Defensive Improvements

[fredtoast]

(05-27-2021, 02:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Hubbard - average (above avg in run defense, below avg in pass rush)

Don't know why everyone is so down on Hubbard as a pass rusher.  His first two seasons he had 14.5 sacks in only 1300 snaps played.  He has shown he has the skills to be an effective, productive pass rusher.

Our D-line sucked so bad last year no one was getting many sacks.

And even if he is just "average" in pass rush he is one of the bestr in the league against the run, so that makes him "above average"

[fredtoast]

(05-27-2021, 03:13 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: That would be just 3 players in the top 160 defensive players in the NFL,

160 players is less than 5 per team.  So 3 is not that bad.

[fredtoast]

(05-27-2021, 02:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Ogunjobi - average (had a down year in CLE after playing NT)

You are way off on Larry.

Last year he played 60% of the snaps on the leagues #3 rush defense and had as many TFLs as Sheldon Richardson.

He was making a ton of huge plays in 2018 and 2019.  Over those two seasons among all DTs he ranked 5th in TFLs (20), 6th in solo tackles (68), 11th in QB hits (28), and 12th in sacks (11).

[GreenCornBengal]

I’ll leave this here. NFL.coms top 10 disrupters of 2020. They ranked players using some next gen stats around disruption.

https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-stats-top-10-disruptors-of-2020-aaron-donald-ranks-high-but-not-no-1

Hendrickson lands at #3 only behind Bosa and Watt. Lawson not far behind at #7.

[Sled21]

(05-27-2021, 06:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals should have never let Guenther leave. Was a damn good DC in Cincy.

People didn't want Guenther either. He was just Zimmer's waterboy as I recall....

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-27-2021, 11:16 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I truly think Lou is going to run a good defense. He just wanted to run his scheme, even with the wrong players. I guess some would say that's a bad thing, it certainly didn't work out. But, he has his players now, so time to produce. 

Absolutely.  And I have long said that the best coaches are excellent teachers.  Even at the NFL level.  That is one thing that Belichek is supposed to be outstanding is in communicating how and why he wants things done a certain way.  He focuses on smarter players that can handle the extra mental reps for all he demands.  Lou has to be able to get guys to see his vision and understand why and how it will work.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-27-2021, 02:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I have never connected brilliance and allowing 161 rushing yards at 6.7 yards per carry in a game before. Lol

They scored 17 in the first half and then just put it in cruise control. (Bengals massively won time of possession in that game, too, so they didn't just allow all the rushing because the defense was tired.)

And how many yards passing was Wilson held to?  How many times did they sack him?

[Sled21]

(05-28-2021, 08:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: And how many yards passing was Wilson held to?  How many times did they sack him?

We're supposed to ignore the good games.  Sure, Lou's defenses put up some stinkers, but they also put up some good games. You would think fans would acknowledge that.

[impactplaya]

(05-27-2021, 08:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know why everyone is so down on Hubbard as a pass rusher.  His first two seasons he had 14.5 sacks in only 1300 snaps played.  He has shown he has the skills to be an effective, productive pass rusher.

Our D-line sucked so bad last year no one was getting many sacks.

And even if he is just "average" in pass rush he is one of the bestr in the league against the run, so that makes him "above average"

Hubbared looks the part of a top level pass rushing DE.
Long arms, tall. But at this moment he is a very below average
Pass rusher. 
He has been in the league for 3 years and yet he has 
Yet to achieve double digit sacks. 
And this is a league that is dominated by the passing game
Pass attempts,ate at a,all time high. 
Hubbard needs to work on his get off speed. 
And he needs to use his,long arms to master that tomahawk
Chop. 
What is Hubbards go to pass rush move.....What is his 
Counter move?
Averaging 5.5 sacks a year wont cut it. 
Myles Garrett achieves that a 3rd of a season.
The Bengals drafted 2 young stallions that are closers and 
Finishers. 
Its time for Hubbard to decide if he wants to be a so so
Pass rusher or a dominant one.
If Sample and Ossai are what the Bengals think they
Can be, then Hubbard may see his snaps decrease
Hubbard is replaceable. 

[*ochocincos*]

(05-28-2021, 08:17 AM)Sled21 Wrote: People didn't want Guenther either. He was just Zimmer's waterboy as I recall....

They wanted Guenther, he just wasn't QUITE as good as Zimmer.
He still never had a defense worse than 16th in Points Allowed. His worst Yards Allowed was 22nd.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-27-2021, 08:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are way off on Larry.

Last year he played 60% of the snaps on the leagues #3 rush defense and had as many TFLs as Sheldon Richardson.

He was making a ton of huge plays in 2018 and 2019.  Over those two seasons among all DTs he ranked 5th in TFLs (20), 6th in solo tackles (68), 11th in QB hits (28), and 12th in sacks (11).

I knew of the numbers, but I didn't know of the ranks.
28 pressures and 11 sacks in 2 seasons didn't seem that impressive to me, but perhaps I've been spoiled by Atkins' history.

[fredtoast]

(05-28-2021, 09:38 AM)impactplaya Wrote: He has been in the league for 3 years and yet he has 
Yet to achieve double digit sacks. 

Only 10 players in the league had double digit sacks last year and many of those guys were OLB or pass rush specialists while Hubbard is one of the best DEs in the league against the run.

(05-28-2021, 09:38 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Averaging 5.5 sacks a year wont cut it. 

His first two seasons he only played about 1300 snaps and had 14.5 sacks.  That is a very good sack to snap ratio for a guy who was not just playing third downs/passing downs.

He had a bad year last season, but I don't think it is fair to judge his entire career based on one season where we had no one at DT to keep the QB from stepping up in the pocket.  Carl Lawson only had 5.5 sacks in 750 snaps played for us last year and he got $15 million a year to rush the passer for the Jets.

(05-28-2021, 09:38 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Hubbard is replaceable. 

EVERY player on the team is replaceable if you have unlimited cap space and sign the elite players in the league at every position.  Hubbard is excellent against the run and has shown in '18 and '19 that he can get to the QB.  If you demand a guy who is good against the run and top ten in sacks then you are going to have to spend $15-20 million a year to replace him.

[impactplaya]

(05-28-2021, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Only 10 players in the league had double digit sacks last year and many of those guys were OLB or pass rush specialists while Hubbard is one of the best DEs in the league against the run.



His first two seasons he only played about 1300 snaps and had 14.5 sacks.  That is a very good sack to snap ratio for a guy who was not just playing third downs/passing downs.

He had a bad year last season, but I don't think it is fair to judge his entire career based on one season where we had no one at DT to keep the QB from stepping up in the pocket.  Carl Lawson only had 5.5 sacks in 750 snaps played for us last year and he got $15 million a year to rush the passer for the Jets.

EVERY player on the team is replaceable if you have unlimited cap space and sign the elite players in the league at every position.  Hubbard is excellent against the run and has shown in '18 and '19 that he can get to the QB.  If you demand a guy who is good against the run and top ten in sacks then you are going to have to spend $15-20 million a year to replace him.

Yeah is very good vs the run. He is a better run defender than 
Pass rusher. But this era of football DEs are asked to be disruptors and finishers of the QB 1st and foremost.
Why did the Bengals draft Sample and Ossai?
Not because they could stuff the run in college

Teams are loading up on pass rushing DEs. The Browns signed
McKinely and Clowney to go along with Garrett.

Hubbard right now is a non factor when it comes to putting
The QB on the ground. 
The Bengals pass rush has been porous for years now. 
He needs to step his pass rush game up.
Hes not even being doubled teamed like a Garrett or a JJ Watt

[Shake n Blake]

(05-28-2021, 09:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: They wanted Guenther, he just wasn't QUITE as good as Zimmer.
He still never had a defense worse than 16th in Points Allowed. His worst Yards Allowed was 22nd.

I know one thing, Guenther beats the socks off everyone who has followed him.

He was competent at the very least. Can't say that about Teryl Austin or Lou Anarumo.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-28-2021, 01:36 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I know one thing, Guenther beats the socks off everyone who has followed him.

He was competent at the very least. Can't say that about Teryl Austin or Lou Anarumo.

Yep.

You don't realize how much you miss average until you have terrible.

[fredtoast]

(05-28-2021, 11:15 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Hubbard right now is a non factor when it comes to putting
The QB on the ground. 

No he isn't.  You can't just pretend that 2020 was the only season he has played in the NFL.

[impactplaya]

(05-28-2021, 02:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No he isn't.  You can't just pretend that 2020 was the only season he has played in the NFL.

Players by year 3 for the most part you can tell if they have 
It or not and what kind of player they will turn out to be.
Players are supposed to be ascending 
Whos to say he hasnt peaked as a pass rusher?
Look if he hits that 10 sack number this,year...awesome
It means the Bengals,offense is,clicking and teams are playing
From behind. 
Think about Trey Hendrickson had almost the same amount
Of sacks in 1 season then Hubbard has had in 3.
I just dont see any special pass rushing traits in Hubbard
Hes a all effort guy. He goes hard through the whistle
But other offensive line coaches arent in fear of his pass
Rush skills

[fredtoast]

(05-28-2021, 02:26 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Players by year 3 for the most part you can tell if they have 
It or not and what kind of player they will turn out to be.

Exactly.  And you make that judgement based on what he has done over the 3 years, not just one season,

If Hubbard has no pass rush skills then how was it possible for him to get 14.5 sacks in only 1300 snaps played over his first two seasons?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-27-2021, 08:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know why everyone is so down on Hubbard as a pass rusher.  His first two seasons he had 14.5 sacks in only 1300 snaps played.  He has shown he has the skills to be an effective, productive pass rusher.

Our D-line sucked so bad last year no one was getting many sacks.

And even if he is just "average" in pass rush he is one of the bestr in the league against the run, so that makes him "above average"

Hubbard is the best in the league against the run at his position according to lots of people, so elite.

Yeah, he is still a good pass rusher too, I think he will improve similarly this year just like he did against the run last year.

[Shake n Blake]

I don't know why, but no one was getting to the QB last year, so I don't hold last year against Hubbard.

He's shown in the previous 2 years that he has serious potential rushing the passer. Solid player in my book.