QBs over Burrow

[LSUfaninTN]

(10-18-2021, 10:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nobody, Mahomes is great, Murray is playing great same with Dak and Josh but I think Burrow can be even better once he gets it all
together. He is making mistakes here and there and he will learn and then watch the **** out...

I'd take Mahomes and no one else over Burrow. Lamar Jackson aces the eye test more than Burrow, but as far as efficiency and stats go, Burrow slays him. 

[SunsetBengal]

(10-19-2021, 07:23 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: Mahomes, Allen and Jackson. I am a fan of Lamar and he gets little respect. He is a five tool quarterback.

Really?  Can you explain those "5 tools" that you speak of?

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-18-2021, 10:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Before we found out Watson was a perv I suggested trading JB for him. It appears one of those few times bfine didn't get it right.

So the question is:

Economics aside which young QB(s) would you take over JB.

The above poll allows you to vote for up to 3.

I never like comparing QBs at their 2nd or 3rd year even.  They all come in to very different situations and coaching.  

Mahommes had a year to learn and plays for Andy Reid with the best (IMHO) WR in the game and the best (IMHO) TE in the game.  He has been amazing but this year it is as though the entire team is bored and only starts to get really in to the game when they are trailing late.  Based on resume, he is the best out there.  Would I trade him for Burrow today?  Even though I will be called a homer for this, I wouldn't.  We need to see how he plays when the cost of his contract impacts the roster even more.  We saw that he wasn't special when his line isn't special.  It is impossible to know this, but could he have done better with what Burrow had the past 16 games, if he didn't get to sit for a year, and had two straight years of no preseason to start his career?  I don't know.  

Jackson is the best pure running QB I have ever seen.  Never seems to take a big hit, either, which takes care of my initial "You can't run an offense like that for long" argument.  The biggest knock on him has been his ability to throw a team back to a win from behind, but he sure did that against the Colts.  I still like Burrow for his abiliity to read defenses and change plays.  Lamar is still living dangerously and one hit can change his career.  

Herbert is amazing in terms of his size, arm, and mobility but I have no idea how much of his success is the scheme from his coach and how much is his ability to read a defense.  He sure struggled against the Ratbirds.   Remember how RGIII was setting the league on fire his rookie season with the read-option but then when teams adjusted he couldn't?  I can't help but think that he might deal with some of the same things.  Goff got to a Super Bowl (!) under McVay but then struggled mightily as teams adjusted.  Still, he is a machine and hasn't had the most amazing roster around him.

Murray is a physical freak and can just outrun and outmaneuver in space.  However, I can't fall in love with a QB that is maybe 5'10" with inserts in his shoes.  I love to see him be successful as it shows how much a creative coach can do, but I feel like he is limited.  

Josh Allen has risen tremendously after his first year, which is a credit to him and his coaches.  He is, like Herbert, a physical freak.  Big, strong, fast, and has a cannon for an arm.  He is actually my favorite of the group so far.  I feel like he has a cupcake division with Miami and NYJ, but the kid got to the AFC Championship game in his 2nd season and while he has talent around him, it isn't as strong as the Chiefs.   His line isn't as strong, either.  

Would I trade any of them for Burrow TODAY?  No.  No one that played their first year had a better first 16 games than Joe and had less talent around him.  Now that we have a solid roster, we are seeing what the kid can do, and he is getting better each week.  

[Crow-Magnon]

Baltimore Ravens fan here (first post).

I can understand Bengals fans love for Burrow. I think he has the tools and skills to become one of the best QB’s in the NFL. Top Ten at least.

But I have to say that while I may be a bit biased towards Lamar Jackson, I really can’t get what he has to do to quell the constant criticism of his play. 35-8 as a starter really tells you all you need to know. A 5-1 start in 2021 with 16 (now 17) on IR does as well. The man’s a winner.

But this Sunday will be a good, early test for both quarterbacks who will likely compete against each other for years to come. Roethlisberger’s time has come and gone. Mayfield is going to be an average to below-average quarterback who sometimes shines, but Burrow and Jackson are going to be the face of the AFCN for (barring injury), a long time. It’s going to be interesting.

[sandwedge]

I'm perfectly fine with Joe!

[Sled21]

(10-20-2021, 10:49 AM)Crow-Magnon Wrote: Baltimore Ravens fan here (first post).

I can understand Bengals fans love for Burrow. I think he has the tools and skills to become one of the best QB’s in the NFL. Top Ten at least.

But I have to say that while I may be a bit biased towards Lamar Jackson, I really can’t get what he has to do to quell the constant criticism of his play. 35-8 as a starter really tells you all you need to know. A 5-1 start in 2021 with 16 (now 17) on IR does as well. The man’s a winner.

But this Sunday will be a good, early test for both quarterbacks who will likely compete against each other for years to come. Roethlisberger’s time has come and gone. Mayfield is going to be an average to below-average quarterback who sometimes shines, but Burrow and Jackson are going to be the face of the AFCN for (barring injury), a long time. It’s going to be interesting.

There's not many people around here that criticize Lamar's play. About the only negative comments around here have to do with how long he will last running the ball as often as he does.

[Crow-Magnon]

(10-20-2021, 12:09 PM)Sled21 Wrote: There's not many people around here that criticize Lamar's play. About the only negative comments around here have to do with how long he will last running the ball as often as he does.

That’s more of an overall statement than just Bengals fans. And he does run a lot for sure. But he rarely takes big hits and if he does, it’s mostly when he’s aware it’s coming. Which IMO is better than getting blindsided on a drop back. But…time will tell.

Regardless, I think we have many years of Jackson vs Burrow contests to look forward to.

[Chezaugie]

(10-19-2021, 10:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Really?  Can you explain those "5 tools" that you speak of?

Here are some of the areas (tools) Lamar excels:

• Competitiveness and leadership
• Toughness
• Pocket presence
• Field vision
• Scrambling
• Designed-run ability
• Second-reaction ability
  

These are just a few metrics that justify his number 2 ranking in QBR this year (per ESPN).

By no means do I believe he is the best QB in the NFL, however, a decent case can be made for a top 5 pick. Also, Joe Burrow may exceed Lamar over the coming years but, at this time, he is not there with no guarantees.

Here is a nice article discussing his climb in the NFL ranking as well as other QBs: https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-quarterback-rankings/

[leonardfan40]

(10-20-2021, 10:49 AM)Crow-Magnon Wrote: Baltimore Ravens fan here (first post).

I can understand Bengals fans love for Burrow. I think he has the tools and skills to become one of the best QB’s in the NFL. Top Ten at least.

But I have to say that while I may be a bit biased towards Lamar Jackson, I really can’t get what he has to do to quell the constant criticism of his play. 35-8 as a starter really tells you all you need to know. A 5-1 start in 2021 with 16 (now 17) on IR does as well. The man’s a winner.

But this Sunday will be a good, early test for both quarterbacks who will likely compete against each other for years to come. Roethlisberger’s time has come and gone. Mayfield is going to be an average to below-average quarterback who sometimes shines, but Burrow and Jackson are going to be the face of the AFCN for (barring injury), a long time. It’s going to be interesting.

I’d say a lot of it in this thread is probably more a lack of confidence in the Bengals being able to put Lamar in a position to succeed. If we had him most (probably correctly) think our FO/coaches would try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Jackson is going to be good for a long time unless he gets destroyed by injuries. I was definitely a doubter early in his career but at this point he’s made it, no arguing that. Baker doesn’t concern me at all and never did. I hope the browns pay him a ton of money lol… I think Joe is a perfect fit in cincy and for this system. Still has a ways to go but he’s already good enough to compete with. His ceiling is as high as anyones.

[Crow-Magnon]

(10-20-2021, 01:52 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: I’d say a lot of it in this thread is probably more a lack of confidence in the Bengals being able to put Lamar in a position to succeed. If we had him most (probably correctly) think our FO/coaches would try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Jackson is going to be good for a long time unless he gets destroyed by injuries. I was definitely a doubter early in his career but at this point he’s made it, no arguing that. Baker doesn’t concern me at all and never did. I hope the browns pay him a ton of money lol… I think Joe is a perfect fit in cincy and for this system. Still has a ways to go but he’s already good enough to compete with. His ceiling is as high as anyones.

I think your first paragraph is 100% spot on. I give major credit to John Harbaugh realizing what he had in Jackson and building an offense and game plan complimentary to his skill set, vs trying to make him into something he wasn’t. Not many HC’s would do that. If it’s not in their comfort zone, they aren’t likely to switch gears on a dime.

I don’t know enough about Zac Taylor to know if he would have made those adjustments mid-season like Harbaugh did (you guys would know that better than I would). At least I will say he went 2-14 and 4-11-1 in his first two years as HC, but seems to have done more than just rebuild a team that’s now 4-2. I see a culture change in Cincinnati this year. A change from “we think we can” or “we hope we can” to “we know we can”. That’s a mindset that starts at the top.

The Bengals may lose to the Ravens this Sunday (my pick is Ravens 30 Bengals 24). If so, they’ll be 4-3. Then they play the Jets (W); the Browns at home (W-they aren’t looking so hot anymore); Raiders (might be W or L); Steelers at home (W); Chargers at home (W- pound the rock); 49ers at home (W); Broncos (W- fading fast); Ravens at home (L-homer pick!); Chiefs at home (for now I say L but we’ll see if they struggle more as the season progresses); and at Cleveland (W).

That 11-4 and a possibility of either 13-4 or 11-6 depending on the two I see going either way. I think that’s a ticket to the postseason.

[Stewy]

Patrick Mahomes is the only one I would take over Burrow.

[Stewy]

(10-20-2021, 01:32 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: Here are some of the areas (tools) Lamar excels:

• Competitiveness and leadership
• Toughness
• Pocket presence
• Field vision
• Scrambling
• Designed-run ability
• Second-reaction ability
  

These are just a few metrics that justify his number 2 ranking in QBR this year (per ESPN).

By no means do I believe he is the best QB in the NFL, however, a decent case can be made for a top 5 pick. Also, Joe Burrow may exceed Lamar over the coming years but, at this time, he is not there with no guarantees.

Here is a nice article discussing his climb in the NFL ranking as well as other QBs: https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-quarterback-rankings/

I realize you gave other/more information, but QBR is a big pile of horse dung.  Piling a bunch of subjective "next gen stats" together does not tighten the validation of the metric, but broadens the uncertainty.  It is more subjective than PFF ratings.

[Stewy]

(10-20-2021, 10:49 AM)Crow-Magnon Wrote: Baltimore Ravens fan here (first post).

I can understand Bengals fans love for Burrow. I think he has the tools and skills to become one of the best QB’s in the NFL. Top Ten at least.

But I have to say that while I may be a bit biased towards Lamar Jackson, I really can’t get what he has to do to quell the constant criticism of his play. 35-8 as a starter really tells you all you need to know. A 5-1 start in 2021 with 16 (now 17) on IR does as well. The man’s a winner.

But this Sunday will be a good, early test for both quarterbacks who will likely compete against each other for years to come. Roethlisberger’s time has come and gone. Mayfield is going to be an average to below-average quarterback who sometimes shines, but Burrow and Jackson are going to be the face of the AFCN for (barring injury), a long time. It’s going to be interesting.

My problem with Lamar is that he's living on bored time.   As soon a he loses a step, he'll start getting hit more, which will make him lose more steps, and eventually have only above average mobility as opposed to league best QB feet.

His accomplishments do speak for themselves, but he's 1 injury away from just being a guy who relies upon his drop back and then he's done.  Love watching him.  Always did.  Just don't want him as my QB.

[grampahol]

None of them, but that said I would have taken Lamar over Billy Price and still would..

[GodFather]

Remember when Tua was all the talk also during the Burrow draft? He was a serious bust for the Dolphins.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-20-2021, 10:49 AM)Crow-Magnon Wrote: Baltimore Ravens fan here (first post).

I can understand Bengals fans love for Burrow. I think he has the tools and skills to become one of the best QB’s in the NFL. Top Ten at least.

But I have to say that while I may be a bit biased towards Lamar Jackson, I really can’t get what he has to do to quell the constant criticism of his play. 35-8 as a starter really tells you all you need to know. A 5-1 start in 2021 with 16 (now 17) on IR does as well. The man’s a winner.

But this Sunday will be a good, early test for both quarterbacks who will likely compete against each other for years to come. Roethlisberger’s time has come and gone. Mayfield is going to be an average to below-average quarterback who sometimes shines, but Burrow and Jackson are going to be the face of the AFCN for (barring injury), a long time. It’s going to be interesting.

Basically, he has to quit running so much (not my personal thought, but I think that matters to some).
Some people feel that he's a much less effective QB if he can't run, and running increases risk of injury.
It's more of an old-school thought process, but he's not come close to throwing for 4000 yards in a season, which has been a benchmark for years with QBs.

I think in general it's a dislike for true dual-threat QBs succeeding in the NFL because they want their QB to throw and the RB to rush.

I think he's a special talent, he's just a very different style than what most fans are accustomed to and they don't think he can succeed long-term.

[Crow-Magnon]

(10-20-2021, 05:34 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Basically, he has to quit running so much (not my personal thought, but I think that matters to some).
Some people feel that he's a much less effective QB if he can't run, and running increases risk of injury.
It's more of an old-school thought process, but he's not come close to throwing for 4000 yards in a season, which has been a benchmark for years with QBs.

I think in general it's a dislike for true dual-threat QBs succeeding in the NFL because they want their QB to throw and the RB to rush.

I think he's a special talent, he's just a very different style than what most fans are accustomed to and they don't think he can succeed long-term.

I’m not disagreeing with you in the slightest. I just think it’s insanity to heap so much criticism on a quarterback (who also rushes like no other) that’s gone 35-8, reached the highest number of wins for a QB before the age of 25, reached the post-season in his first three years, shattered the single season rushing record for a quarterback, been voted MVP and is going to set numerous other records… for which he cares not one iota. All he wants to do is win. Every game. Every time. He plays like a kid who loves what he does. And on top of that, he’s humble, a self-critic, a true motivator and a leader.

What more could you ask for?

[Bengalfan4life27c]

A justifiable criticism of Lamar is best d is 15th ranked Vegas and lost. 17th ranked Colts took them to brink. thing saving ravens is number 1 specialteams unit.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-19-2021, 08:14 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The Chargers have played the 6th hardest SoS so far this year.
The Bengals have played the 26th hardest SoS so far this year. 

That's even more telling. Does anyone doubt that numbers would be better than they currently are if a QB got to play the Lions and Jags instead of the Ravens and Cowboys?

Sos doesn't matter as much as what defenses each of them faced.

Average rank of pass defenses Burrow has faced: 14.8
Average rank of pass defenses Herbert has faced: 22.0

Yet Burrow has posted better numbers.

To be fair, I personally think the better stat to judge a pass defense is passer rating allowed, and by that metric, Herbert has faced tougher defenses, but only by a very slight margin (20.7 avg rank for Burrow, 17.7 avg rank for Herbert).

[Shake n Blake]

(10-20-2021, 10:49 AM)Crow-Magnon Wrote: Baltimore Ravens fan here (first post).

I can understand Bengals fans love for Burrow. I think he has the tools and skills to become one of the best QB’s in the NFL. Top Ten at least.

But I have to say that while I may be a bit biased towards Lamar Jackson, I really can’t get what he has to do to quell the constant criticism of his play. 35-8 as a starter really tells you all you need to know. A 5-1 start in 2021 with 16 (now 17) on IR does as well. The man’s a winner.

But this Sunday will be a good, early test for both quarterbacks who will likely compete against each other for years to come. Roethlisberger’s time has come and gone. Mayfield is going to be an average to below-average quarterback who sometimes shines, but Burrow and Jackson are going to be the face of the AFCN for (barring injury), a long time. It’s going to be interesting.

I can only speak for myself, but...

1. He seems to get "exposed" in the playoffs, where he has a 1-3 record with 3 TDs to 5 picks and a 68.3 passer rating. We had a similar issue with Andy Dalton, but unlike Dalton, Lamar plays for a HC with an excellent track record in the playoffs, and getting the most out of QBs and players in general in the postseason.

2. He didn't set the world on fire with his passing last year. He was solid, but doesn't seem like a guy who is going to consistently beat teams with his arm alone.

3. He runs. A lot. QBs like that never last long. Cam Newton is the latest example.

I like Lamar. I'm sure he's a very exciting player to watch every week. I just prefer pocket guys, and I do have questions about why he struggles so much in January.