Weird things to ponder about the design of the offense...

[Whatever]

(12-15-2021, 03:59 PM)Tony Wrote: Have you seen all the Sacks and hits Burrow has took? They kill drives..

Burrow gets sacked around 10% of the time vs the blitz compared to 8% against a 4 man rush.  Not a huge difference.

Burrow is also the culprit for a lot of the sacks he takes.  Over 28% of pressures are converted to sacks against Burrow. Compare that to say, Tom Brady, against whom only 14% of pressures are converted to sacks.  A big reason for this is Brady takes 2.88 seconds to throw when under pressure.  Joe takes 3.24 seconds.  He holds the ball way too much trying to make plays.

[motoarch]

It's as if it was a professional sport played and planned by an extremely elite few that are qualified to file to roster of only 32 teams on any given weekend playing at highest level where even the worst players and coaches are still the best in world of billions of people who spend hours and hours trying to perfect a plan and strategy every week so they can against an opponent doing the same.

[*Synric*]

(12-13-2021, 12:50 AM)Joelist Wrote: 1) Why do they constantly fail to adjust to target the weak spot on opposing defenses?

2) Why do we never use scheme to put our players into position to succeed? For example moving Chase around to get better matchups? How about running plays to get our playmakers the ball in space - they don't have to be bombs just short pass plays.

3) Why claim you are a wide zone running team then turn around and run inside zone instead? Especially after back to back effective running games using wide zone?

4) Why are plays designed to burn the pass rush so incredibly rare from the Bengals? It basically means there is no downside to the opposing DL pinning its ears back.

5) Why are they so unbelievably bad at simple screens?

6) Why run empty set against a defense obviously blitzing? It is a recipe for disaster no matter what OL you have.

There are more...

1. Like the 49ers (cover 2 inside leverage light box to mask the weak boundary corners) teams use scheme to mask weaknesses. You can take advantage of the defensive scheme not always players.

2. They cannot move Chase inside because Tyler Boyd is a slot only and is not dangerous outside. Defenses can still double Chase inside and sit on quick breaking routes outside vs Boyd

3. Wide Zone is really only 1 run play you still need to run a variety. Outside, Mid, Inside, Tight, Duo, pitches etc etc.

4. Finding the opening because of the Blitz is something Joe Burrow is very good at and is one of the best this season.

5. They are solid at WR screens and very bad at RB screens. It's on the offensive line to sell then get in space.

6. Just because extra players are at the line doesnt mean it's a blitz also see answer to 4.

[ezekiel23]

(12-15-2021, 03:41 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I do agree that we need to run less empty, I would hope ZT would tell Burrow just can't run as much as he wants... i do think we actually do well adjusting, it is starting out games where we are not doing well,

I would add why don't we audible more...

It appears at the first half of games is where we are mainly struggling.This team just looks so unprepared starting out games.It would be nice if they would come out on fire for a change.It’s like they just have a hard time putting it all together consistently.

[Whatever]

(12-15-2021, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Using Chase as a short "check down" receiver is a waste of his talent.

Boyd is better in the slot than Chase is and Chase is better outside than Boyd is

LSU used Jefferson and Chase to run corner routes out of the slot with great effect.  They would obviously combine them with an in breaking route from the outside receiver like a dig, slant, post, or crossing route to hold the S in the middle of the field.

Chase would outproduce Boyd in the slot in a hypothetical swap with identical personnel around them.  The main reason is Chase is a much better RAC receiver than Boyd.  Chase is averaging 3.3 YAC Over Expected, which is 2nd best in the league.  Boyd only averages .3 YAC Over Expected.  The only reason Boyd might outproduce him in a practical sense is that Chase on the outside will open things up a lot more for Boyd than Boyd would for Chase as an outside WR.  

If we even had another deep threat, we could be free to move Chase into the slot more, but lack of speed at WR is a serious deficiency we have with our current roster construction.  

[Whacked]

Stats are great and all but for those of us that watch all of the games, it’s impossible to deny the impotence, sluggishness and just flat out dysfunction of the Offense at times.

JB (and Chase at times) shouldn’t need to bail us out w insane miracle plays just to win games.

The play calling is atrocious. It’s like we have a high school caliber play caller and game planner.

Everyone has seen what this O can do. Based on all this talent - it’s impossible to argue that something is not seriously wrong here regardless of that the stats say.

75% of most games, the O is stuck in first gear. It’s like they are in pre-season getting sent super basic plays to run or they are just plain lost at times.

Zero creativity or decent strategizing.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-13-2021, 12:50 AM)Joelist Wrote: 1) Why do they constantly fail to adjust to target the weak spot on opposing defenses?

2) Why do we never use scheme to put our players into position to succeed? For example moving Chase around to get better matchups? How about running plays to get our playmakers the ball in space - they don't have to be bombs just short pass plays.

3) Why claim you are a wide zone running team then turn around and run inside zone instead? Especially after back to back effective running games using wide zone?

4) Why are plays designed to burn the pass rush so incredibly rare from the Bengals? It basically means there is no downside to the opposing DL pinning its ears back.

5) Why are they so unbelievably bad at simple screens?

6) Why run empty set against a defense obviously blitzing? It is a recipe for disaster no matter what OL you have.

There are more...

I tend to stay away from your posts as they are negative-fests, but there is a lot of validity to this post.  I referenced having a faster uncover route to simply move the chains on another post.  That is where Burrow is getting hit.  They had some "cover two beaters" designed against the 49ers, but Burrow simply couldn't hold the ball long enough for them to develop.  They were there, but the pass rush won the snap time and time again.  This also leads to the use (or lack thereof) of the screen pass.  One disastrous screen tipped INT in the Jets game and they seemingly have shelved the play.


That basic flaw in the offense is your question 2, 4, 5, and somewhat 6.  It is a huge issue.  When they threw the screen to Sample, it was an easy, high %, 10 yard blitz beater.  I absolutely loved the 2nd Cleveland game last year (before ultimately losing the game) where the Bengals ran screen after screen to Sample.  Remember, Uzomah was out injured.  He had something like 5 grabs for 65 yards and it burned the pass rush every time.  And they KEPT RUNNING IT.  The only play I have seen the Bengals fall in love with lately has been the misdirection pitch where Morgan is a lead blocker on a sweep with Mixon.  SF knew what it was before they ran it and blew it up every time.  

I think if Chase doesn't turn a TD in to an INT and Mixon doesn't gift a fumble TD to the Chargers, they win that game.  Ditto the 49er game with Phillips's fumbles.  Win those two games and no one is probably talking about this, but if they Bengals want to win the AFC North and make some moves in the playoffs, this issue needs addressed.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-15-2021, 02:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Bengals have been one of the best passing teams in the league against the blitz.

I think the point is, although they have burned some blitzes down the field,  a good % of the time Burrow gets hit or sacked and that could be avoided with a faster uncover route as his "outlet".  They had blitz beaters downfield open against the 49ers but they never happened because Joe didn't have enough time for them to develop.  

If he had a better-designed outlet that he could quickly take if it isn't blocked up, he could avoid the sacks and move the chains.  And it isn't Burrow trying to be a hero and do everything downfield.  The all 22 shows this.  The routes designed are there, but they are taking too long to develop.  

Your comment is more of a testament to Burrow's downfield accuracy and toughness than good coaching.  He doesn't need to take all these unnecessary hits, and he will see plenty of elite pass rushers in the playoffs, should he be fortunate enough to qualify.  

 

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-15-2021, 05:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Using Chase as a short "check down" receiver is a waste of his talent.

Boyd is better in the slot than Chase is and Chase is better outside than Boyd is

It doesn't have to be an absolute, but Chase has better short space quickness than anyone on the team.  It could end up being a big play, too, as he is also the most dangerous with the ball in his hands.

Just on an occasional 3rd and middling, use Chase as a quick outlet and protect Burrow from hits and let Chase catch a defense that is playing off of him.

Again, I think we are really nitpicking as we wouldn't be saying any of these things if Chase didn't turn that TD to a pick, Mixon doesn't gift a fumble TD, and Phillips doesn't fumble two punts.  Those aren't coaching issues.  

[reuben.ahmed]

(12-13-2021, 12:50 AM)Joelist Wrote: 1) Why do they constantly fail to adjust to target the weak spot on opposing defenses?

2) Why do we never use scheme to put our players into position to succeed? For example moving Chase around to get better matchups? How about running plays to get our playmakers the ball in space - they don't have to be bombs just short pass plays.

3) Why claim you are a wide zone running team then turn around and run inside zone instead? Especially after back to back effective running games using wide zone?

4) Why are plays designed to burn the pass rush so incredibly rare from the Bengals? It basically means there is no downside to the opposing DL pinning its ears back.

5) Why are they so unbelievably bad at simple screens?

6) Why run empty set against a defense obviously blitzing? It is a recipe for disaster no matter what OL you have.

There are more...

1) Because halftime adjustments are done by Joe Burrow. How can we perform this bad fairly consistently in the first half? The coaches game plan for the start of the game.

2) This was marvin lewis' problem too, instead of using our players best abilities, we try to mold them to do something that fit what we wanted them to do.

3) I can hear coaching saying we have to keep them honest, even in things we're terrible at.

4) Yeah, any 3rd and longs it's an easy blitz and punt coming up.

5) Maybe Burrow doesn't have enough zip.

6) Tell me you miss Giovani Bernard without saying you miss Gio (even with a back, back therE)

[Joelist]

I've been very upfront that I think letting Gio go was a big mistake. And the disaster of our pass blocking by backs this season backs me up - EIGHT freaking sacks courtesy of our backs and TEs not picking up free rushers!

[*Go Cards*]

(12-13-2021, 12:50 AM)Joelist Wrote: 1) Why do they constantly fail to adjust to target the weak spot on opposing defenses?

2) Why do we never use scheme to put our players into position to succeed? For example moving Chase around to get better matchups? How about running plays to get our playmakers the ball in space - they don't have to be bombs just short pass plays.

3) Why claim you are a wide zone running team then turn around and run inside zone instead? Especially after back to back effective running games using wide zone?

4) Why are plays designed to burn the pass rush so incredibly rare from the Bengals? It basically means there is no downside to the opposing DL pinning its ears back.

5) Why are they so unbelievably bad at simple screens?

6) Why run empty set against a defense obviously blitzing? It is a recipe for disaster no matter what OL you have.

There are more...

Have always been curious about this as well because our RB screens are atrocious and have been throughout the years long before this coach even. 

Hearing to just throw against blitz but that generally causes the QB to take too many hits eventually. Am fine with taking this approach as well but think some well executed screen passes could help out a bad O-line and keep defenses guessing more. 

Plus obviously the great QB's like Rodgers seem to throw RB screens often.  

[sandwedge]

(12-13-2021, 12:58 AM)Joelist Wrote: I'm talking about the design of the offense - drops and other play factors are unrelated.

Huh? The scheme or design might work if players are catching a damn football or not fumbling....

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2021, 09:40 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: 4) Yeah, any 3rd and longs it's an easy blitz and punt coming up.

Can you please just stop making things up. 

Bengals have the 7th best conversion rate in the league on third and 6+ yards (31.9%)

[fredtoast]

(12-16-2021, 10:40 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Your comment is more of a testament to Burrow's downfield accuracy and toughness than good coaching.  

Here we go again.

Burrow gets credit for any positive play.

Zac gets blame for any negative play.

And not a single shred of evidence to support this position.

[Au165]

This thread hurts my head to read through. Simplifying any of those points to a sentence or two is a massive over simplification of how the game actually works. Synric did a good job of a simple answer but in reality you could go into some really in depth answers here as to why a lot of these observations don’t actually have much basis in high level football.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-18-2021, 04:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Here we go again.

Burrow gets credit for any positive play.

Zac gets blame for any negative play.

And not a single shred of evidence to support this position.

If you don't see him taking a lot of unnecessary hits on third and middling, fine.  You must not be watching closely.  Yes, they are still being successful downfield, but too many times it results in a hit after a throw or a sack.  To IMPROVE AND MAKE THE PLAYOFFS THIS NEEDS ADDRESSED.  Sorry if you see that as an indictment on the coaching staff.  I have been one of ZTs biggest supporters on here this year.  It doesn't mean he can't improve.  

You seem to live in such an overreacting manner.  

[fredtoast]

(12-18-2021, 06:13 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: If you don't see him taking a lot of unnecessary hits on third and middling, fine.  You must not be watching closely.  Yes, they are still being successful downfield, but too many times it results in a hit after a throw or a sack.  To IMPROVE AND MAKE THE PLAYOFFS THIS NEEDS ADDRESSED.  Sorry if you see that as an indictment on the coaching staff.  I have been one of ZTs biggest supporters on here this year.  It doesn't mean he can't improve.  

You seem to live in such an overreacting manner.  

Let me put it this was.

I am not an engineer, but if I see a new bridge collapse I know something went wrong.  That is kind of the way I am with football at the NFL level.  I just have to make a lot of judgments about our offense based on results and what I see with my own eyes.

What I see this year is a passing game that is greatly improved over last year.  Last year our QB was either dinking and dunking short passes or scrambling to avoid a rush.  This year I see a lot more downfield connections and it sure seems like Burrow has more time to throw those passes.  Last year we were 29th in yards per completion.  This year we are 3rd.

Last year we were dead last in the league (32nd) in converting 3rd and long (6+ yds).  This year we are 7th.

Last year we were 25th in passer rating and 27th in passing yards.  This year we are 7th in pass efficiency (despite Burrow leading the league in interceptions) and 11th in pass yards.

So if you want to argue that we accomplished these improvements with improvement from the O-line then I say the O-line does not even matter. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-19-2021, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Let me put it this was.

I am not an engineer, but if I see a new bridge collapse I know something went wrong.  That is kind of the way I am with football at the NFL level.  I just have to make a lot of judgments about our offense based on results and what I see with my own eyes.

What I see this year is a passing game that is greatly improved over last year.  Last year our QB was either dinking and dunking short passes or scrambling to avoid a rush.  This year I see a lot more downfield connections and it sure seems like Burrow has more time to throw those passes.  Last year we were 29th in yards per completion.  This year we are 3rd.

Last year we were dead last in the league (32nd) in converting 3rd and long (6+ yds).  This year we are 7th.

Last year we were 25th in passer rating and 27th in passing yards.  This year we are 7th in pass efficiency (despite Burrow leading the league in interceptions) and 11th in pass yards.

So if you want to argue that we accomplished these improvements with improvement from the O-line then I say the O-line does not even matter. 

I read this a number of times and it never made sense to me.  I think the problem is you are working so hard to interpret what I have said as a slight to someone or something that can be debated with some statistic.  I have been praising the offense, and ZT, for much of this season.  The post that seemed to have started this entire debate was my suggestion that the Bengals use Chase on some very short, quick-uncovering routes on third and 5.  Not every third down, but just 3rd and middling.  If Burrow has time to hold it and wait for something to uncover downfield, great.  My point was that many teams (I listed the Pats with Brady and all his quick checkdowns, Mahommes did the same thing the other night) have success using their best weapon as a quick checkdown option to move the chains and get another set of downs.

I don't recall ever crediting just the offensive line, a single receiving weapon, the QB, or just a coach as being the reason for these improvements, but it is a combination of all those things.

My goal in designing that quick checkdown with Chase is to help the offense maintain more possessions on a down and distance that seems to lead to a lot of sacks or at the very least, hits on Burrow.  It wasn't an attack on the coaches.  

[Dean_Gilberry95]

I haven’t read the whole thread, so if anyone has mentioned this, my bad. They really need to throw a few of those balls to Stanley Morgan when he’s in there to block. We all know he’s a great blocker but it’s also a giveaway that it’s going to be a run. Too predictable. But we all know that.