Covid punishments....

[Big_Ern]

(07-28-2021, 12:27 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: No shit, Sherlock.

Handing out vaccine misinformation when you don’t even what a vaccine is, is like telling me which truck I should buy when you don’t even know what a truck is.

Nothing I said is misinformation and my original point is still valid. Now go write me another book report 

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 12:34 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The yearly flu deaths in the US vary between 12,000 and 61,000 for the past decade. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_influenza_statistics_by_flu_season

The reason COVID is considered so much worse is because the number of deaths is considered so much worse (10x-20x).
In 2020, approx. 375,000 deaths in the US had COVID as a contributing factor.
So far in 2021, another 236,000 have occurred.

That's quite a substantial jump over the number from the seasonal flu.

I dont disagree with that, as long as we can trust that all those covid deaths are actually because of covid, and we just cant right now. There is simply too much evidence to the contrary. And even if they are right, how may of them were needless because some people made poor decisions to put infected people in the nursing homes all over the nation? The very first real outbreak in my town actually happened in a nursing home of all places. Before that hit the local airwaves and newspaper, there were literally less than 20 covid cases in a county of way over 200,000 people. Then it hit one nursing home, then another, then another. At first it was almost like nursing homes were the only ones having outbreaks. It was pretty freakin scary to be honest. Like worst case situation type of thing.

[Whatever]

(07-28-2021, 12:03 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I personally dont believe covid killed nearly as many people as per reported. I would, but not when I have very trustworthy, honest people who work in hospitals who have told me directly that they were putting covid down as cause of death for every death whether it was covid or not. There have been reports of that everywhere, and I've heard it with my own ears from the people who work there and have seen it with their own eyes and have no reason to lie about it. They make nothing from lying about that, except maybe to have death wished upon them from certain folks of course. Unlike the pharm industry people and all the government peoples and doctors who get massive kickbacks from the pharm industry, one of the riches and most corrupt industries in the world. The folks getting very wealthy from this are the ones pushing the fear data. Doesnt that bother you even a little and make you wonder even at all? Do you really trust the pharm industry, biased news outlets and corrupt government officials so much you'd wish death upon people who dont want a vaccine for a virus that has a 99% survival rate? Just curious. 

You can't really say that the numbers on COVID cases can't be trusted because of the sources, then pimp the 99% survival rate that's been fed to us by those exact same sources.  You can't pick and choose which stats from those sources are credible and which ones aren't.

Survival rate is one thing, but hospitalization rate is another.  Many metropolitan hospitals have been forced to turn away patients due to being full because of COVID patients during the pandemic.  I personally think it's pretty f-d up that people can be turned away from receiving health care because people are taking up hospital beds for a condition that has a readily available vaccine that dramatically reduces the chances of hospitalizations, but people are going to do what they want to do.  Of course, those unnecessary hospitalizations also jack up the cost of health care for everyone, too.

[TJ528]

(07-28-2021, 12:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Not for nothing, but I don't know that Covid 19 does either. I know for a fact I have had 1 family member who died with Covid, but not from Covid, who was counted as a Covid death. That tells me when I see figures like flu deaths, etc., declining, there is some funny math involved, which tends to follow the money. Not that I'm downplaying the disease, but it's pretty apparent numbers are skewed. 

From my understanding, if a patient goes into the hospital and dies of upper respiratory issues and it's a COVID symptom it's marked as a COVID related death.   To me if you die of a symptom of a virus then it's probably caused by that virus so it should be reported as a COVID death. 

It's kind of like in my mind, when it comes to cancer.  Does every cancer patient die of cancer?  No they die of unlaying issues from cancer.  I guess the cancer numbers in our country probably are skewed too because cancer patient don't always die of cancer, but symptoms.   

Then again maybe I'm wrong because I'm not a medical professional so I try and stick to my own line of work where I specialize.  

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 12:52 PM)TJ528 Wrote: From my understanding, if a patient goes into the hospital and dies of upper respiratory issues and it's a COVID symptom it's marked as a COVID related death.   To me if you die of a symptom of a virus then it's probably caused by that virus so it should be reported as a COVID death. 

It's kind of like in my mind, when it comes to cancer.  Does every cancer patient die of cancer?  No they die of unlaying issues from cancer.  I guess the cancer numbers in our country probably are skewed too because cancer patient don't always die of cancer, but symptoms.   

Then again maybe I'm wrong because I'm not a medical professional so I try and stick to my own line of work where I specialize.  

In my relative's case, they contracted covid while in the hospital. They were never coming out of the hospital regardless due to age, organ failure, and what put them there in the first place. They were dying. But, since they tested positive while there, they were listed as a covid death. To me, that's a skewed statistic. 

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 12:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: You can't really say that the numbers on COVID cases can't be trusted because of the sources, then pimp the 99% survival rate that's been fed to us by those exact same sources.  You can't pick and choose which stats from those sources are credible and which ones aren't.

Survival rate is one thing, but hospitalization rate is another.  Many metropolitan hospitals have been forced to turn away patients due to being full because of COVID patients during the pandemic.  I personally think it's pretty f-d up that people can be turned away from receiving health care because people are taking up hospital beds for a condition that has a readily available vaccine that dramatically reduces the chances of hospitalizations, but people are going to do what they want to do.  Of course, those unnecessary hospitalizations also jack up the cost of health care for everyone, too.

That is a good point and the reasons I believe the survival rates is because first off its one of the only things most people agree on including the "experts". Also, I know a lot of people who had covid, including my now 98 year old grandpa, my 74 year old diabetic aunt, my 75 year old mother and may othr friends and family who many are over 65 and none of them died at all. I do know an older fella at my moms church who had some underlying condition was in ICU for a few days but he ended up pulling through. So in my circle there was 100% survival rate with people who are considered higher risk for complications. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 11:48 AM)bengaloo Wrote: I've heard that, and I've heard the opposite of that. What do we believe though? Thats the hard part. In the UK, its their actual government data that shows the delta cases make up almost all new cases, but hospitalization rates are basically flatlined down to near zero. News anchors speak differently about it however. Do we trust the government data that they list on their websites, or news anchors, or the WHO, etc? And its been this way the entire time. The story changes depending on which news or government people are telling it. Lots of misinformation and back tracking this entire time and that is a big part of the problem. Its dividing people to the point where you have people, including in this very thread who are wishing death upon others over all this, like grampholic basically did. I mean seriously, wishing death upon others over a vaccine for a virus with a 99% survival rate? This is how low we've sunk, forreal? Its sad to see. 

But to further drive home my point about the delta strain, the CDC director is now saying vaccinated people can get it, and transmit it whether they are vaccinated or not, and now its more of this, which is a direct quote from her PC conference yesterday “This new science is worrisome, and unfortunately warrants an update to our recommendation.”


So now what? The goal posts are about to move again, but the NFL has already put in place some harsh punishments for something they really know nothing about and everyone including the medical community is still learning about. Do they change the rules/punishments if it turns out Pfizer isnt effective on Delta? Does Pfizer not being as effective on Delta inspire more confidence for people to get another different vaccine for a virus that still has a 99% survival rate even after they have already had a vaccine for it that was supposed to work? I dont think it does for a lot of people. I think creates more doubt and less trust in "the science".  How about on the CDC website, it says there were just about 10k deaths the entire time from covid with people who didnt already have a serious underlying condition. 30-50k people die from the common flu every year. This is nothing new. 2018 there was a bad one. My grandpa got it and it was harder on him than covid was, and he's almost 98 right now. He survived covid and the nasty flu of 2018 that killed something like 80,000 ppls back then.  


The bottom line is that I think the NFL and many others are making way too harsh punishments for something they dont know enough about yet and for something they keep moving the goal posts for. Why not just cancel season and go hide in a bunker... 

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions

Looks like the hospitalizations are on the rise in the UK. Hospitalizations usually lag infection rates by about 2 weeks. Reporting infection rates lag what’s happening on the ground by about 2 weeks due to the time it takes to gather the information. Which means hospitalization rates reports are a snapshot of what was happening about a month ago. Same thing for deaths, but the lag behind the hospitalizations reports by about another two weeks or longer.

We’ve know that vaccinated people with break through infections can be contagious even before Covid-19. Same applies to vaccine preventable disease and their respective vaccines, but it happens at much reduced rates.

The Covid survival rate for your grandfather and you isn’t the same. Your 98 y/o grandfather’s risk of death is 600 times greater than a person age 18-29.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

You’re using stats without the proper context.

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid?country=~USA

Finally, yes, recommendations change based upon the situation. No different than if you’re driving through a thunderstorm or rounding a hairpin turn; you may have to adjust your speed for safety purposes. Or not and possibly crash and burn.

[TJ528]

(07-28-2021, 12:56 PM)Sled21 Wrote: In my relative's case, they contracted covid while in the hospital. They were never coming out of the hospital regardless due to age, organ failure, and what put them there in the first place. They were dying. But, since they tested positive while there, they were listed as a covid death. To me, that's a skewed statistic. 

Both of my parents spent a week each in the hospital in December.   Here we are in almost 8 months later and both are still having COVID related symptoms.   My dad was one of those people who didn't believe in wearing a mask prior to his hospitalization.  When I talked to him on the phone, he told me, "Son don't play with this virus.  It's nasty and will kill you" because he felt like he was dying.   They both have suffered cognitive and breathing issues since being released from the hospital.  

I guess technically when they pass we can say they passed of COVID because they have symptoms from having COVID. 

Not getting arguing with you because i agree I'm sure there are some skewed statistics but this whole virus and the way people are with it I'm just over it.  

[*ochocincos*]

(07-28-2021, 12:49 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I dont disagree with that, as long as we can trust that all those covid deaths are actually because of covid, and we just cant right now. There is simply too much evidence to the contrary. And even if they are right, how may of them were needless because some people made poor decisions to put infected people in the nursing homes all over the nation? The very first real outbreak in my town actually happened in a nursing home of all places. Before that hit the local airwaves and newspaper, there were literally less than 20 covid cases in a county of way over 200,000 people. Then it hit one nursing home, then another, then another. At first it was almost like nursing homes were the only ones having outbreaks. It was pretty freakin scary to be honest. Like worst case situation type of thing.

I agree.
It spreads very easily, and is often spread from someone who is asymptomatic or mild symptoms.
Heck, when this first started, a lot of people may have had it but thought it was something else due to similar symptoms as other viruses (cold, flu, etc).

There's no doubt that the vaccine is helping though, as those being hospitalized right now are 97+% unvaccinated. Also, the delta variant is worse and more contagious compared to the original strain from a year ago.

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 01:04 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/uk-daily-covid-admissions

Looks like the hospitalizations are on the rise in the UK. Hospitalizations usually lag infection rates by about 2 weeks. Reporting infection rates lag what’s happening on the ground by about 2 weeks due to the time it takes to gather the information. Which means hospitalization rates reports are a snapshot of what was happening about a month ago. Same thing for deaths, but the lag behind the hospitalizations reports by about another two weeks or longer.

We’ve know that vaccinated people with break through infections can be contagious even before Covid-19.  Same applies to vaccine preventable disease and their respective vaccines, but it happens at much reduced rates.

The Covid survival rate for your grandfather and you isn’t the same. Your 98 y/o grandfather’s risk of death is 600 times greater than a person age 18-29.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/investigations-discovery/hospitalization-death-by-age.html

You’re using stats without the proper context.

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid?country=~USA

Finally, yes, recommendations change based upon the situation. No different than if you’re driving through a thunderstorm or rounding a hairpin turn; you may have to adjust your speed for safety purposes. Or not and possibly crash and burn.

Everything about this post enforces why I think its not only premature, but also a bit harsh to impose such punishments for NFL players and teams. If the Delta hospitalization rates skyrocket, and death tolls start to rise, combined with the pfizer shot potentially not being as effective against delta, then everything is going to change again big time. I understand some rules and guidelines for the NFL, but what they came up with so far seems ridiculous at this point in time. Now also considering the fact that most NFL players are between the ages of 18-29. I mean it doesnt make sense. Most of the older, higher risk coaches, staff, refs probably already got the shot, I mean, I'm my grandpa's medical poa and yes I got him th shot even after he survived covid. I feel kind of bad now because he reacted badly with it. But players, the young, healthy and least likely group of people to get it, get it bad, die from it, etc are being punished for not wanting the shot? I just dont see how this works out well in the end for many reasons. I think its too early to put those kind of harsh punishments in place where a whole team is punished because one player for something we still dont fully understand or how it will play out. Totally ridiculous if you ask me. Roger Goodell is an idiot. Always had been. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 12:03 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I personally dont believe covid killed nearly as many people as per reported. I would, but not when I have very trustworthy, honest people who work in hospitals who have told me directly that they were putting covid down as cause of death for every death whether it was covid or not. There have been reports of that everywhere, and I've heard it with my own ears from the people who work there and have seen it with their own eyes and have no reason to lie about it. They make nothing from lying about that, except maybe to have death wished upon them from certain folks of course. Unlike the pharm industry people and all the government peoples and doctors who get massive kickbacks from the pharm industry, one of the riches and most corrupt industries in the world. The folks getting very wealthy from this are the ones pushing the fear data. Doesnt that bother you even a little and make you wonder even at all? Do you really trust the pharm industry, biased news outlets and corrupt government officials so much you'd wish death upon people who dont want a vaccine for a virus that has a 99% survival rate? Just curious. 

How do they make money from listing Covid on the death certificate?

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

I’m going to repeat this; falsifying information in a patient chart or on death certificate is a criminal offense.

And there are huge rewards to whistleblowers. How many of your honest sources have received a reward for being a whistleblower? And if they haven’t, why not?

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 01:11 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Both of my parents spent a week each in the hospital in December.   Here we are in almost 8 months later and both are still having COVID related symptoms.   My dad was one of those people who didn't believe in wearing a mask prior to his hospitalization.  When I talked to him on the phone, he told me, "Son don't play with this virus.  It's nasty and will kill you" because he felt like he was dying.   They both have suffered cognitive and breathing issues since being released from the hospital.  

I guess technically when they pass we can say they passed of COVID because they have symptoms from having COVID. 

Not getting arguing with you because i agree I'm sure there are some skewed statistics but this whole virus and the way people are with it I'm just over it.  

And that makes perfect sense, but if you die of cancer, kidney failure, liver failure or other things you had, that were killing you prior to contracting covid, it's hard to see how that's a covid death realistically. Seems like "natural causes" has become a thing of the past as well.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 12:06 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Not for nothing, but I don't know that Covid 19 does either. I know for a fact I have had 1 family member who died with Covid, but not from Covid, who was counted as a Covid death. That tells me when I see figures like flu deaths, etc., declining, there is some funny math involved, which tends to follow the money. Not that I'm downplaying the disease, but it's pretty apparent numbers are skewed. 

I understand if you don’t want to answer, don’t do you mind if I ask what they did die of?

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 01:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I agree.
It spreads very easily, and is often spread from someone who is asymptomatic or mild symptoms.
Heck, when this first started, a lot of people may have had it but thought it was something else due to similar symptoms as other viruses (cold, flu, etc).

There's no doubt that the vaccine is helping though, as those being hospitalized right now are 97+% unvaccinated. Also, the delta variant is worse and more contagious compared to the original strain from a year ago.

I dont disagree with any of that. My soapbox on this topic is mostly the forfeiting games thing because of one player and the harsh fines (money hungry NFL). Covid we are still learning a lot about and have more mutations coming no doubt. I dont deny the shots can and will help, but they will probably need tweaked as mutations happen. I admit I worry a bit about the delta mutation. Until more reliable date is out on it, it just doesnt sound good. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 12:09 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: I know. Covid is very serious. All of this back and forth was from me saying covid will always be around. The other poster thinks vaccines can completely eradicate it 

For at least the third time, you really need to pay attention. I commented on herd immunity. I never mentioned a damn thing about eradication until after you brought it up.

[Sled21]

(07-28-2021, 01:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I understand if you don’t want to answer, don’t do you mind if I ask what they did die of?

Organ failure and old age, which was why they were admitted in the first place. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 12:12 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Exactly. The numbers are being skewed and have been the whole time. And I'm not a covid denier or anything like that at all. Ive just watched and listened to all sides this entire time and there are plenty of things that just dont add up. And its sad because this is human life we are dealing with. But money has more value than life to a lot of people in this world anymore. We should know the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth about something like this, but it obviously and sadly hasnt been that way.

Yeah, you’re not a Covid denier, you’re just claiming the numbers are inflated without evidence.

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 01:17 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How do they make money from listing Covid on the death certificate?

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

I’m going to repeat this; falsifying information in a patient chart or on death certificate is a criminal offense.

And there are huge rewards to whistleblowers. How many of your honest sources have received a reward for being a whistleblower? And if they haven’t, why not?

Dude if I worked in that environment I would whistleblow for sure lol! This is important stuff. We need to know all the truth and real raw stats with no skew, lies or corruption involved. Its the only way to know the right things to do. And my stance on this is not political to either side and my mind is open to being changed by more and better evidence. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-28-2021, 12:17 PM)bengaloo Wrote: The virus spreading through vaccinated people can also cause mutations. The vaccines can cause mutations. Evolution is a neat thing. Sometimes bad sometimes good but interesting nonetheless. 

Can I read your source that claims the Covid vaccines cause mutations?

[bengaloo]

(07-28-2021, 01:26 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, you’re not a Covid denier, you’re just claiming the numbers are inflated without evidence.

Its not without evidence. Ive heard plenty of people I know personally who work in hospitals say things, and I've read articles, seen videos floating around the net, plus what I've seen with my own eyes. I dont know to what extent and my mind is always open to learn, but I'm pretty certain the numbers are off based on the evidence I have seen. I could be wrong. On on hand I hope I'm wrong because I hate the though of everyone being lied to. On another hand I hope I'm right and this virus isnt as bad as some make it seem and mutations start getting weaker and less problem.