Burrow vs. Herbert

[Frank Booth]

(12-05-2021, 11:23 PM)Tony Wrote: Burrow is the most turnover prone QB in football.. I just can't get over that fact... He threw , what 5 least year? I think with all these weapons the Idea is they should be able to throw it all over the place and Burrow just isn't that QB. He needs balance... When Joe throws 2ints + a game this year they are 0-4... There was another stat when he has over 30 attempts they are bad too.. I can't remember the record, but it was bad..

Don’t throw 2020 in the Burrow wins loss column. We’re talking about this season. That 2020 team was horrendous and was asking Burrow to carry them with 40 attempts per game

Burrow’s only in his 2nd year. The o-line is bad. Everything will grow. Bengals are ahead of schedule. Burrow is still 11th in passer rating despite the interceptions. We’re all good here. The AFC is inconsistent all across the board

[Tony]

(12-05-2021, 11:26 PM)samhain Wrote: Stangely, I think most of Herbert's sacks were on Herbert just as much as their line.  When he loses yards, he doesn't half step, he moves backwards and loses chunks.  

A couple of Burrow's sacks were on blitzes where he was flat-out dead to rights from jump.  So was the one where Tranquil came up the middle and Hill was MIA trying to double team a DL.  

I can't wait to see Trey Hills PFF rating....

[Tony]

(12-05-2021, 11:27 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Don’t throw 2020 in the Burrow wins loss column. We’re talking about this season. That 2020 team was horrendous and was asking Burrow to carry them with 40 attempts per game

Burrow’s only in his 2nd year. The o-line is bad. Everything will grow. Bengals are ahead of schedule. Burrow is still 11th in passer rating despite the interceptions. We’re all good here. The AFC is inconsistent all across the board

He's young , that's the saving grace here.. I'm gonna keep thinking he gonna fix it, because that's just who he is... I love how he wouldn't come off the field at the end. He does all these little thing that make you wanna go all in with him.. Most QBs are coming out after that injury. It was swollen bad..

[samhain]

(12-05-2021, 11:27 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Don’t throw 2020 in the Burrow wins loss column. We’re talking about this season. That 2020 team was horrendous and was asking Burrow to carry them with 40 attempts per game

Burrow’s only in his 2nd year. The o-line is bad. Everything will grow. Bengals are ahead of schedule. Burrow is still 11th in passer rating despite the interceptions. We’re all good here. The AFC is inconsistent all across the board

Yeah it's tough to evaluate anything in a year where you're playing behind Hart, Redmond and Jordan.  That line ever existing was malpractice by this front office.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-05-2021, 11:27 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Don’t throw 2020 in the Burrow wins loss column. We’re talking about this season. That 2020 team was horrendous and was asking Burrow to carry them with 40 attempts per game

Burrow’s only in his 2nd year. The o-line is bad. Everything will grow. Bengals are ahead of schedule. Burrow is still 11th in passer rating despite the interceptions. We’re all good here. The AFC is inconsistent all across the board

This really can not be emphasized enough. We’re basically playing with house money this season. When you look at teams with young QB’s like the Bills and Cards it was year 3 when they really took a step forward. And those guys weren’t coming off major injury like Burrow was. Pleasant surprise this year. Next year big expectations. At least that’s how I see it.

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 11:19 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How many people are saying sHerbert is going to take the Chargers to the SB (at any point in his career), right now?

Some folks are saying it, but as much as we can talk about Burrow being saddled by the Bengals organization, Herbert is playing for a franchise that is historically a non-factor and their only SB appearance was 27 years ago and is regarded less as their crowning moment and more in terms of "Well, the Steelers SHOULD have been in that SB!"  Oy, that's got to sting.

Other than the fact that they've beaten us twice in 2 years, I'm fine with Herbert and the Chargers being good.  We have a tendency to get sick of all the focus being on the Steelers and Patriots and so on, so the Chargers/Herbert being good is fine by me.  Do I recall correctly that Herbert was considered a risk or reach for the Chargers?  Other than being linked to Burrow via the draft class thing, I could see the appeal in a besmirched new QB trying to unseat the old guard.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 11:33 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Some folks are saying it, but as much as we can talk about Burrow being saddled by the Bengals organization, Herbert is playing for a franchise that is historically a non-factor and their only SB appearance was 27 years ago and is regarded less as their crowning moment and more in terms of "Well, the Steelers SHOULD have been in that SB!"  Oy, that's got to sting.

Other than the fact that they've beaten us twice in 2 years, I'm fine with Herbert and the Chargers being good.  We have a tendency to get sick of all the focus being on the Steelers and Patriots and so on, so the Chargers/Herbert being good is fine by me.  Do I recall correctly that Herbert was considered a risk or reach for the Chargers?  Other than being linked to Burrow via the draft class thing, I could see the appeal in a besmirched new QB trying to unseat the old guard.  

Chargers fans and blogs don't count.

[*Nately120*]

(12-05-2021, 11:41 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Chargers fans and blogs don't count.

Ok, so no one is saying it and now Herbert has a chip on his shoulder to prove that dastardly media wrong.  Look out, world!

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-05-2021, 11:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, so no one is saying it and now Herbert has a chip on his shoulder to prove that dastardly media wrong.  Look out, world!

He's too laid back to have a chip on his shoulder. 

[Destro]

Hopefully Burrow can complete the season.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-05-2021, 09:00 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Do I think 148 yards on 29 attempts is good? Hmm there’s that word again, Context.

Seems to me that was the game plan. 20-29 is a damn good day completion wise. And when the raiders have a d-line(max crosby) who can get to the qb with the best of them, you tend to get rid of the ball quickly for shorter gains.

Also, like we all saw that game, Joe Mixon was DOMINANT. And so was the defense.

All you have to do is game manage at that point. Just don’t lose the game. That’s all burrow needed to do, and he did it

You keep focusing on numbers and continue to ignore the workings of that game

20-29 is average for Burrow this year...and when you're throwing so many passes at or hehind LOS, your completion rate should he at least that high.

Anyways, you seem to be missing what I'm driving at in your sensitivity to perceived Burrow criticism, which is...

(12-05-2021, 09:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Adding the "by a lot" seems like a stretch, but I'm open to hear the details.  But that could also be a knock against the Bengals as an organization.  Burrow outplays Herbert by a lot and still ends up losing by 19 points at home and having a crappy stat line?  Weird.

This is what I'm trying to drive at. How do we have 3 quality receivers who are inarguably better than Herbert's, yet our guys struggle to get open, while Herbert's guys were WIDE open.

IMO, it's scheme above all else. We're not fooling anyone. Chase shouldn't be completely shut down just by shading a safety in his direction...and if he is, why can't we find a way around that?

[RunKijanaRun]

(12-05-2021, 08:21 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: His Oakland performance was fine. His Pitt performance was good. It doesn’t pop out in the stat book, so of course you could use it for your narrative.

Burrow played well today considering the pinky injury, and the first interception was completely Jamarr Chase’s fault.

The stat book puts that int on burrow, when we all know that was on Jamarr chase

He DID NOT PLAY WELL.

The opening drive fumble - on him. He’s fumbling a lot. Getting sacked a lot.

He has no pocket awareness.

Took 2-3 bad sacks today. Takes bad sacks every week.

Never audibles out of a bad matchup.

Forces plays and forces bad passes.

And no, I don’t hold the Chase pick against him. Obviously.

He’s absolutely regressing. You act as though Taylor just decided he was going to have him play a game manager role against LV. It became a necessity because it he was off.

He’s not some waiver wire fodder. He’s a good QB. Oftentimes very good. But he’s not a star and has some really concerning trends/habits that he can’t seem to shake, and they limit his upside considerably.

[RunKijanaRun]

(12-06-2021, 12:59 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 20-29 is average for Burrow this year...and when you're throwing so many passes at or hehind LOS, your completion rate should he at least that high.

Anyways, you seem to be missing what I'm driving at in your sensitivity to perceived Burrow criticism, which is...


This is what I'm trying to drive at. How do we have 3 quality receivers who are inarguably better than Herbert's, yet our guys struggle to get open, while Herbert's guys were WIDE open.

IMO, it's scheme above all else. We're not fooling anyone. Chase shouldn't be completely shut down just by shading a safety in his direction...and if he is, why can't we find a way around that?

Scheme matters. And insofar as many of us disagree about who Burrow is and who is better between him and Herbert, I think we can all agree Burrow has a dork for a head coach/play caller. If he had a good scheme, he may well be a lot better than he is right now. No guarantee, but it’s not implausible. Taylor is horrifying.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-06-2021, 01:58 AM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: He DID NOT PLAY WELL.

The opening drive fumble - on him. He’s fumbling a lot. Getting sacked a lot.

He has no pocket awareness.

Took 2-3 bad sacks today. Takes bad sacks every week.

Never audibles out of a bad matchup.

Forces plays and forces bad passes.

And no, I don’t hold the Chase pick against him. Obviously.

He’s absolutely regressing. You act as though Taylor just decided he was going to have him play a game manager role against LV. It became a necessity because it he was off.

He’s not some waiver wire fodder. He’s a good QB. Oftentimes very good. But he’s not a star and has some really concerning trends/habits that he can’t seem to shake, and they limit his upside considerably.

The bold is just completely untrue. He won the Thursday night game against JAX with a big time audible. And that’s just one example. He’s very good at reading pre-snap defenses.

[Frank Booth]

(12-06-2021, 02:17 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The bold is just completely untrue. He won the Thursday night game against JAX with a big time audible. And that’s just one example. He’s very good at reading pre-snap defenses.

I already know what the argument is gonna be from kijana

“That was against the crappy Jaguars so it doesn’t count”

[Frank Booth]

(12-06-2021, 01:58 AM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: He DID NOT PLAY WELL.

If chase doesn’t botch that touchdown pass that turns into an interception, burrow finishes the day with a passer rating around 97-100

Just saying

[Joelist]

(12-05-2021, 11:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This really can not be emphasized enough. We’re basically playing with house money this season. When you look at teams with young QB’s like the Bills and Cards it was year 3 when they really took a step forward. And those guys weren’t coming off major injury like Burrow was. Pleasant surprise this year. Next year big expectations. At least that’s how I see it.

I'd like to believe it - I REALLY would like to believe it. I've just seen too many examples where the Bengals were "ahead of schedule" or "young but up and coming" but they don't ever actually arrive. 2011 is one example, 2005 is another. This is why the usual Bengals motto "wait till next year" rings so hollow - us long time fans know how it works - "next year" is always coming but it never really comes. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-06-2021, 03:02 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: I already know what the argument is gonna be from kijana

“That was against the crappy Jaguars so it doesn’t count”

The Jags that held Josh Allen and the Bills to 6 points? Those Jags?

[Rubekahn29]

(12-05-2021, 11:52 PM)Destro Wrote: Hopefully Burrow can complete the season.

This line definitely gave 2020 flashbacks.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-05-2021, 11:32 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This really can not be emphasized enough. We’re basically playing with house money this season. When you look at teams with young QB’s like the Bills and Cards it was year 3 when they really took a step forward. And those guys weren’t coming off major injury like Burrow was. Pleasant surprise this year. Next year big expectations. At least that’s how I see it.

Kyler Murray was a Pro Bowler in his 2nd year. His passing stats were augmented with 800+ rushing yards and 11 rushing TDs. 

Also worth noting that both Murray and Allen came into the league for their age 22 seasons as rookies. Burrow's rookie year was his age 24 season. He SHOULD be ahead of them in development at equal points in their careers.

My problem with this whole "schedule" and "house money" talk is it may be for Burrow, but it's not for Taylor. Nobody will say "Year 4, right on track!" with a head coach next year... the Patriots went from Tom Brady, to 8 TD/10 INT Cam Newton, right back to #1 seed in a span of 1.75 years. The reason the Bills were able to be patient with Josh Allen is because McDermott went 9-7 and playoffs with Tyrod Taylor in his first year, and his third year (Allen's 2nd) they went 10-6 and playoffs. (Side Note: I think 2020 might go down as Allen's peak. I think he's a little overrated.)