 3rd guy.

I see absolutely NO issues with the Bengals being torn apart by "Me" guys. The one they had, Dunlap, was jettisoned out of there when he became an issue. Almost immediately.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-25-2021, 11:36 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I just brought this up in the draft forums. But if we draft Ja'marr Chase can someone name a comparable receiving core to that in the NFL?

I'm wondering if that's a good or bad thing? I would think it's a good thing but not one team having a receiving core like that would make you think there's a reason.

Receivers can be divas especially when they're not getting the ball. The only team I would think had something like that is Tampa Bay with Evans, Godwin and AB. But I had Mike Evans on my fantasy team and watching some of their games because of that fact even he was getting a bit salty and Tom Brady was his quarterback and they won the superbowl. What happens if your not winning and not getting the ball.

Maybe I'm reading way too much into but I've just found myself leaning Chase because I think thats the way its headed and I think it may be a legitimate concern. People say we need a #1 WR but Boyd and Higgins are just supposed to accept a diminished role? If you say they're roles won't change then how many pass attempts does Burrow have a game? 

Falcons will still have a better WR core without knowing what their draft holds but to be honest really can;t rate a rookie until they start playing 

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 01:10 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Funny nobody has mentioned how the 2-SB teams
Last year had great to elite recieving cores.
I think these days your WR/TEs as a whole have
To be great to elite in order to be a great to elite team.

KC has Hill and Kelce. That's it.

After those two last year it was a whose who of nothing:

3rd leading WR

Mecole Hardman: with a total of 560 yards

then

Demarcus Robinson with 466 yards

Sammy Watkins with 421 yards

Clyde Edwards-Helaire with 297 yards


The top two they have are really great (and neither a 1st round pick FYI) but I wouldn't call that an elite receiving group. Two great guys, and a bunch of question marks and a really good RB.

That sounds almost like what we have now.... huh... maybe a better coach would get better results from the obvious talent we have and scheme to use the RB more...

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 04:21 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: The top two they have are really great (and neither a 1st round pick FYI) but I wouldn't call that an elite receiving group. Two great guys, and a bunch of question marks and a really good RB.

That sounds almost like what we have now.... huh... maybe a better coach would get better results from the obvious talent we have and scheme to use the RB more...

Did you just compare Tyler Boyd and Tee Higgins to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce?  They have a top 5 WR, and the best TE in the game. 

Travis Kelce was 2nd in the NFL last year in receiving yards, Hill was 8th.  By comparison, Tee Higgins was 28th and Tyler Boyd was 35th.

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 04:31 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Did you just compare Tyler Boyd and Tee Higgins to Tyreek Hill and Travis Kelce?  They have a top 5 WR, and the best TE in the game. 

Travis Kelce was 2nd in the NFL last year in receiving yards, Hill was 8th.  By comparison, Tee Higgins was 28th and Tyler Boyd was 35th.

I compared having two real weapons and a bunch of nothing after it... so yes. 

I don't think Higgins or Boyd are on the level of Hill or Kelce but at the same time, having just two guys and a bunch of nothing else is exactly what the Chiefs have... and it that really an elite group when an injury limits you to one guy?

[*Nately120*]

I think our WR corps could be looking good, sure...but when was the last time we went into a season without a thread wondering how anyone could ever stop our WRs? It's always a fun time.

[*Nately120*]

(04-26-2021, 11:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Whichever team takes Devonta Smith

Will the AFC be all about Tua and Devonta vs Burrow and Chase?  And yes, I'm aware the AFC will more likely be about the Chiefs/Bills/Ravens etc.

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 04:33 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I compared having two real weapons and a bunch of nothing after it... so yes. 

I don't think Higgins or Boyd are on the level of Hill or Kelce but at the same time, having just two guys and a bunch of nothing else is exactly what the Chiefs have... and it that really an elite group when an injury limits you to one guy?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason their 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers don't put up bigger numbers is because their top 2 weapons are that good and eat up a ton of targets?

Also, if you look at the numbers from their #3, #4, and #5 WR's it sould tell you they really spread around the usage.  It's rare you'll see a all 3 get over 400 yards.  For example, our 4 and 5 this year were Tate and Erikson, who finished with 150 and and 139.

I don't think it's fair at all to call someone like Mercole Hardman "nothing".  He was a 2nd round pick in 2019 and he has 1,098 yards and 10 TD's (549 yards and 5 TD's average) in his first two years, joining a team that is STACKED at the top.  I don't think it's at all unrealistic to think if he joined a different team (Ex: The Niners, Jets, Dolphins, Giants, etc.) he'd be at least an 800+ yard guy.

I'd love to have Hardman on this team.  

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 04:52 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason their 3rd, 4th and 5th receivers don't put up bigger numbers is because their top 2 weapons are that good and eat up a ton of targets?

Also, if you look at the numbers from their #3, #4, and #5 WR's it sould tell you they really spread around the usage.  It's rare you'll see a all 3 get over 400 yards.  For example, our 4 and 5 this year were Tate and Erikson, who finished with 150 and and 139.

I don't think it's fair at all to call someone like Mercole Hardman "nothing".  He was a 2nd round pick in 2019 and he has 1,098 yards and 10 TD's (549 yards and 5 TD's average) in his first two years, joining a team that is STACKED at the top.  I don't think it's at all unrealistic to think if he joined a different team (Ex: The Niners, Jets, Dolphins, Giants, etc.) he'd be at least an 800+ yard guy.

I'd love to have Hardman on this team.  

So again... better coaching and better play calling and better scouting since all the people you are pimping in this elite group are 2nd, 5th and 2nd rounders....

As for Hardman, his yards were 20 better then a broken down Green.

We had no passing attack worth mentioning once Burrow went down (with the exception of one great game by Allen). So yeah I'm not surprised our 4th, 5th and 6th targets had next to no yards. 

Week 12 136 yards passing
Week 13 153 yards passing
Week 14 217 yards passing
Week 16 371 yards (great game)
Week 17 48 yards passing... 48 ***** yards.

And Finley never went over 100 yards passing in any game.

So before we start creaming our pants over the numbers of their 3rd, 4th, 8th options how about some real hard facts.

1) Our QB was gone after Washington and all the passing numbers fell off. So their guys having more "numbers" isn't a surprise.
2) Mahomes is better then Burrow. (Currently before the Burrow boys freak out.)
3) Reid is better then Taylor.
4) Bieniemy is better then Brian Callahan.

We have no idea how good Tee Higgins can actually be, he was on a steady rise up each week with Burrow and went off the rails just like the offense did after Burrow gets hurt.

I honestly believe Tee will be Top 15 possibly top 10 in receiving yards this season if they give him the chance and aren't forcing targets to a certain WR like they did with Green.

[Whatever]

(04-26-2021, 04:21 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: KC has Hill and Kelce. That's it.

After those two last year it was a whose who of nothing:

3rd leading WR

Mecole Hardman: with a total of 560 yards

then

Demarcus Robinson with 466 yards

Sammy Watkins with 421 yards

Clyde Edwards-Helaire with 297 yards


The top two they have are really great (and neither a 1st round pick FYI) but I wouldn't call that an elite receiving group. Two great guys, and a bunch of question marks and a really good RB.

That sounds almost like what we have now.... huh... maybe a better coach would get better results from the obvious talent we have and scheme to use the RB more...

The big thing you're missing is targets.  Boyd and Higgins had 100+ targets last year.  Hardman, Watkins, and Robinson had 50-60 each.  That's because Boyd and Higgins are the top 2 receiving options for the Bengals while those guys are the 3-5 option.  If you put Boyd or Higgins on KC, they would be down in the 400-500 yard range, too, because they aren't getting 100+ targets with Hill and Kelce on the field.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-26-2021, 03:19 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I think the locker room goes as Joey B allows it to. That's pretty much how that is at this point. I also think they have really great guys in there. Not a lot of "Me first" people in that locker room at all. Besides that, Higgins played on a super talented Clemson team and Chase, for example, was part of an ultra talented group as well. Boyd is a big time team guy.

Something people forget... and by doing so I can tell in the comments who actually knows anything about the Bengals on here and who's a not really deep into it... the Bengals run "11" personnel more than any other team in the NFL. 11 personnel = 3 WR, 1 RB, & 1 TE. They do not care about a "duo". They need a trio because of the offense they run. This is why not having an explosive playmaker or a guy who can take the top off of the defense KILLED them the past 2 years and helped disable toe run game as well. AJ Green was slow and busted, Ross.... just a BUST. Higgins & Boyd are 2/3 of a 3 part solution. It's unreasonable to think those 2 can do the job of 3 or just throwing anyone out there because they are a 3rd option. The Bengals offense isn't setup to run that way at all. It isn't a #1, 2, 3 WR offense. It is an offense that takes what the defense gives away. They will all 3 take turns getting focused by the defense and being the focus of the offense on a play by play basis.

They also run a ton of empty backfield stuff. Watching film explanations, listening to podcasts of the guys who cover the team, watching the games, speaking to them myself when I can, etc. the Bengals also run a lot of "EMPTY". That's NO RB, hence the "Empty" backfield (or the RB is motioned into a slot route presnap), along with 4 WR (with a TE) & 5 WR (NO TE) sets. This is to force the defense to declare what coverages they are in so they can disguise only very little presnap. Burrow then just changes the plays to whatever is needed, reroutes everyone as needed, and they all do their jobs..... This is why getting a WR who can process the game the same way and at the same speed Joe does is CRITICAL. Higgins is smart and came on strong. Boyd is excellent. They need the 3rd guy.

I see absolutely NO issues with the Bengals being torn apart by "Me" guys. The one they had, Dunlap, was jettisoned out of there when he became an issue. Almost immediately.

I admit to not be being the most knowledgeable on the schematics of the game of football and if someone asked me what 11 personnel was I wouldn't have been able to explain it. I know that our offense wants to run multiple WR sets. I also think its safe to assume that anyone on these boards or who watches football by choice knows what "empty" means. You did make some good points that Tyler Boyd and Higgins don't strike me as "Me Guys" and I agree that Boyd is excellent and Higgins showed alot of potential.

But I refuse to characterize Dunlap as a "Me Guy". He's a professional athlete who put in a ton of work and played here for 10 years. Anyone who gets demoted at work would be upset but to put the kind of work that these guys put in for again 10 years and have the coaches not even have the gull to sit down with you and let you know whats going on is ridiculous. I just can't understand how fans can be so quick to write someone off over a coaching staff. A coaching staff that has literally done nothing but be so terrible they get the #1 pick in the draft. Then immediately turn around and try and get said #1 pick killed with they're play calling. I think if Dunlap hadn't got upset it would've spoke more about his character than the other way around.

[Murdock2420]

(04-26-2021, 05:11 PM)Whatever Wrote: The big thing you're missing is targets.  Boyd and Higgins had 100+ targets last year.  Hardman, Watkins, and Robinson had 50-60 each.  That's because Boyd and Higgins are the top 2 receiving options for the Bengals while those guys are the 3-5 option.  If you put Boyd or Higgins on KC, they would be down in the 400-500 yard range, too, because they aren't getting 100+ targets with Hill and Kelce on the field.

I doubt Higgins is the 3rd option. 

It's amazing how half this fanbase (The same half that wants to draft a certain guy in round one funny enough) wants to sell short a guy who has one NFL season, was a 2nd round pick and literally developed into a really legit weapon with Burrow as the QB and has the ceiling to be a top 15 to top 10 WR in this league.

I'm so over this debate and the stupidity. I hope they take Chase... and then when we win 5 games, maybe Taylor gets fired and team Chase fanboi's can jump on the draft the LSU CB in round one in 2022 since he played with Burrow too....

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-26-2021, 08:10 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: The Bucs did but like I said I think things were boarderline about to get ugly there. There were mulitple games Evans wasn't getting the kind of targets Mike Evans should get.

The Vikings no Theilen and Jefferson.

The Falcons no Julio and Ridley.

I want to say yes to the Cowboys but that whole situation is still new and I'm not sure how that will work out. Also I looked up Micheal Gallup because I knew he was a free agent. Did you know he signed a 4 year $3.5mil dollar deal. Talk about bargain basement deal. Where were we at on this the Bengals could have totally sweetend that pot.

Uh, yes. Jefferson and Jones are leaps above what the Bengals have now. Ridley went 1,374 and 9 and Thielen went 925 and 14. Those two teams are clearly ahead of the Bengals. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(04-26-2021, 05:09 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So again... better coaching and better play calling and better scouting since all the people you are pimping in this elite group are 2nd, 5th and 2nd rounders....

As for Hardman, his yards were 20 better then a broken down Green.

We had no passing attack worth mentioning once Burrow went down (with the exception of one great game by Allen). So yeah I'm not surprised our 4th, 5th and 6th targets had next to no yards. 

Week 12 136 yards passing
Week 13 153 yards passing
Week 14 217 yards passing
Week 16 371 yards (great game)
Week 17 48 yards passing... 48 ***** yards.

And Finley never went over 100 yards passing in any game.

So before we start creaming our pants over the numbers of their 3rd, 4th, 8th options how about some real hard facts.

1) Our QB was gone after Washington and all the passing numbers fell off. So their guys having more "numbers" isn't a surprise.
2) Mahomes is better then Burrow. (Currently before the Burrow boys freak out.)
3) Reid is better then Taylor.
4) Bieniemy is better then Brian Callahan.

We have no idea how good Tee Higgins can actually be, he was on a steady rise up each week with Burrow and went off the rails just like the offense did after Burrow gets hurt.

I honestly believe Tee will be Top 15 possibly top 10 in receiving yards this season if they give him the chance and aren't forcing targets to a certain WR like they did with Green.

Oh, I see what this is now.

Since the conversation has now magically shifted to draft position it's clear this is about nothing more than drafting Sewell.

Why didn't you just say that instead of looking for lazy examples to justify the pick in a roundabout way?

You said (implied) two things:  1.) Higgins and Boyd are comprable to Hill and Kelce. and 2.) The Chiefs have nothing else after them.

Both of those are stupid opinions.  I'm sorry, but they are.  And I never once said anything about draft position.  I never said anything about us drafting Chase.  I just replied to what was written (the above). 

If you're looking to have that conversation please look anywhere else.  I'm draft'd out.  I'm to the point where i just want to get over with.  I'm so God damn tired of every single conversation (often disguised as something else) revolving around a singular draft pick.

Forgive me for walking into a conversation that was presented to be about the quality of the Chiefs top 2 WR's actually being about the stupidity of the Bengals using a 1st round on a WR in 2021.  Had I known that I would have never replied.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-26-2021, 05:32 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Uh, yes. Jefferson and Jones are leaps above what the Bengals have now. Ridley went 1,374 and 9 and Thielen went 925 and 14. Those two teams are clearly ahead of the Bengals. 

I agree those guys beat out Boyd and Higgins. I meant after/if we add Chase. I would think on paper our top 3 would beat out those teams top 3. Or really what I was asking is our top 3 would be even in my mind with each other. Where as with Atlanta, Vikings and even KC they may have other good receivers behind they're top 2 but they know where they stand in the offense compared to the top 2. If adding Chase may ultimately might lead to turmoil because Boyd has established himself and Higgins has shown alot of promise. If Chase comes in does someone target share start to drop off/ role in the offense. I don't know I think I was just trying to think of an interesting perspective before the draft.