Taylor, Tobin and the Draft

[WeezyBengal]

Is this serious?

We drafted Williams, Burrow, and Chase in the top 10 the past three years. Any idiot could have pulled the trigger on those picks - they were complete gimmes. And don't tell me the decision to take Chase over Sewell was Tobin's and Taylor's, because it was Burrow's.

We have two guys from the 2019 draft contributing.

We have three guys from the 2020 draft contributing.

We currently have two guys from the 2021 draft contributing. Carman and Ossai aren't "homers" just because you want them to be. Carman has actually been playing below average and Ossai hasn't taken a snap of professional football in his life.

The bulk of why this team is succeeding is because of Burrow, Chase, and free agents (Hendrickson, Ogunjobi, Awuzie, Hilton, Reader, Spain, Reiff, etc).

They've drafted some decent players the past few years (other than the gimmes), but I wouldn't say they've been great in the draft since 2019.

[BengalChris]

(10-27-2021, 08:32 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Remember all the years of everyone complaining we did not have enough scouts, Tobin sucked at drafting, and flat out missing on a lot of high draft picks (looking at you John Ross, Cdric Oggiboggi, Jake Fisher, etc)
Since Taylor came into the building and is working with Tobin:
2019-
1 11 11 Jonah Williams Offensive Tackle Alabama
2 20 52 Drew Sample Tight End Washington
3 8 72 Germaine Pratt Linebacker North Carolina State
4 2 104 Ryan Finley Quarterback North Carolina State  Swing and a miss
4 23 125 Renell Wren Defensive Tackle Arizona State
4 34 136 Michael Jordan Guard Ohio State    Swing and a miss
6 9 182 Trayveon Williams Running Back Texas A&M
6 38 210 Deshaun Davis Linebacker Auburn     Swing and a miss
6 39 211 Rodney Anderson Running Back Oklahoma  Swing and a miss
7 9 223 Jordan Brown Cornerback South Dakota State   Swing and a miss

2020-
1 1 1 Joe Burrow Quarterback LSU  Grand Slam homer
2 1 33 Tee Higgins Wide receiver Clemson  Homer
3 1 65 Logan Wilson Linebacker Wyoming   Homer over the center field wall
4 1 107 Akeem Davis-Gaither Linebacker Appalachian State
5 1 147 Khalid Kareem Defensive end Notre Dame
6 1 180 Hakeem Adeniji Offensive tackle Kansas
7 1 215 Markus Bailey Linebacker Purdue

2021-1 5 5 Ja'Marr Chase Wide receiver LSU   Grand slam
2 14 46 Jackson Carman Offensive tackle Clemson     homer
3 5 69 Joseph Ossai Defensive end Texas         looks to be a homer
4 6 111 Cameron Sample Defensive end Tulane
4 17 122 Tyler Shelvin Defensive tackle LSU
4 34 139 D'Ante Smith Offensive tackle East Carolina
5 5 149 Evan McPherson Kicker Florida      homer
6 6 190 Trey Hill Center Georgia
6 18 202 Chris Evans Running back Michigan
7 7 235 Wyatt Hubert Defensive end Kansas State


So in 2019 we missed on a 4th rounder and a couple of 6th and 7th rounders.
In 2020 every player has stuck on the roster and is contributing unless injured.
In 2021 every player has stuck on the roster and is contributing unless injured.

Same Tobin, same scouting room, same owner from the Marvin Lewis days. I think it's obvious what changed.
I simply cannot wait to see what they bring to us when we are drafting at the end of the round.

The entire team strategy changed. Mike Brown no longer overrules the coach's objections to the likes of John Ross and the team has spent more in free agency the last 3 season than I can ever remember them spending.

All of that is paying off. The 2019 draft was hardly a winner. The Drew Sample pick was awful considering the choices the team had. They could have traded up for a starting RT and not resigned Hart, or they could have taken AJ Brown, DK Medcalf or Terry McLaurin to fill that need at WR. But that's all water under the bridge at this point.

2020 and 2021 were both excellent drafts.

 

[felis tigris]

(10-28-2021, 03:09 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We have three guys from the 2020 draft contributing.

This might be a little uncharitable.  ADG is playing on 38% of defensive snaps thus far and 67% of special teams snaps. Solid contributor. - Double

Khalid Kareem and Hakeem Adeniji have both been on IR to start the season, but last year Kareem played 30% of defensive snaps and Adeniji had three starts in replacement, but the general expectation was an expanded (but not starting) role this year.  Both contributors. - Singles

Markus Bailey didn't do much last year, but has played on 67% of special teams snaps this year and he was always expected to be developmental to some degree - Walk


To stretch the baseball analogy to its breaking point, I'd call the 2019 Sample pick a "productive out" - yes, there's contribution; yes, it's something you can work with, but it's not what you were really hoping for.

[Sled21]

(10-28-2021, 06:25 PM)felis tigris Wrote: This might be a little uncharitable.  ADG is playing on 38% of defensive snaps thus far and 67% of special teams snaps. Solid contributor. - Double

Khalid Kareem and Hakeem Adeniji have both been on IR to start the season, but last year Kareem played 30% of defensive snaps and Adeniji had three starts in replacement, but the general expectation was an expanded (but not starting) role this year.  Both contributors. - Singles

Markus Bailey didn't do much last year, but has played on 67% of special teams snaps this year and he was always expected to be developmental to some degree - Walk


To stretch the baseball analogy to its breaking point, I'd call the 2019 Sample pick a "productive out" - yes, there's contribution; yes, it's something you can work with, but it's not what you were really hoping for.

Sample is doing exactly what he was drafted to do, be a blocking TE to shore up the oline. He was not drafted to be a pass catcher. People can argue he was drafted too high, and I might agree, but he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Did you not see him against Calais Campbell?

[felis tigris]

(10-29-2021, 08:58 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Sample is doing exactly what he was drafted to do, be a blocking TE to shore up the oline. He was not drafted to be a pass catcher. People can argue he was drafted too high, and I might agree, but he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Did you not see him against Calais Campbell?

This is really where I was going and perhaps I should have said "not really looking for in a second round pick."  I've no axe to grind with Sample as a player; by all accounts (that I've seen), he's doing what's asked of him reasonably capably.

... and no, actually I didn't. I'm in NJ and we rarely get Bengals games. I'm excited to be going to the game with the Jets tomorrow - first game I'll actually have been able to go to in I (literally) don't know how long.

[3wt]

(10-29-2021, 08:58 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Sample is doing exactly what he was drafted to do, be a blocking TE to shore up the oline. He was not drafted to be a pass catcher. People can argue he was drafted too high, and I might agree, but he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Did you not see him against Calais Campbell?

I feel like he turned a corner with that block.   Campbell has been playing on fire all year and is SO much bigger than Sample.

Both he and Usomah made some spectacular blocks.

[grampahol]

Glad to see a few people not completely down on Drew Sample. He reminds me in terms of how some fans act like old stone hands himself Dan Coats. Coats had a tough time making easy catches, but he did play that entire season with a badly broken thumb. Try catching a NFL thrown pass with a broken bone in your hand..Might as well be throwing the safe that lands on cartoon characters at him..

[WeezyBengal]

(10-29-2021, 08:58 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Sample is doing exactly what he was drafted to do, be a blocking TE to shore up the oline. He was not drafted to be a pass catcher. People can argue he was drafted too high, and I might agree, but he is doing exactly what he's supposed to do. Did you not see him against Calais Campbell?

The Sample pick has been a horrible one. We took a blocking tight end in the second round that we could have gotten in the 6th. The value for what it is was AWFUL. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-29-2021, 10:18 AM)felis tigris Wrote: This is really where I was going and perhaps I should have said "not really looking for in a second round pick."  I've no axe to grind with Sample as a player; by all accounts (that I've seen), he's doing what's asked of him reasonably capably.

... and no, actually I didn't.  I'm in NJ and we rarely get Bengals games.  I'm excited to be going to the game with the Jets tomorrow - first game I'll actually have been able to go to in I (literally) don't know how long.

Have fun at the game Felis Tigris. Should be a fun one to watch for us Bengal fans.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-29-2021, 11:51 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The Sample pick has been a horrible one. We took a blocking tight end in the second round that we could have gotten in the 6th. The value for what it is was AWFUL. 

I had Sample as a mid rounder, but I heard there was a team right behind us that was eyeing him in the 2nd.

We don't know how long he would of lasted so that is a bad argument Weezy, sorry.

He hasn't been a pass catching threat much at all but he is a damn good blocker and if you say he is a horrible blocker, well...

Once again, you are wrong.

[Tomcat]

(10-29-2021, 03:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I had Sample as a mid rounder, but I heard there was a team right behind us that was eyeing him in the 2nd.

We don't know how long he would of lasted so that is a bad argument Weezy, sorry.

He hasn't been a pass catching threat much at all but he is a damn good blocker and if you say he is a horrible blocker, well...

Once again, you are wrong.

Blocking TE are a dime a dozen in the Big Ten, especially at OSU the last couple of years! Bad 2nd round pick.

[Tomkat]

(10-29-2021, 03:37 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Blocking TE are a dime a dozen in the Big Ten, especially at OSU the last couple of years! Bad 2nd round pick.

Change your username!!! 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-29-2021, 03:37 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Blocking TE are a dime a dozen in the Big Ten, especially at OSU the last couple of years! Bad 2nd round pick.

Eh, he is better than an average blocking TE. I agree it was a reach. People need to get over it. If we flipped Pratt and Sample
and just drafted anyone besides Finley that draft would of looked much better. Have to look at a Draft as a whole not necessarily
where they are picked. Finley was a bad pick, at least Sample is contributing, he was blocking Calais Campbell well last Sunday
for heck sake.

(10-29-2021, 03:48 PM)Tomkat Wrote: Change your username!!! 

We can tell the difference bro lol

[fredtoast]

Even the best teams miss on high draft picks from time to time. The draft is more of a crap shoot than most people want to admit. But when most teams "miss" on a first round pick it often means he just becomes an average starter instead of a star. Having a 4 year stretch where our first round picks included Ogbuehi, Ross, and Price just killed this team. There is no way you can recover from that without signing some high level free agents which we never did.

I don't know if it is better scouting or just luck turning back in our favor, but if Jonah stays healthy our last three first round picks are the cornerstone of our offense for years to come.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-29-2021, 05:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even the best teams miss on high draft picks from time to time.  The draft is more of a crap shoot than most people want to admit. But when most teams "miss" on a first round pick it often means he just becomes an average starter instead of a star. Having a 4 year stretch where our first round picks included Ogbuehi, Ross, and Price just killed this team.  There is no way you can recover from that without signing some high level free agents which we never did.

I don't know if it is better scouting or just luck turning back in our favor, but if Jonah stays healthy our last three first round picks are the cornerstone of our offense for years to come.

Nice post Fred, rep.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-27-2021, 08:32 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Remember all the years of everyone complaining we did not have enough scouts, Tobin sucked at drafting, and flat out missing on a lot of high draft picks (looking at you John Ross, Cdric Oggiboggi, Jake Fisher, etc)
Since Taylor came into the building and is working with Tobin:
2019-
1 11 11 Jonah Williams Offensive Tackle Alabama
2 20 52 Drew Sample Tight End Washington
3 8 72 Germaine Pratt Linebacker North Carolina State
4 2 104 Ryan Finley Quarterback North Carolina State  Swing and a miss
4 23 125 Renell Wren Defensive Tackle Arizona State
4 34 136 Michael Jordan Guard Ohio State    Swing and a miss
6 9 182 Trayveon Williams Running Back Texas A&M
6 38 210 Deshaun Davis Linebacker Auburn     Swing and a miss
6 39 211 Rodney Anderson Running Back Oklahoma  Swing and a miss
7 9 223 Jordan Brown Cornerback South Dakota State   Swing and a miss

2020-
1 1 1 Joe Burrow Quarterback LSU  Grand Slam homer
2 1 33 Tee Higgins Wide receiver Clemson  Homer
3 1 65 Logan Wilson Linebacker Wyoming   Homer over the center field wall
4 1 107 Akeem Davis-Gaither Linebacker Appalachian State
5 1 147 Khalid Kareem Defensive end Notre Dame
6 1 180 Hakeem Adeniji Offensive tackle Kansas
7 1 215 Markus Bailey Linebacker Purdue

2021-1 5 5 Ja'Marr Chase Wide receiver LSU   Grand slam
2 14 46 Jackson Carman Offensive tackle Clemson     homer
3 5 69 Joseph Ossai Defensive end Texas         looks to be a homer
4 6 111 Cameron Sample Defensive end Tulane
4 17 122 Tyler Shelvin Defensive tackle LSU
4 34 139 D'Ante Smith Offensive tackle East Carolina
5 5 149 Evan McPherson Kicker Florida      homer
6 6 190 Trey Hill Center Georgia
6 18 202 Chris Evans Running back Michigan
7 7 235 Wyatt Hubert Defensive end Kansas State


So in 2019 we missed on a 4th rounder and a couple of 6th and 7th rounders.
In 2020 every player has stuck on the roster and is contributing unless injured.
In 2021 every player has stuck on the roster and is contributing unless injured.

Same Tobin, same scouting room, same owner from the Marvin Lewis days. I think it's obvious what changed.
I simply cannot wait to see what they bring to us when we are drafting at the end of the round.

Believe the coaches carry a lot of weight on who is to be drafted more so than Tobin.

Seems when Gruden came we hit a bunch in draft as well and then fell off after he left.  

[J24]

(10-29-2021, 08:33 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Believe the coaches carry a lot of weight on who is to be drafted more so than Tobin.

Seems when Gruden came we hit a bunch in draft as well and then fell off after he left.  

Nope Tobin is the GM of this team and is the one that makes most of the personal decisions.

[fredtoast]

(10-30-2021, 02:09 PM)J24 Wrote: Nope Tobin is the GM of this team and is the one that makes most of the personal decisions.

That is the was I see it also.

Not saying the coaches don't have a lot of input and influence, but the final decisions are made by Duke.

[Sled21]

(10-30-2021, 02:09 PM)J24 Wrote: Nope Tobin is the GM of this team and is the one that makes most of the personal decisions.

I don't believe for a second he does that in a vacuum. He has final say, but coaches get input. It seems he listens to this group of coaches on who they want to bring in and who they don't, both in the draft and in FA.

[J24]

Outside of 2015 draft Duke has had some really good drafts here. It's quite Frankly a place he excels at. The biggest difference right now with the team is what we're getting from free agency is much greater than it was between 2016-2019.
Reader, Chidobe, Bell and Hendrickson have all been home runs for us.