Burrow vs. Herbert

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 10:16 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Here's how stupid the "good game/bad game by the QB" is...

Chase hangs on to that one pass (ONE PASS), Burrows QB rating is 99.1 instead of 70.8 and he throws for 370 yds, 9.3ypa, 2 tds and 1 pick. 

And Burrow didn't have one damn thing to do with it being that different.

If Jeremy Hill hangs onto the football and we finish against the Steelers, Dalton and Marvin are probably still here.  Ok, maybe that's a stretch.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 10:20 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If Jeremy Hill hangs onto the football and we finish against the Steelers, Dalton and Marvin are probably still here.  Ok, maybe that's a stretch.

Yeah it's a stretch and it doesn't have any correlation to what i said. 

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 09:03 PM)Destro Wrote: Burrow was the correct pick. He is currently working with a bunch of issues on this team. Herbert is also a good player who entered a slightly better situation. Two more years and the picture will be clearer.

Yep.  I can vividly recall a time when it was a foregone conclusion that Carson Palmer was better than Ben Roethlisbeger.  Sadly, it didn't work out that way.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 10:22 PM)samhain Wrote: Yep.  I can vividly recall a time when it was a foregone conclusion that Carson Palmer was better than Ben Roethlisbeger.  Sadly, it didn't work out that way.

sHerbert isn't Ben-like, on the football field.

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 10:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: sHerbert isn't Ben-like, on the football field.

Exactly my point.

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 10:22 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah it's a stretch and it doesn't have any correlation to what i said. 

So what are you saying?  That stats are too easily influenced by plays that can come down to the most minute variations?  

(12-05-2021, 10:22 PM)samhain Wrote: Yep.  I can vividly recall a time when it was a foregone conclusion that Carson Palmer was better than Ben Roethlisbeger.  Sadly, it didn't work out that way.

Well we could always talk about Palmer and Ben switching teams and talking about how that would have changed things.  That seems to be the nature of this thread....sort of.

[RunKijanaRun]

(12-05-2021, 09:43 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Interesting, I want to know the details behind his take.

Dan Orlovsky wants attention

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 10:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So what are you saying?  That stats are too easily influenced by plays that can come down to the most minute variations?  

Well, i thought i was pretty clear about how silly it is to talk about how good or bad a QB played when one single play by another player on his team can have a drastic effect on what is used for the judgement. 

Jeremy Hill hanging on to the ball on one carry would not determine whether or not Marv was a good coach or whether he'd still be here.

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 10:34 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Dan Orlovsky wants attention

Does he hate Herbert or the Chargers?  Saying a young QB who put up a good stat line on the road and got a W by 19 points against a playoff contending team was "outplayed by a lot" is a take we wouldn't take kindly to, that's for sure.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-05-2021, 10:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well we could always talk about Palmer and Ben switching teams and talking about how that would have changed things.  That seems to be the nature of this thread....sort of.

Let’s not. There’s way too much living in the past on this board. We’re currently 7-5, and one game out of 1st place in December. Let’s focus on this current Bengals team, and not go strolling down memory (aka misery) lane.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 10:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Does he hate Herbert or the Chargers?  Saying a young QB who put up a good stat line on the road and got a W by 19 points against a playoff contending team was "outplayed by a lot" is a take we wouldn't take kindly to, that's for sure.

Maybe he saw a bare minimum of 3 passes that Herbert threw in the general direction of his 6+ foot tall wide receivers, who then jumped really high to catch and hang on to the ball. 

I'll give you this...that darn sHerbert is REALLY GOOD at throwing the ball high and near his wide receivers. I wish Burrow could do that. 

Can someone ask Mike Brown to draft some tall WRs that run really good so Burrow can do that too?

Wait...i wonder if Orlovsky was talking about the type of game by game, sustainable throws that Burrow made vs the throws that sHerbert made and came to the determination that throwing the ball up to your tall wide receivers isn't going to work week by week for the long term?

So uh, forget about asking Mike Brown for some tall WRs. 

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 10:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Well, i thought i was pretty clear about how silly it is to talk about how good or bad a QB played when one single play by another player on his team can have a drastic effect on what is used for the judgement. 

Jeremy Hill hanging on to the ball on one carry would not determine whether or not Marv was a good coach or whether he'd still be here.

Let me say that claiming that Marvin Lewis would be here for his 30th year is a facetious take, and even mentioning Jeremy Hill without damning him to hell is taboo on this board.

I'll say that the Chase TD to INT was unfortunate, but in my personal opinion any sort of "Burrow played well enough to win, save for some bad luck" goodwill went out the window when he threw that redzone TD.  I was ready for things to be interesting or even be respectable and within reach but (with bias) I have to say when you mess up on your own accord you lose some of that "bad luck" excuse you once had.

I know one game and one play and so on is very situational and things can go this way and that and have a profound impact on how things look, but still even switching that INT to a TD puts us in the L column and Burrow's stats behind Herbert's so meh...tomorrow is another day.

(12-05-2021, 10:42 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Maybe he saw a bare minimum of 3 passes that Herbert threw in the general direction of his 6+ foot tall wide receivers, who then jumped really high to catch and hang on to the ball. 

I'll give you this...that darn sHerbert is REALLY GOOD at throwing the ball high and near his wide receivers. I wish Burrow could do that. 

Can someone ask Mike Brown to draft some tall WRs that run really good so Burrow can do that too?

Wait...i wonder if Orlovsky was talking about the type of game by game, sustainable throws that Burrow made vs the throws that sHerbert made and came to the determination that throwing the ball up to your tall wide receivers isn't going to work week by week for the long term?

So uh, forget about asking Mike Brown for some tall WRs. 

Well, I do love to slag on Mike Brown's GM-ing so the idea that our stacked offense can't compete with the Chargers' WRs bailing out their QB would fit my schema. 

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 10:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So what are you saying?  That stats are too easily influenced by plays that can come down to the most minute variations?  



Well we could always talk about Palmer and Ben switching teams and talking about how that would have changed things.  That seems to be the nature of this thread....sort of.

This is exactly what I'm saying here.  I don't at all look at the game I watched today and see Herbert as a qb that's head and shoulders above Burrow.  He has two big veteran wrs that win a lot of 50/50 balls and was utilizing them well early when they were gifted with outstanding field position.  A couple of his big second half throws were to targets that didn't have a defender in the same zip code.  

To be honest, his pocket awareness looked horrendous for a big chunk of the game.  He lost huge chunks of yardage on more than a couple sacks and it didn't seem like he had a clue what was happening until it was way too late.  He stood there with a defender wrapped around hs legs, staring downfield while another defender came in and pasted him rather than getting rid of it to prevent the loss of yards.  That's all stuff people consistently kill Burrow for on here.  

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 10:42 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Maybe he saw a bare minimum of 3 passes that Herbert threw in the general direction of his 6+ foot tall wide receivers, who then jumped really high to catch and hang on to the ball. 

I'll give you this...that darn sHerbert is REALLY GOOD at throwing the ball high and near his wide receivers. I wish Burrow could do that. 

Can someone ask Mike Brown to draft some tall WRs that run really good so Burrow can do that too?

Wait...i wonder if Orlovsky was talking about the type of game by game, sustainable throws that Burrow made vs the throws that sHerbert made and came to the determination that throwing the ball up to your tall wide receivers isn't going to work week by week for the long term?

So uh, forget about asking Mike Brown for some tall WRs. 

Not to mention that the two big receivers are established veterans, rather than first or second year guys that are still finding their place in the league.  

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 10:43 PM)samhain Wrote: This is exactly what I'm saying here.  I don't at all look at the game I watched today and see Herbert as a qb that's head and shoulders above Burrow.  He has two big veteran wrs that win a lot of 50/50 balls and was utilizing them well early when they were gifted with outstanding field position.  A couple of his big second half throws were to targets that didn't have a defender in the same zip code.  

To be honest, his pocket awareness looked horrendous for a big chunk of the game.  He lost huge chunks of yardage on more than a couple sacks and it didn't seem like he had a clue what was happening until it was way too late.  He stood there with a defender wrapped around hs legs, staring downfield while another defender came in and pasted him rather than getting rid of it to prevent the loss of yards.  That's all stuff people consistently kill Burrow for on here.  

Other than the gameday doomsayers is anyone saying Herbert is head and shoulders above Burrow?  I'm just trying to see things from other perspectives here, but Burrow is in that position where hindsight says he should be head and shoulders above Herbert since we turned down multiple picks in order to take him over Herbert.

Burrow should be head and shoulders above Herbert, and time will tell but so far he isn't.  That's the curse of being the first QB off the board...you always have to be the best and you have to be better than the rest of the QB class in addition to "all the picks you coulda gotten if you traded down."

But again, I'm back to my habit of trying to explain dissenting opinion which makes me seem like I'm just being a sour jackass.  I'll just cover my ass and say Burrow at the moment has yet to live up to "Best QB the Bengals ever had" and "Shouldn't have agreed to play for the Bengals."  Hot takes, abound.

[impactplaya]

Burrows red zone INTs are starting to
Worry me a bit. A QBs 1st job is to.protect the football.
If a QB throws a 55 yd pass downfield and the CB makes a good play on and picks it.at the 10...ok its like a punt
But red zone INTs are absolute killers.
On.his red zone INTs JB isnt even getting pressured.
He has had time to set scam throw

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 10:09 PM)MasonDT70 Wrote: A good rushing game doesn't mean you have a bad passing game. Cowboys and Colts are successfully doing both. There's nothing wrong with saying burrow has been playing worse as of late.

Colts? Wentz only has less ints than burrow. Everything else, burrow is better than Wentz.

Don’t say stuff if you don’t know what you’re talking about. Wentz has had a ton of dink dunk game managing games this season like the one burrow had against vegas

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 10:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Other than the gameday doomsayers is anyone saying Herbert is head and shoulders above Burrow?  I'm just trying to see things from other perspectives here, but Burrow is in that position where hindsight says he should be head and shoulders above Herbert since we turned down multiple picks in order to take him over Herbert.

Burrow should be head and shoulders above Herbert, and time will tell but so far he isn't.  That's the curse of being the first QB off the board...you always have to be the best and you have to be better than the rest of the QB class in addition to "all the picks you coulda gotten if you traded down."

But again, I'm back to my habit of trying to explain dissenting opinion which makes me seem like I'm just being a sour jackass.  I'll just cover my ass and say Burrow at the moment has yet to live up to "Best QB the Bengals ever had" and "Shouldn't have agreed to play for the Bengals."  Hot takes, abound.

So...raw numbers and all that aside...i think Orlovsky--who played the position and probably watches more tape (differently) than fans do--is saying that 'in the art of quarterbacking, Burrow is a lot better than Herbert' based on the things they do on a play by play basis and how they came to do what they did. Too bad that doesn't determine the outcome of the game. 

To the layman, getting the job done "however you can" and posting better statistics, means the QBs are more equal or one is better than the other. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Please allow me to remind one and all before Joe Burrow’s amazing final season at LSU the consensus was the Bengals would pick Tua Tagovailoa. That was the hip choice until Tua dislocated his hip.

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 10:57 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So...raw numbers and all that aside...i think Orlovsky--who played the position and probably watches more tape (differently) than fans do--is saying that 'in the art of quarterbacking, Burrow is a lot better than Herbert' based on the things they do on a play by play basis and how they came to do what they did. Too bad that doesn't determine the outcome of the game. 

To the layman, getting the job done "however you can" and posting better statistics, means the QBs are more equal or one is better than the other. 

I get that.  Maybe that INT Burrow threw in the endzone just left more of a bad taste in my mouth than it should have.  I admit I was willing to call it a "bad luck" game by that point with the Mixon fumble and fluke Chase thing, but I just didn't see enough "tape" to erase that 19 point defecit and gap in stats between Burrow and Herbert.

If Burrow throws a TD there we can at least have some reason to say it was within a score and an onside kick and hey it was close and bad luck did us in, but that was a very not-flukey kick in the arse to end things.

(12-05-2021, 10:59 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Please allow me to remind one and all before Joe Burrow’s amazing final season at LSU the consensus was the Bengals would pick Tua Tagovailoa.  That was the hip choice until Tua dislocated his hip.

That makes me think of the times where a QB who is going to go #1 overall falls down the board and the rhyme/saying ends up looking absurd in hindsight.

Play dead for Ted(dy Bridgewater) comes to mind, but at least he went 32nd and has a career.  Fail for Cardale (Jones) is a laugh at how little that one panned out for anyone involved.