Where is the Improvement with giving up Sacks

[fredtoast]

(12-08-2021, 02:52 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Only 1 player gave Whitworth trouble over his whole career and that was Dwight Freeney: in 4 career games against Whitworth, he got 6 sacks.

And Freeney was one of the greatest athletic "freaks" in NFL history.

Short and thick (6'1", 268) ran a 4.47 forty at the combine with a 37" vertical.

A J Green ran a 4.5 forty and had a 34.5 vertical.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-08-2021, 02:44 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Higgins Boyd And Uzomah and any of the RBs 
Are very capable of YAC and getting big time yardage
A simple 6 yd completion to a RB that sits underneath
Is better than a 34 yd pass that falls incomplete. 
Take what the defenses gives you
Manning and Brady have HOF busts based on that

Yessir, absolutely correct. Plus, as joelist mentioned, that will get the DBs crowding the line, then you can lay one up top.

[Shake n Blake]

I haven't seen such vigorous defense of mediocrity (at best) since the days of Marvin Lewis. I really don't get it. Even if you don't think the line is complete trash (I don't) you should at least be positioning yourself on the "we definitely need to be better" side.

As far as stats, different sites show different things.

Pro Football Reference advanced stats show the following:

Sacks- 2nd most
Attempt- 17th most
Pocket Time- 23rd most (which suggests he isn't hanging around all that much)
Pressures- 9th most
Blitzed- 18th most (which means teams are getting pressure with the guys up front)

ESPN's pass block win rate has us ranked 31st.

But I guess we can go on blaming Burrow and the RBs for everything. Apparently that narrative is really sticking. Probably because everyone is burned out talking about the line. Which I 100% get.

Tbh, I think the hidden reason this debate is so intense is that we have different expectations for the line. Some will be content with an average line. I don't think everyone believes a top line to be necessary, and if that's the case, you probably think we're very close to achieving that.

Others want studs up front. A top shelf o-line. Looking at it that way, we're still pretty far off.

[J24]

The offensive Line is way better than last season but still as a long ways to go to being elite. The biggest problem they have is that their still learning to play together.

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-08-2021, 10:12 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: The line has been good enough this year. I’m positive it will be better next year.

Will Burrow continue to hold onto the football too long all the time and take terrible sacks? That’s my real question going into next year. Still too many bad mistakes on Burrow to hitch tge blame on the offensive line.

The line has been at fault some and certainly this last game with missing two starters that played a huge factor. But I agree Burrow has been a big contributor at times with trying to spin out of the pocket at times when he could step up and give the defenders better angles. Even on the clip of the strip sack that injured Burrows pinky he had two receivers open and seemed to hesitate and then time ran out. I don't know how it all breaks down statistically but Burrow's play has seemed to struggle. That will be one of the major questions heading into next season if he can continue to get better in these areas.

[jj22]

The line run blocks better than last season. If you want to say pass blocking is better, then we are going to have to discuss the issue with the QB. "Homers" can't defend everyone and blame no one. Something has to give. Or are we still blaming the RB's and TE's?

[NotBigzo]

(12-08-2021, 11:33 AM)grampahol Wrote: Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't they have to go back in time to have less than more? The two missing starters were the reason he was gotten to so often this last game..period. There were other reasons, but missing starters was the overwhelmingly major reason..

We’re on pace to have just as many sacks as we did last season. We’re at 36 right now and we had about 48 last year. And this is despite the offense being more balanced.

[NotBigzo]

(12-08-2021, 06:56 PM)jj22 Wrote: The line run blocks better than last season. If you want to say pass blocking is better, then we are going to have to discuss the issue with the QB. "Homers" can't defend everyone and blame no one. Something has to give. Or are we still blaming the RB's and TE's?

We’re victim blaming Burrow.

[Tony]

(12-08-2021, 12:28 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The line's doing a good-enough job and you know it.

You're being incredibly disingenuous and inflammatory.

Ya, they are not doing good enough.. Not even close...

[NotBigzo]

(12-08-2021, 11:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote: You get reception under that bridge?

What’s troll like about wanting elite LT play after growing up watching only elite LT play? I don’t understand.

[NotBigzo]

(12-08-2021, 02:30 AM)Joelist Wrote: Okay which previously banned poster do we have here?

Nicomo is correct - Burrow has self inflicted a lot of the sacks. Out of 32 teams in the NFL the Bengals have the 9th most time in the pocket - which means Burrow is having time to throw and someplace to throw from. He DOES hold the ball and he HAS made some perplexing decisions (two weeks in a row just stepping into the pocket would have turned a sack into a completed pass). None of this means Burrow is not a Grade A prospect - it means he needs to improve his pocket awareness and also move more in the pocket.

Was the line missing two starters and with green as grass backups out of sync Sunday? Yep - it happens. Do the Bengals need to get better at blitz pickup and backs pass protecting? Yep. Can the line get better? Yep. But it is not as bad as some try to represent.

I forgot my password and my old email is long gone so I made another one.

[NotBigzo]

(12-08-2021, 05:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I haven't seen such vigorous defense of mediocrity (at best) since the days of Marvin Lewis. I really don't get it. Even if you don't think the line is complete trash (I don't) you should at least be positioning yourself on the "we definitely need to be better" side.

As far as stats, different sites show different things.

Pro Football Reference advanced stats show the following:

Sacks- 2nd most
Attempt- 17th most
Pocket Time- 23rd most (which suggests he isn't hanging around all that much)
Pressures- 9th most
Blitzed- 18th most (which means teams are getting pressure with the guys up front)

ESPN's pass block win rate has us ranked 31st.

But I guess we can go on blaming Burrow and the RBs for everything. Apparently that narrative is really sticking. Probably because everyone is burned out talking about the line. Which I 100% get.

Tbh, I think the hidden reason this debate is so intense is that we have different expectations for the line. Some will be content with an average line. I don't think everyone believes a top line to be necessary, and if that's the case, you probably think we're very close to achieving that.

Others want studs up front. A top shelf o-line. Looking at it that way, we're still pretty far off.

It’s not even really defending mediocrity. It’s defending something that’s on pace to be slightly less shitty than it was last year.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-08-2021, 06:56 PM)jj22 Wrote: The line run blocks better than last season. If you want to say pass blocking is better, then we are going to have to discuss the issue with the QB. "Homers" can't defend everyone and blame no one. Something has to give. Or are we still blaming the RB's and TE's?

Well some of those sacks were on them.  So...

It's a game to game analysis.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-08-2021, 07:27 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: It’s not even really defending mediocrity. It’s defending something that’s on pace to be slightly less shitty than it was last year.

This...for me anyway....

(12-08-2021, 07:35 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Well some of those sacks were on them.  So...

It's a game to game analysis.

....but also this. They seem to be doing better themselves though, and the WRs are really blocking well. Sunday was really bad up front on several occasions.

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-08-2021, 05:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I haven't seen such vigorous defense of mediocrity (at best) since the days of Marvin Lewis. I really don't get it. Even if you don't think the line is complete trash (I don't) you should at least be positioning yourself on the "we definitely need to be better" side.

As far as stats, different sites show different things.

Pro Football Reference advanced stats show the following:

Sacks- 2nd most
Attempt- 17th most
Pocket Time- 23rd most (which suggests he isn't hanging around all that much)
Pressures- 9th most
Blitzed- 18th most (which means teams are getting pressure with the guys up front)

ESPN's pass block win rate has us ranked 31st.

But I guess we can go on blaming Burrow and the RBs for everything. Apparently that narrative is really sticking. Probably because everyone is burned out talking about the line. Which I 100% get.

Tbh, I think the hidden reason this debate is so intense is that we have different expectations for the line. Some will be content with an average line. I don't think everyone believes a top line to be necessary, and if that's the case, you probably think we're very close to achieving that.

Others want studs up front. A top shelf o-line. Looking at it that way, we're still pretty far off.

I don't think there's really any argument, the line needs to be improved. At the same time, there are issues besides the 5 guys up front and those things also need corrected. The QB part should come with experience. The RB/TE part is going to have to be better execution because i don't see them having that high on the list of 'positions to upgrade'. 

[BengalChris]

(12-07-2021, 11:45 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: We are on pace for 51 sacks, on pace to have as many as last year.  Pollack is really turning into a sack machine Oline Coach, over the last three seasons included the  Jets,who gave up 105 sacks in those two years.  Of course not all sacks are on the Oline but that is relative with every time in the league but our overall sacks are above the average and to think for 11 games we have been a very healthy Oline plus added better pieces in the off-season, with us banged up this week will be scary how they decided to play us now and down the road

The only real player improvement over last season was to sign Rieff to a one year deal. Carmon may turn out ok some day, but not today.

Come this off-season we'll be in the exact same spot as the last several off-seasons, in need to a lot of OL help. It's interesting how such an obvious point of weak can continue to be weak year after year.

 

[Joelist]

The sacks have been caused by Burrow AND our backs AND the OL - all three have had their issues. While I cannot locate exact numbers on sacks generally ascribed to Burrow and those ascribed to the backs, a couple of sites (really this stuff is hard to find weirdly) put 15-18 sacks on the OL and the rest on other actors. That doesn't excuse anyone but does show that pass protection is a whole offense exercise and all units can stand to improve:

- Burrow needs to be more aware in the pocket, move around more and take the quick pass instead of holding the ball

- The line itself needs to communicate better and stop being stoned in short yardage

- The backs and TEs have to stop missing their assignments

And the team needs veteran depth so that injuries won't completely unhinge things.

[Shake n Blake]

The problem I have with blaming backs and Burrow for sacks is that you can pretty much always say that. Backs always give up some. QBs are always to blame for several.

If they were causing a good bulk of them, wouldn't that hurt their PFF grades?

[fredtoast]

(12-08-2021, 07:27 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: It’s not even really defending mediocrity. It’s defending something that’s on pace to be slightly less shitty than it was last year.

Here is the thing.  You don't judge an entire offense based ONLY on the number of sacks allowed.  Only a troll who ignores everything he sees except the negative would claim that our passing game is only "slightly less shitty than it was last year".

Last year Burrow got sacked less often while dinking and dunking short passes.  This year he is getting sacked more often but throwing many more passes farther downfield.  

Last year Burrow had 4 completions of over 30 yards (2 of them short passes in air) and 23 of 20+ yds.  This year he has 17 completions over 30 yards (only 5 short passes in air) and 35 completions of 20+ yds.*


................................'20......'21*
Yds/comp.................10.2...12.1
Net yds/att............... 5.6...  7.1 (pass yds-sack yds/pass att + sacks)

So our passing game has improved dramatically and much of it is based on IMPROVED pass blocking that gives Burrow MORE TIME to attempt deeper passes.

Your take on this is like complaining about how there is no difference between a basketball player shooting 50% from 2 point range one year and shooting 50% on 3-pointers the next.  You either don't understand what is going on or you are intentionally ignoring anything positive in order to be a troll.


* Stats through first 11 games of 2021.

[Daddy-O]

(12-08-2021, 12:03 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Which is partly on him. The strip sack against the Chargers is a perfect example. I put that one more on Burrow than Jonah tbh.

Talked about this play for a while on the podcast. Notice that Williams takes the pass rusher 10y deep - def can do a better job finishing - but unclear to me why Burrow takes 2 hitches instead of just ripping it to Chase immediately.

2 of my favorite throws from him to follow pic.twitter.com/Y9gJMOEFCR

— Jake Liscow (@JakeLiscow) December 7, 2021

He talks about Burrow taking 2 hitches.  Those 2 hitches were him trying to climb back up into the pocket as he was sensing the pressure coming from the back side.  The end needed to be pushed deeper.  If you notice the end got a great step and bend on Williams, thus gaining the leverage needed to cut down his trajectory.

Sometimes you have to give credit to the other guy also.  They are professionals, they get paid also.