Bengals Cuts

[*pally*]

Antonio Phillips was signed to the Texans PS.

[HarleyDog]

(09-01-2021, 02:08 PM)pally Wrote: and in a totally unrelated note, he is Nat King Cole's grandson

[masonbengals fan]

(09-01-2021, 02:08 PM)pally Wrote: He was on 4 different practice squads in 2019

he stayed put with the Titans last season mostly on the PS but played in 5 games and did have a sack of Aaron Rodgers

and in a totally unrelated note, he is Nat King Cole's grandson

Now that's a background check. 

[Clark W Griswold]

(09-01-2021, 02:02 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: How the hell do you play for 6 teams in 2 years? Did he set a record?

It looks like a lot of off season/practice squad time. Just seems like a camp body type of guy so why claim him?

The CB McCloud has good measurables: 6’/190 CB who ran 4.37 at pro day. Was an UDFA of the Bills. He has potential with that natural talent.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-01-2021, 10:42 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: The problem now is the coaches don't use him as much as they could in the way that they should.

I'm sorry, but do you mean as a receiver?  If so, I think the coaches are very aware of how he handled the job last year.  I am curious how many times they will be lined up in 12 personnel (two TEs, 1 back, two WRs) vs. the Bengals supposed status quo of 11 personnel (one TE, one RB, 3 WRs).

I think they were going to use more 12 personnel to help the rushing attack but Uzo's injury early on put a stop on it.  The drafting of Chase doesn't prevent them from using 12 personnel, but it does seem to make it less likely.

One thing I (think) I know about Burrow:  He finds the open guy and that doesn't matter if if is Chase, Boyrd, Higgins, Uzo, Mixon, or even Sample.  If he is in a pattern and being covered by the weak spot of the defense, Burrow will spot it.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-01-2021, 01:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Only putting up 349 yards and 1 TD is not good enough for a 2nd round TE nowadays.
Fans expect the TE more involved as a pass catcher, so 349 is terribly low.

Sample was 22nd in receptions and 28th in yards.

Meanwhile, UDFA Robert Tonyan had just 6 more targets than Sample (59 vs 53) but had 12 more receptions (52 vs 40) and 237 more yards and 10 more TDs.

As such, many fans think that Sample was a huge reach, as there are Day 3 picks and UDFAs outperforming him as a pass catching threat.

Well, I can find an example of one UDFA that outplayed FIRST round picks for just about every position group.  Sample was not asked to be a receiver as much as a blocker, to which he was ranked quite well.  By the way, that 40 receptions in 53 targets led the Bengals in terms of reception %.

Green Bay's offense last year with Rogers is a laughable comparison to the offense the Bengals had last year without Burrow, an injured Mixon, a dead AJ Green, etc.  

Still, I hear your point, but right now, he does not "suck".  He is a reliable target when asked to be a receiver, and an above average blocker.  Give him this year and see where you rank him relative to all the TEs.  He might surprise you.  But he most certainly doesn't "suck".   

[*ochocincos*]

(09-01-2021, 06:26 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Well, I can find an example of one UDFA that outplayed FIRST round picks for just about every position group.  Sample was not asked to be a receiver as much as a blocker, to which he was ranked quite well.  By the way, that 40 receptions in 53 targets led the Bengals in terms of reception %.

Green Bay's offense last year with Rogers is a laughable comparison to the offense the Bengals had last year without Burrow, an injured Mixon, a dead AJ Green, etc.  

Still, I hear your point, but right now, he does not "suck".  He is a reliable target when asked to be a receiver, and an above average blocker.  Give him this year and see where you rank him relative to all the TEs.  He might surprise you.  But he most certainly doesn't "suck".   

He's good as a blocker.
I (and others) want the TE more involved in the passing game.
I'm not sold that Sample is good in the passing game because he's been lackluster in that department from what I've seen over two years.

Maybe he surprises me this year, but when you're relegated back to 2nd on the depth chart when you're a 2nd round pick and entering your 3rd year, that's not great.

[Mobster]

(09-01-2021, 06:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He's good as a blocker.
I (and others) want the TE more involved in the passing game.
I'm not sold that Sample is good in the passing game because he's been lackluster in that department from what I've seen over two years.

Maybe he surprises me this year, but when you're relegated back to 2nd on the depth chart when you're a 2nd round pick and entering your 3rd year, that's not great.

How has Sample been lackluster? He looked good to me in just about every aspect last year. Good blocker, good receiver, made yardage after the catch.

Sounds like these dimwits who are judging something based on a stat sheet or some stupid fantasy football stats.You say he's no good because you don't think he's utilized enough in the passing game and other TEs put up more receiving numbers? You realize we had the worst O-Line in football last year and we're forced to keep the lone TE in to block and keep him close to the line, limiting his downfield opportunities and having to rely more on short stuff And TE screens on the rare occasions we were able to utilize him?

I don't see anything on film that makes me think he's not a really good TE

[*ochocincos*]

(09-01-2021, 08:41 PM)Mobster Wrote: How has Sample been lackluster? He looked good to me in just about every aspect last year. Good blocker, good receiver, made yardage after the catch.

Sounds like these dimwits who are judging something based on a stat sheet or some stupid fantasy football stats.You say he's no good because you don't think he's utilized enough in the passing game and other TEs put up more receiving numbers? You realize we had the worst O-Line in football last year and we're forced to keep the lone TE in to block and keep him close to the line, limiting his downfield opportunities and having to rely more on short stuff And TE screens on the rare occasions we were able to utilize him?

I don't see anything on film that makes me think he's not a really good TE

I realize the Bengals had a bad OL last year (not actually the worst in the league though) and that Sample was used to block a lot.
However, I am not in the local market anymore, I don't pay for NFL Sunday Ticket (too expensive), and I chose to avoid going to a bar to watch the game because of COVID.
I purchased NFL Game Pass and watched the games right after they aired live, up through Burrow's last game. After Burrow went down, I had 0 motivation to watch any game because I knew it was going to be bad.

With that said, I have to go by stats more than people who get to watch all the games.

Some stats that matter (to me at least):
- Among TEs with 20+ receptions, Sample had the 5th worst yards per reception at 8.73. Only Cole Kmet, Jacob Hollister, Durham Smythe, and Ian Thomas were worse.
- Sample had the 32nd most targets per game at 3.31.
- Sample had 435 blocking snaps per PFF. That's less than Tyler Higbee (541), Gronk (527), Jonnu Smith (444), and tied with Darren Waller. All of those guys had (significantly) more receiving production than Sample. 
- Sample's YAC per reception was 5.0, which is higher than the likes of Eric Ebron, Tonyan, and Logan Thomas.

So perhaps you are on to something that he could do better if he gets targeted on some more deeper routes. Maybe Taylor just needs to use him better in the passing game.

Ultimately though, I think Sample's performance as a pass catcher this year will determine whether the team looks for a new starting TE in 2022 or not, as Sample will have 3 full years in the league at that point and entering the final year of his rookie contract.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-01-2021, 06:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He's good as a blocker.
I (and others) want the TE more involved in the passing game.
I'm not sold that Sample is good in the passing game because he's been lackluster in that department from what I've seen over two years.

Maybe he surprises me this year, but when you're relegated back to 2nd on the depth chart when you're a 2nd round pick and entering your 3rd year, that's not great.

Remember that he was injured most of year 1 and  had a decent year in year 2 after being asked to be a little bit more of the passing game is several game plans.

The first Cleveland game he had 7 receptions on 9 targets, 2nd Cleveland game he had 5 receptions on 6 targets, Giants game he had 4 receptions on 5 targets, and the Dolphins game he had a perfect 7 receptions on 7 targets.  Aside from those four games, in the remaining 12 games he was targeted only 28 times.  That is less than 3 targets a game.  Hard to make much of an impact when you aren't part of the game plan as far as passing goes.  

My point is when he was involved in the passing game, he responded quite well.  

[*ochocincos*]

(09-02-2021, 10:51 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Remember that he was injured most of year 1 and  had a decent year in year 2 after being asked to be a little bit more of the passing game is several game plans.

The first Cleveland game he had 7 receptions on 9 targets, 2nd Cleveland game he had 5 receptions on 6 targets, Giants game he had 4 receptions on 5 targets, and the Dolphins game he had a perfect 7 receptions on 7 targets.  Aside from those four games, in the remaining 12 games he was targeted only 28 times.  That is less than 3 targets a game.  Hard to make much of an impact when you aren't part of the game plan as far as passing goes.  

My point is when he was involved in the passing game, he responded quite well.  

But why was he only targeted 3 times per game in those games?
Is it because he wasn't getting open?
Is it because he wasn't running deep enough routes and the team needed to get more yards?

If it's because he wasn't really getting open, that's on him.
If he's not running deep enough routes, that's on Taylor for sending him on such short routes.
We know he has decent speed for a TE (4.71 40, 7.15 shuttle, 4.31 3-cone).

Like I said, if he gets more involved and produces in the passing game, great. But if he doesn't, he really wasn't worth such a high pick IMO.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-02-2021, 11:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: But why was he only targeted 3 times per game in those games?
Is it because he wasn't getting open?
Is it because he wasn't running deep enough routes and the team needed to get more yards?

If it's because he wasn't really getting open, that's on him.
If he's not running deep enough routes, that's on Taylor for sending him on such short routes.
We know he has decent speed for a TE (4.71 40, 7.15 shuttle, 4.31 3-cone).

Like I said, if he gets more involved and produces in the passing game, great. But if he doesn't, he really wasn't worth such a high pick IMO.

He was being asked to stay in and do what he does best...block.  He can't go out for a pass if that isn't the play that is called.  If you recall, last year's line kind of sucked so I would imagine he was being asked to stay and help the OTs.  

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(09-02-2021, 11:39 AM)ochocincos Wrote: But why was he only targeted 3 times per game in those games?
Is it because he wasn't getting open?
Is it because he wasn't running deep enough routes and the team needed to get more yards?

If it's because he wasn't really getting open, that's on him.
If he's not running deep enough routes, that's on Taylor for sending him on such short routes.
We know he has decent speed for a TE (4.71 40, 7.15 shuttle, 4.31 3-cone).

Like I said, if he gets more involved and produces in the passing game, great. But if he doesn't, he really wasn't worth such a high pick IMO.

Drew Boylhart wrote that in his draft preview as well; he had an excellent catch percentage in college, but he was just never thrown the ball, whether he ran routes or not (and he was used as a blocker PROLIFICALLY, in college). It seems to be the same thing here, whether he's open or not, he doesn't get targeted too often, in comparison to other players. I'm fine with that though.

I have a feeling he'll be with this team for a 3rd contract (have said this before too), whether Zac is still here or not, as he's more of an old-school TE and they hang around for the blocking, leadership and the, "little things." (Mark Bruener, who actually went to Washington as well lol, Desmond Clark, Reggie Kelly, Steve Heiden, Robert Royal, Brandon Pettigrew, etc.).

[impactplaya]

A defenses most stressful or least stressful matchup when covering Downfield targets depends on the TE.
Drew Sample doesnt stress a defense.
He doesnt command a double team. So now
The defense can apply that double team elsewhere
I have rarely seen Drew Sample catch a ball beyond
Or around the 1st down stick.he simply lacks that
Extra gear to seperate.
If it is 3rd and 8...defenses will gladly let him catch it
And then proceed to drop him a few yds short
Offenses that can do what they will in the middle of
The field just dominate. It all goes back to the TE
LBers have to play back at a deeper depth.
Safties have to adjust their depth all
It eventually opens up the run game ala Cleveland Browns

Not having that seam killer at TE just puts more pressure
On completing the boundary throws to the WRs.
Drew Sample is a sure handed check down target
But you can ask him to run a post or out and up or even
A,backline endzone route.
He cant high point to save his life

[*ochocincos*]

(09-02-2021, 11:43 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: He was being asked to stay in and do what he does best...block.  He can't go out for a pass if that isn't the play that is called.  If you recall, last year's line kind of sucked so I would imagine he was being asked to stay and help the OTs.  

I've already provided the statistics on his blocking vs route snaps.

Sample had 868 offensive snaps.
He stayed in to block on 435 snaps (50.1%).
He ran a route on 433 snaps (49.9%).

He blocked on less snaps than Gronk, Jonnu Smith, and Higbee, and same as Darren Waller.

Sample ran the 15th most receiving route snaps out of all TEs.

He ran more route snaps than:
Mark Andrews (701 yards, 7 TDs on 429 route snaps)
Jimmy Graham (456 yards, 8 TDs on 415 route snaps)
Tyler Higbee (521 yards, 5 TDs on 367 route snaps)

Waller had just 124 more route snaps than Sample (28% more) but produced 1196-9 compared to Sample's 349-1 stat line. That's 342% of what Sample produced on yardage on just 28% more snaps.

So once again, I'll reiterate he's not doing enough in the passing game for my liking.
I want a TE who is a good receiver.
I get you want to defend his blocking, but I want to see a more prolific pass catcher.

Maybe Sample gets there this year if/when the OL is better, but I haven't seen enough from him the past two seasons to make me think he's going to be a Top 10 TE if he just gets used more/different in the passing game.

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2021, 07:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I've already provided the statistics on his blocking vs route snaps.

Sample had 868 offensive snaps.
He stayed in to block on 435 snaps (50.1%).
He ran a route on 433 snaps (49.9%).

He blocked on less snaps than Gronk, Jonnu Smith, and Higbee, and same as Darren Waller.

Sample ran the 15th most receiving route snaps out of all TEs.

He ran more route snaps than:
Mark Andrews (701 yards, 7 TDs on 429 route snaps)
Jimmy Graham (456 yards, 8 TDs on 415 route snaps)
Tyler Higbee (521 yards, 5 TDs on 367 route snaps)

Waller had just 124 more route snaps than Sample (28% more) but produced 1196-9 compared to Sample's 349-1 stat line. That's 342% of what Sample produced on yardage on just 28% more snaps.

None of this makes any sense to me.  I have seen Sample block and then release into a route.  How is that possible if there are only "block" and "route" options?

We had 3 WRs with over 100 targets last year.  If we are going to have our TE get 150 like Waller then we are going to have to throw the ball over 40 times every game.

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2021, 02:51 PM)impactplaya Wrote: A defenses most stressful or least stressful matchup when covering Downfield targets depends on the TE.
Drew Sample doesnt stress a defense.
He doesnt command a double team. 

The only TEs who get double teamed are on teams whose WRs suck.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-02-2021, 08:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: None of this makes any sense to me.  I have seen Sample block and then release into a route.  How is that possible if there are only "block" and "route" options?

We had 3 WRs with over 100 targets last year.  If we are going to have our TE get 150 like Waller then we are going to have to throw the ball over 40 times every game.

I'm going off of PFF snap designations. I am not sure what they designate as blocking then going into a route - a block or a route.

[Amalone002]

Anyone else not happy that Apple didn't seem to have to earn his way onto the team? Didn't even have to play preseason to get his spot. I'm hearing he will start in place of waynes.

[fredtoast]

(09-03-2021, 07:43 AM)Amalone002 Wrote: Anyone else not happy that Apple didn't seem to have to earn his way onto the team? Didn't even have to play preseason to get his spot. I'm hearing he will start in place of waynes.

Coaches see a hundred times more reps in practice than in preseason games.