Burrow vs. Herbert

[Big_Ern]

(12-06-2021, 11:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes, Joe is 24. That has never been in debate. Congrats for stating it for the 4th time like I have ever said differently. He's in his age 25 season, though.

The way you and some magazine see it. 

[samhain]

(12-07-2021, 05:07 AM)Wyche Wrote: Those missed kicks though....


Any time a team turns the ball over four times, your chances aren't very good. 

I'm still putting those two losses on Joe, Sunday was a group effort on offense. He had really one bad throw, the end zone INT. There were several drops of very well placed balls. Hell, Uzomah has his own disappearing act thread, and SURE disappeared against LAC. GB he had a big part of, but so did our kicker, plus we couldn't run the ball for shit early on.

I think Joe Mixon's, or probably more specifically the o-line's success in the run game early on is a good indicator as to how the game is going to go for the offense.  I don't feel great about our chances if he's not gaining yardage in the first series or two.  This offense despite all of the weapons runs through him.  It was not reassuring at all to see them struggle against a defense that we were led to believe was garbage vs the run all week.  

I'm not sure what to take away from that but here are two hunches:

1: Despite being the Joe Burrow fanboy that I am, he's still not a guy that's quite capable of winning games by himself when nothing else is working.  When the run game stagnates and defenses figure out that they can pin their ears back and tee off on him, we have major problems.  That can be said about just about any quarterback in the league, but the injuries up front and frequent ineptitude in pass blocking don't do him any favors, either.

2: Although there are plenty of weapons, the offense still hasn't nailed down how to find the guy that the defense isn't prioritizing.  They are definitely getting there, but it's not quite perfected.  Some of that may be lack of protection or Burrow holding the ball too long.  

If they continue to be plagued by pass pro issues, then I hope they continue their offseason trend of building the offense through early picks and the defense in FA.  The final pieces on offense are a long term RT and a really good center.  Jonah will be up to get paid soon anyway, so drafting a tackle early would be smart regardless of whether it's viewed as a Reiff replacement or a future LT candidate if they move on from Jonah.  I wouldn't necessarily hand anything to Hopkins, either.  He's getting a decent contract and it wouldn't hurt to draft a younger, healthier, and cheaper replacement early to both improve in terms of talent and free up cap for the inevitable contracts that will go to the offensive weaponry sooner than we'd like to think.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2021, 10:19 AM)samhain Wrote: I think Joe Mixon's, or probably more specifically the o-line's success in the run game early on is a good indicator as to how the game is going to go for the offense.  I don't feel great about our chances if he's not gaining yardage in the first series or two.  This offense despite all of the weapons runs through him.  It was not reassuring at all to see them struggle against a defense that we were led to believe was garbage vs the run all week.  

I'm not sure what to take away from that but here are two hunches:

1: Despite being the Joe Burrow fanboy that I am, he's still not a guy that's quite capable of winning games by himself when nothing else is working.  When the run game stagnates and defenses figure out that they can pin their ears back and tee off on him, we have major problems.  That can be said about just about any quarterback in the league, but the injuries up front and frequent ineptitude in pass blocking don't do him any favors, either.

2: Although there are plenty of weapons, the offense still hasn't nailed down how to find the guy that the defense isn't prioritizing.  They are definitely getting there, but it's not quite perfected.  Some of that may be lack of protection or Burrow holding the ball too long.  

If they continue to be plagued by pass pro issues, then I hope they continue their offseason trend of building the offense through early picks and the defense in FA.  The final pieces on offense are a long term RT and a really good center.  Jonah will be up to get paid soon anyway, so drafting a tackle early would be smart regardless of whether it's viewed as a Reiff replacement or a future LT candidate if they move on from Jonah.  I wouldn't necessarily hand anything to Hopkins, either.  He's getting a decent contract and it wouldn't hurt to draft a younger, healthier, and cheaper replacement early to both improve in terms of talent and free up cap for the inevitable contracts that will go to the offensive weaponry sooner than we'd like to think.

Absolutely, 100 percent agree with everything you posted. I think he would've gotten off to a faster start if Trey Hill and Isiah Prince aren't starting. As the game wore on, those two began to play a little bit better, and just as the run game is getting warmed up, we fumble away our comeback. When there's no threat of running the ball, this line isn't good enough to consistently protect Burrow against defenses when they can just rush the passer. 


I also think we sometimes forget that Joe still hasn't played two full seasons yet. He does need to clean up those silly INTs though.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-07-2021, 09:27 AM)Big_Ern Wrote: The way you and some magazine see it. 

LOL. Tell me you don't even know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about.

It's no different than Week 17 this year being Jan 2, 2022, but it's still the 2021 season. Have a good day, man. Try to not yell at the clouds for being on your lawn.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-07-2021, 04:20 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: .....but he threw for 300 Sunday with a bum finger, scored two TDs, just had the usual head scratching INT he's been good for this year. Ja'Marr Chase was awful, Uzo showed up small, and Mixon had a meh day with a really costly fumble.

I'm not singling any one game out. I'll just say he had a 108.9 rating in the first 7 games, and an 84.9 rating over the last 5. If that isn't a decline, I don't know what is. I'm not saying he's regressed. Not saying he's a bust.

I'm just listing the stats and people can make of it what they will.

Personally, I think the problem is that defenses really solved the Chase puzzle fairly easily, yet we're still targeting him 7.8 times/game over that span. We either (a) need to find new ways to get Chase open, or (b) start targeting Boyd more.

Higgins an Boyd are doing fine. Higgins in particular has been exceptional.

[TecmoBengals]

(12-07-2021, 06:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We either (a) need to find new ways to get Chase open, or (b) start targeting Boyd more.

Regarding (a), it is interesting because as Mixon and Higgins emerge with big games, you'd think it results in Chase getting his chance to once again shine. I suppose maybe teams are still being stubborn and taking him away from the big play & we know he's dropped some passes.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-07-2021, 06:30 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Regarding (a), it is interesting because as Mixon and Higgins emerge with big games, you'd think it results in Chase getting his chance to once again shine. I suppose maybe teams are still being stubborn and taking him away from the big play & we know he's dropped some passes.

I'm more concerned that he can be removed this easily.

Chad and AJ also got extra attention most weeks, but they overcame it.

He's still very young though, and I feel Zac could do more to help.

[Frank Booth]

(12-07-2021, 06:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm more concerned that he can be removed this easily.

Chad and AJ also got extra attention most weeks, but they overcame it.

He's still very young though, and I feel Zac could do more to help.

Bengals don’t have to move Chase around because they have Higgins

If the bengals had only Boyd and either Chase or Tee, then yea, you’d have to move one of those guys around

But tee is capable of beating the opposing teams’s weaker corner with no safety help

[Shake n Blake]

(12-07-2021, 06:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Bengals don’t have to move Chase around because they have Higgins

If the bengals had only Boyd and either Chase or Tee, then yea, you’d have to move one of those guys around

But tee is capable of beating the opposing teams’s weaker corner with no safety help

In that case, we probably need to flip Chase and Boyd's target rate until teams relax their coverage, or Chase figures it out.

We can't keep throwing at a guy with a 51% catch rate on 5.23 yards/target. It's killing the pass offense.

[Frank Booth]

(12-07-2021, 06:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In that case, we probably need to flip Chase and Boyd's target rate until teams relax their coverage, or Chase figures it out.

We can't keep throwing at a guy with a 51% catch rate on 5.23 yards/target. It's killing the pass offense.

I care about the offense as a whole, and over the last 5 games, the offense has been good in 3 of those 5 games.

You can’t expect the offense to play well every single game. Even the 2007 pats had a couple weak offensive days.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2021, 06:26 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not singling any one game out. I'll just say he had a 108.9 rating in the first 7 games, and an 84.9 rating over the last 5. If that isn't a decline, I don't know what is. I'm not saying he's regressed. Not saying he's a bust.

I'm just listing the stats and people can make of it what they will.

Personally, I think the problem is that defenses really solved the Chase puzzle fairly easily, yet we're still targeting him 7.8 times/game over that span. We either (a) need to find new ways to get Chase open, or (b) start targeting Boyd more.

Higgins an Boyd are doing fine. Higgins in particular has been exceptional.

Oh, I didn't see it as you calling him a bust at all. He's put up some pedestrian numbers for sure, some due to what you say about Chase, and some because Mixon started rolling there for a while.

As for Chase, I gotta agree with Frank on that....

(12-07-2021, 06:45 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Bengals don’t have to move Chase around because they have Higgins

If the bengals had only Boyd and either Chase or Tee, then yea, you’d have to move one of those guys around

But tee is capable of beating the opposing teams’s weaker corner with no safety help

Good point, and Boyd moves the chains and makes tough grabs in the middle. I can't see moving him out of the slot either.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2021, 06:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In that case, we probably need to flip Chase and Boyd's target rate until teams relax their coverage, or Chase figures it out.

We can't keep throwing at a guy with a 51% catch rate on 5.23 yards/target. It's killing the pass offense.

On that 51% catch rate, how many of the misses are drops/INTs? You have those numbers? 

Another thing, I've noticed some sweeps, trying screens, slants to get him involved lately.

[Big_Ern]

(12-07-2021, 05:22 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: LOL. Tell me you don't even know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about.

It's no different than Week 17 this year being Jan 2, 2022, but it's still the 2021 season. Have a good day, man. Try to not yell at the clouds for being on your lawn.

Tell me you're trying to hard without telling me you're trying to hard. 

How old is Joe burrow?

Yes, in your second scenario you're proving my point exactly. You wouldn't call it the 22 season just like you wouldn't call Joe 25 when he's 24. 

Go read your magazine

[Destro]

Chase, Boyd, Higgins, Mixon, Burrow, Uzomah...not one is a bum. Very skilled "skill players." What NFL head coach would look at that group and be like "Yeah, probably can't win with them." Yet, we lose games we should win in ways we should not be losing. In my opinion, much has to do with our weakness being pretty bad weakness. It makes it difficult to succeed with those who can play great level football.

[Frank Booth]

(12-07-2021, 07:20 PM)Destro Wrote: Chase, Boyd, Higgins, Mixon, Burrow, Uzomah...not one is a bum. Very skilled "skill players." What NFL head coach would look at that group and be like "Yeah, probably can't win with them." Yet, we lose games we should win in ways we should not be losing. In my opinion, much has to do with our weakness being pretty bad weakness. It makes it difficult to succeed with those who can play great level football.

Uzi is overrated. Putting him in the same sentence as those other guys is ridiculous.

Secondly, the offensive line is important. Bengals don’t have a good line in general. A bad performance by the o-line can neutralize any offense ever.

Let’s look at the last 5 games:

Lose to the jets because the defense couldn’t stop a damn thing

Desperate browns come in and dominate both sides of the ball

Spank Oakland, Spank pitt

Mixon, chase, and 2 replacement o-linemen screw the game up against San diego

Don’t overreact

[Essex Johnson]

(12-07-2021, 07:26 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Uzi is overrated. Putting him in the same sentence as those other guys is ridiculous.

Secondly, the offensive line is important. Bengals don’t have a good line in general. A bad performance by the o-line can neutralize any offense ever.

Let’s look at the last 5 games:

Lose to the jets because the defense couldn’t stop a damn thing

Desperate browns come in and dominate both sides of the ball

Spank Oakland, Spank pitt

Mixon, chase, and 2 replacement o-linemen screw the game up against San diego

Don’t overreact

The overreact is maybe more a realism, this young team lead by ZT and Burrow have not developed that win " big " game mentality for the playoffs.  Two positions this year we were put in position to start to take control of wild card and possible division and both really were debacles.. Jefts and Chargers.  Now we are back to the trending water games of staying in contention.  If we are lucky again to get to that third "big" game mentally I hope ZT and Burrow can finally show they are ready.

[Frank Booth]

(12-07-2021, 08:19 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: The overreact is maybe more a realism, this young team lead by ZT and Burrow have not developed that win " big " game mentality for the playoffs.  Two positions this year we were put in position to start to take control of wild card and possible division and both really were debacles.. Jefts and Chargers.  Now we are back to the trending water games of staying in contention.  If we are lucky again to get to that third "big" game mentally I hope ZT and Burrow can finally show they are ready.

This is Burrow’s first full season

You are overreacting.

[KillerGoose]

(12-07-2021, 07:08 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Tell me you're trying to hard without telling me you're trying to hard. 

How old is Joe burrow?

Yes, in your second scenario you're proving my point exactly. You wouldn't call it the 22 season just like you wouldn't call Joe 25 when he's 24. 

Go read your magazine

Burrow is 25 in three days. I think the point is that he will be 25 before the season ends, which is why it is called the age 25 season. We may not call it the 2022 season, but we do call it the 2022 Super Bowl. This is a weird argument. The point of it all is that he will be 25 before season end. 

[Big_Ern]

(12-07-2021, 08:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Burrow is 25 in three days. I think the point is that he will be 25 before the season ends, which is why it is called the age 25 season. We may not call it the 2022 season, but we do call it the 2022 Super Bowl. This is a weird argument. The point of it all is that he will be 25 before season end. 

He's 24. Case closed 

[KillerGoose]

(12-07-2021, 09:08 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: He's 24. Case closed 

Yeah, right now, but no one is saying otherwise. In three days, he’ll be 25.

What exactly are you trying to argue?