Brown Family Dynamics

[Daddy-O]

(07-26-2021, 08:22 PM)GodFather Wrote: And the lesson continues...  

Yeah, you fans wanted a change so we gave you one.  It's your fault we picked the wrong person.

The old accountability without responsibility adage.  What is wrong with us wanting a change after 18 years!

Man I wish I would have been born into an NFL franchise.  I could've not attended any schooling, never learned to read or speak and still made millions and millions of dollars.  It's dumb proof.

[*Nately120*]

(07-26-2021, 11:17 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't think it's an age thing. MB is just stuck in 1963 ! He's out to prove to the NFL world that Art Modell was wrong. His dad's ways were the best. He's gonna succeed old school come hell or high water. And when he does he's gonna rub all their noses in it. 

30 years pffttt if it takes a hundred he's not giving up.

Also, shouldn't running a business for 30+ years make you better at it?  I guess if he inherited a normal business in 1990 he'd still be selling rotary phones, laser disc players, and Turbo Grafix 16 games in 2021.  

He's from a different time, a time when success in business meant being decades behind your competitors.  Meanwhile young punks like Robert "rub n tug" Kraft and the Monopoly guy get all the sweet deals what with their skateboards and their hip hop music. 

[Sled21]

(07-27-2021, 09:00 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Also, shouldn't running a business for 30+ years make you better at it?  I guess if he inherited a normal business in 1990 he'd still be selling rotary phones, laser disc players, and Turbo Grafix 16 games in 2021.  

He's from a different time, a time when success in business meant being decades behind your competitors.  Meanwhile young punks like Robert "rub n tug" Kraft and the Monopoly guy get all the sweet deals what with their skateboards and their hip hop music. 

I wouldn't hold out Robert Kraft as some Savant when it comes to putting a football team together. His team happened to hit on the greatest QB to ever play the game in the 6th round. That's pure luck. And not only is Brady the GOAT, he is also seemingly beating Father Time, which adds to the luck. While NE may have had good teams during the Brady years without Brady, it is obvious they would not have been anywhere near the dynasty the were without him. He solved the Chicken/Egg (Brady/Belicheat) riddle when he took his Super Bowl winning ability to Tampa Bay and played the season, playoffs, and won the season with a fully torn MCL. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2021, 10:10 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I wouldn't hold out Robert Kraft as some Savant when it comes to putting a football team together. His team happened to hit on the greatest QB to ever play the game in the 6th round. That's pure luck. And not only is Brady the GOAT, he is also seemingly beating Father Time, which adds to the luck. While NE may have had good teams during the Brady years without Brady, it is obvious they would not have been anywhere near the dynasty the were without him. He solved the Chicken/Egg (Brady/Belicheat) riddle when he took his Super Bowl winning ability to Tampa Bay and played the season, playoffs, and won the season with a fully torn MCL. 

Even admitting the luck of getting Brady, it's hard to just "meh away" 6 super bowl trophies.

Though I can see Burrow winning 6 super bowls and people finding a way to deny the Bengals any sort of credit for it. 

But in krafts2 defense, that franchise was total crap before he bought them. Luck or not, the guy resurrected a franchise while our owner killed ours.  At least for 15 years.  

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-27-2021, 10:10 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I wouldn't hold out Robert Kraft as some Savant when it comes to putting a football team together. His team happened to hit on the greatest QB to ever play the game in the 6th round. That's pure luck. And not only is Brady the GOAT, he is also seemingly beating Father Time, which adds to the luck. While NE may have had good teams during the Brady years without Brady, it is obvious they would not have been anywhere near the dynasty the were without him. He solved the Chicken/Egg (Brady/Belicheat) riddle when he took his Super Bowl winning ability to Tampa Bay and played the season, playoffs, and won the season with a fully torn MCL. 

I mean, he doesn't exactly put a football team together though.  He pays others to do that, just like almost every other single owner in the league.

You can say drafting Brady was pure luck but I don't think that negates everything his franchise has accomplished.  He managed to keep him there for 20 years after "lucking" into drafting him.  He kept him happy enough to want to stay all of those years.  And they were smart enough to hold on to him when a lot of other teams would have handed the reigns to the younger Jimmy Garoppolo then stick with a 39 year old Tom Brady.

A few things things to consider...

1.) He bought the Patriots in 1994, well before Tom Brady or Bill Bilichick.  They were coming off 5 straight losing seasons.  They went 10-6 in his first year and went to playoffs for the first time in almost a decade.

2.) They went to the Superbowl in his 3rd year of ownership, without Belichick or Brady.

3.) His teams only had 1 losing season in the 6 years prior to Belichick arriving.  They posted win totals of: 10, 6, 11, 10, 9, and 8.

4.) He's had 3 coaches in his 25 years of ownership: Bill Parcells, Pete Carroll, and Bill Belichick.  I'm not sure you'll find an owner with a better 3 hires.  Those are all HOF coaches.

5.) They went 11-5 with Matt Cassell in 2008 with Tom Brady missing 15.5 games.

6.) Players have routinely taken less money to play there.  You can say that's because of wanting to win, and that may be true.  But that doesn't happen without also providing an environment that players seek out.  Part of that can be attributed to ownership and what they've created. (Ammentities, facilities, perks, relationships, hirearchy, etc.)

I'm not pointing any of this out to say this proves he's the greatest owner of all time.  That's kind of an impossible claim to prove.  But I do think it's completely reasonable to say that he's done an absolutely fantastic job.  You cannot deny what he's turned that franchised into, or ignore the turnaround they've seen from what he inherited.  What's been built there during his reign is nothing short of remarkable.  And I don't think it's any coincidence either.  The man spares absolutely no expense, manages to tow the line between being involved and getting out of the way, and the coaching and front office hires have been simply outstanding.

To simply sum up the entirity of Robert Kraft as lucking into Tom Brady seems incredibly unfair to me.  Whether you call him a great owner, or a good owner, you have to admit he's been the most successful.  And what else should a business owner be defined for if not for success?  He's clearly done a whole lot of things right.  You don't get the results they've seen without excellence from the top all the way down.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-26-2021, 10:25 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Ebenezer Brown. Just about every damn thing he's done has been the opposite of what he should have done. It's almost like he wanted to do it his way 100%, right or wrong, damn the repercussions or results. 

Congrats, Mike. You got what you wanted. Not that anyone would ever want to be remembered like this. 

I don't think it's hyperbole to say that Mike was/is the most depressing owner to have in any professional sport. Not only is he archaic and stubborn to the utmost extremes, he also treats fans and former players as afterthoughts. Also, he's incredibly boring and depressing to listen to.

Very unique guy, and we were "fortunate" to be stuck with him.

Name the owner and I'd probably rather have him/her. Look at Dan Syner. At least that guy spends and is willing to change coaches like a normal franchise. Pretty sure they also have a top notch practice facility and actual GMs. I could live with losing if it felt like ownership was giving 100% but just failing.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-27-2021, 07:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think it's hyperbole to say that Mike was/is the most depressing owner to have in any professional sport. Not only is he archaic and stubborn to the utmost extremes, he also treats fans and former players as afterthoughts. Also, he's incredibly boring and depressing to listen to.

Very unique guy, and we were "fortunate" to be stuck with him.

Name the owner and I'd probably rather have him/her. Look at Dan Syner. At least that guy spends and is willing to change coaches like a normal franchise. Pretty sure they also have a top notch practice facility and actual GMs. I could live with losing if it felt like ownership was giving 100% but just failing.

Yep. I've always wondered who i pissed off so much to deserve it. 

[bengals67]

First, I think and believe that Mike Brown is an honorable and good man

But how in the world can this guy be the son of the guy who may have been the most creative and innovative coach in nfl history ( certainly easily in top 5)

Is there any doubt why they have not won a playoff game since the father passed away?

Did Paul fire Sam or did Mike. Someone remind me. How much different could Bengals history have been if Sam was retained and supported by management. I’ll bet Paul liked Sam better than Mike.

[Sled21]

(07-27-2021, 08:28 PM)bengals67 Wrote: First, I think and believe that Mike Brown is an honorable and good man

But how in the world can this guy be the son of the guy who may have been the most creative and innovative coach in nfl history ( certainly easily in top 5)

Is there any doubt why they have not won a playoff game since the father passed away?

Did Paul fire Sam or did Mike. Someone remind me. How much different could Bengals history have been if Sam was retained and supported by management. I’ll bet Paul liked Sam better than Mike.

It is very easy to point at MB as the reason we haven't won a playoff game since he took over, because he is the constant. But, in reality, when you look at it objectively, the Mike Brown Bengals have put together a boatload of teams with the talent to get to the playoffs and win. Losing, once they got there, is on the coaches and players, not on Mike Brown, because he's not coaching. Now, some of it is just horrendous luck with injuries to guys like Palmer and Dalton, some of it is because the whole team came out and crapped the bed (think Chargers). I fail to see how lack of performance on game day is ownerships fault when you had coaches here everyone covets, like Zimmer, Gruden, etc. How many teams make the playoffs 5 years in a row? At some point, players have to perform on the big stage.

[bengals67]

Sled
Difference between winning and losing in nfl is a very slight margin.

Would our better teams gotten over the hump with a couple of quality free agents?

You might laugh but what about the positive impact of an indoor facility.

Would roster have been stronger and drafts better with full time scouts, the practice followed by every other team?

Maybe our playoff teams would have benefited from a linebacker who could cover tight ends.

Point being Mike’s administration has not been innovative ( like his father had been) or taken the extra steps needed to push the team over the top when they had the chance.

And if coaches were failing why weren’t they fired. Lots of teams would have dumped Marvin after the first two playoff loses for example.

There is a long list of other issues that maybe others can cite.

30 plus years in a league where each team has comparable resources and no playoff wins is a statement on organization and its leadership.

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2021, 08:30 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It is very easy to point at MB as the reason we haven't won a playoff game since he took over, because he is the constant. But, in reality, when you look at it objectively, the Mike Brown Bengals have put together a boatload of teams with the talent to get to the playoffs and win. Losing, once they got there, is on the coaches and players, not on Mike Brown, because he's not coaching. Now, some of it is just horrendous luck with injuries to guys like Palmer and Dalton, some of it is because the whole team came out and crapped the bed (think Chargers). I fail to see how lack of performance on game day is ownerships fault when you had coaches here everyone covets, like Zimmer, Gruden, etc. How many teams make the playoffs 5 years in a row? At some point, players have to perform on the big stage.

Either way, MB personally made his first 11 years in charge a total waste of time.  So it took him over a decade to assemble a team that could flop on the big stage due to bad luck.

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 08:54 AM)bengals67 Wrote: Sled
Difference between winning and losing in nfl is a very slight margin.

Would our better teams gotten over the hump with a couple of quality free agents?

You might laugh but what about the positive impact of an indoor facility.

Would roster have been stronger and drafts better with full time scouts, the practice followed by every other team?

Maybe our playoff teams would have benefited from a linebacker who could cover tight ends.

Point being Mike’s administration has not been innovative ( like his father had been) or taken the extra steps needed to push the team over the top when they had the chance.

And if coaches were failing why weren’t they fired. Lots of teams would have dumped Marvin after the first two playoff loses for example.

There is a long list of other issues that maybe others can cite.

30 plus years in a league where each team has comparable resources and no playoff wins is a statement on organization and its leadership.

Would an indoor facility have caused our players to put some effort on the field for the San Diego game? Would full time scouts have kept Burfict and Pacman from imploding at the end of the Pittsburgh game, because at that time they were a couple of the best at their positions? Would any of that kept Kimo from destroying Palmer's knee?  I want MB to retire as much as anyone, and I thought Marvin stayed longer than he should have, but the point remains. The Front Office assembled playoff teams with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs many times, and those teams just did not perform. Blaming Brown and not the players and coaches is lazy.

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-28-2021, 09:31 AM)Sled21 Wrote: The Front Office assembled playoff teams with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs many times, and those teams just did not perform. Blaming Brown and not the players and coaches is lazy.

The Front Office did not assemble playoff teams with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs.   You want to know how I know that?  Because they didn't go deep into the playoffs.

Conversations like this often seem like the blame game, or finger pointing, where there target is always moving just enough to paint the team in the best light possible.  You can't blame the coaches and players without blaming Mike Brown; he's in charge of those coaches and player. 

This isn't rocket science.  He's been the head honcho over a 30 year playoff win drought.  There is no explanation for that other then he's been absolutely terrible at his job.  It really is that simple.  I really don't think it needs any more explanation.  There are no excuses or rationalizations that are going to soften the blow.  He's been awful as an owner.

[jwalker3853]

I have to agree. Mike is the source of all of this mediocrity. His actions at the head of this franchise have had a water fall effect on not only the coaches but also the players.

I do think that we've had some teams that were capable of going deep into the playoffs - on paper. The problem is that none of the players really were held accountable or felt that if they didn't produce / win key games that there would be a negative outcome. They knew - based on past experience and observation - that win or lose, they would be back and playing the same position the next year.

The coaches didn't hold anyone accountable for their actions in any real sense either on or off the field. They knew that they would very likely be back and getting paid regardless of the outcome.

All of this comes down from the owner of the club - IMHO.

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 09:59 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: The Front Office did not assemble playoff teams with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs.   You want to know how I know that?  Because they didn't go deep into the playoffs.

Really? 

2005  11 and 5
2009  10 and 6
2012  10 and 6
2013  11 and 5
2014  10 and 5
2015  12 and 4

All those teams were good enough to win in the playoffs. They just didn't. That's on players and coaches.

For everyone looking back to the great eras with Paul, Wyche and Gregg

Sam Wyche Head Coach

1984  8 and 8
1985  7 and 9
1986  10 and 6
1987  4 and 11
1988  12 and 4 (Super Bowl)
1989  8 and 8
1990  9 and 7
1991  3 and 13

Forrest Gregg Head Coach

1980  6 and 10
1981  12 and 4 (Super Bowl)
1982  7 and 2 (Strike)
1983  7 and 9

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-28-2021, 10:21 AM)jwalker3853 Wrote: I have to agree.   Mike is the source of all of this mediocrity.    His actions at the head of this franchise have had a water fall effect on not only the coaches but also the players.  

I do think that we've had some teams that were capable of going deep into the playoffs - on paper.   The problem is that none of the players really were held accountable or felt that if they didn't produce / win key games that there would be a negative outcome.   They knew - based on past experience and observation - that win or lose, they would be back and playing the same position the next year.  

The coaches didn't hold anyone accountable for their actions in any real sense either on or off the field.   They knew that they would very likely be back and getting paid regardless of the outcome.  

All of this comes down from the owner of the club - IMHO.

Yep

He's the tone setter, he's been the captain, he makes the culture. Marvin said in that famous 2010 presser, "this is Mike's team, he makes the decisions" words to that effect.

I'm hoping that's changing but I still believe MB has an iron in the fire.

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 12:29 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep

He's the tone setter, he's been the captain, he makes the culture. Marvin said in that famous 2010 presser, "this is Mike's team, he makes the decisions" words to that effect.

I'm hoping that's changing but I still believe MB has an iron in the fire.

IF Marvin said that then shame on him as Head Coach, because it's HIS job to set the culture in the locker room. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-28-2021, 12:01 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Really? 

2005  11 and 5
2009  10 and 6
2012  10 and 6
2013  11 and 5
2014  10 and 5
2015  12 and 4

All those teams were good enough to win in the playoffs. They just didn't. That's on players and coaches.

They weren't good enough to win in the playoffs.  If they were good enough to win in the playoffs then, well, they would have won in the playoffs.  I mean, seriously, what are we even doing here?

Again, if you're blaming the coaches and players then you're blaming Mike Brown too.  He's was in charge of choosing those coaches and players.  If he had done his job better, he wouldn't have built a team where those people would have failed him in the postseason.

If you blame Marvin then you're blaming Mike.  He hired Marvin; he elected to keep Marvin for 16 years.  If you're blaming the players, you're blaming Mike.  He either specifically chose those players himself, or he chose the people who chose the wrong players.  No matter what route you take in the blame game, he's going to be at the top of the pyramid.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-28-2021, 12:01 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Really? 

2005  11 and 5
2009  10 and 6
2012  10 and 6
2013  11 and 5
2014  10 and 5
2015  12 and 4

All those teams were good enough to win in the playoffs. They just didn't. That's on players and coaches.

For everyone looking back to the great eras with Paul, Wyche and Gregg

Sam Wyche Head Coach

1984  8 and 8
1985  7 and 9
1986  10 and 6
1987  4 and 11
1988  12 and 4 (Super Bowl)
1989  8 and 8
1990  9 and 7
1991  3 and 13

Forrest Gregg Head Coach

1980  6 and 10
1981  12 and 4 (Super Bowl)
1982  7 and 2 (Strike)
1983  7 and 9

Uh. They can't be "good enough to win in the playoffs" if they didn't win in the playoffs. The correct phrase would be "not good enough to win in the playoffs". They were good enough to get to the playoffs, but that's it. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-28-2021, 12:01 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Really? 

2005  11 and 5
2009  10 and 6
2012  10 and 6
2013  11 and 5
2014  10 and 5
2015  12 and 4

Sam Wyche Head Coach

1984  8 and 8
1985  7 and 9
1986  10 and 6
1987  4 and 11
1988  12 and 4 (Super Bowl)
1989  8 and 8
1990  9 and 7
1991  3 and 13

Forrest Gregg Head Coach

1980  6 and 10
1981  12 and 4 (Super Bowl)
1982  7 and 2 (Strike)
1983  7 and 9

It appears you've covered every single year from 1980 through 1991.  But for Mike you've ommited 1992-2004 in it's enitirity, all of 2006-2008, 2010 and 2011, and all of 2016-2020. 

I would question why you've decided to do this, but I think we all know this answer.