Let’s Compare

[Au165]

I said before the season continuity in the NFL matters. People constantly want to fire and start over but with that comes new schemes that take time to learn. It’s actually an issue league wide and why many bad teams tend to stay bad for long periods of time, owners are too impatient.

Don’t confuse owners firing coaches constantly as knowing how to win, it’s simply wanting to win but not sure how else to. Often the two get confused and people take inaction as not wanting to win because they aren’t “doing anything”. Tony Dungy once wrote about how most owners have no clue what to even be hiring for in a Hc so they just keep trying to show they “want to win” but it’s a failed thought process.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-28-2021, 08:14 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm content with Taylor right now and accepted he will be the coach next season. But he has let 3 or 4 games be lost this season due to his decisions. I know we all like 9-6 with a chance to win the division but we could of already locked it up. Now we need a win in what is probably gonna be 2 very tough games to get a win. We should wait until the regular season is done to assess the job Taylor has done.

Just think if we don't have a rash of turnovers in a few games. I think the players lost at least two games, maybe 3 if you count GB.

[grampahol]

(12-28-2021, 02:10 PM)Au165 Wrote: I said before the season continuity in the NFL matters. People constantly want to fire and start over but with that comes new schemes that take time to learn. It’s actually an issue league wide and why many bad teams  tend to stay bad for long periods of time, owners are too impatient.

Don’t confuse owners firing coaches constantly as knowing how to win, it’s simply wanting to win but not sure how else to. Often the two get confused and people take inaction as not wanting to win because they aren’t “doing anything”. Tony Dungy once wrote about how most owners have no clue what to even be hiring for in a Hc so they just keep trying to show they “want to win” but it’s a failed thought process.

Absolutely.. Look at Mike Brown as prime example number one except he was too stubborn to change his ways.. He hung onto people who needed to go long before their time was finally up. Initially he meddled far too much in rosters, drafts, etc..He was an extremely frustrating owner, but now you rarely hear much about Brown and his goofiness.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-28-2021, 03:45 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Outside of Cincinnati, all those team have had coaching changes in that 3 year span as well and no improvement.

Only two of those teams have their QB situation resolved.

Lions are literally a Goff replacement away from a huge swing into the positive direction. They are doing the Bengal thing from last year, losing one score games and last minute weird losses. 

Jets and Giants need to just trash it all and start over.

Lions need more than just a new QB. They are 29th in Points For and 25th in Points Allowed.

For some reason, they are a RBBC team, although I think they need to prioritize Swift more.
They need an outside WR to go along with ASB and Hockenson.
Their OTs should be set with Decker and Sewell, plus not having Ragnow has been a huge blow to them, but they could use probably an upgrade at OG.

As for their defense, they don't really have much of a pass rush aside from Charles Harris.
I expect their 1st round pick will be either Thibodeaux or Hutchinson.
They really could use better defensive players at almost any position, although maybe they'll be better in the secondary when Okudah returns.

[Au165]

(12-28-2021, 02:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Lions need more than just a new QB. They are 29th in Points For and 25th in Points Allowed.

For some reason, they are a RBBC team, although I think they need to prioritize Swift more.
They need an outside WR to go along with ASB and Hockenson.
Their OTs should be set with Decker and Sewell, plus not having Ragnow has been a huge blow to them, but they could use probably an upgrade at OG.

As for their defense, they don't really have much of a pass rush aside from Charles Harris.
I expect their 1st round pick will be either Thibodeaux or Hutchinson.
They really could use better defensive players at almost any position, although maybe they'll be better in the secondary when Okudah returns.

Okudah has been awful, they probably need to revisit corner as well. To your point, the whole defense is bad but to be fair they have at times stepped up against some decent teams. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-28-2021, 12:11 PM)Daddy-O Wrote: I'm not a fan of ZT as a play caller but decisions can go either way based on execution.  Just ask John Harbaugh.

The "Zac costs us games because of play calling" is just folks unwilling to get all the salt out of their mouths. Let's look at a few loses:

Chicago: Burrow throws 3 consecutive INTs, yet we only lose by 3. i suppose Zac shouldn't have called for 3 INTs in a row

Packers: We take the best team in the NFL in OT and would have won if our kicker didn't miss 2 consecutive FGs. I suppose Zac shouldn't have called for the back to back missed FGs

Jets: Up by 5 in the 4th and JB throws a silly INT. I suppose Zac should have taken the ball out of JB's hand. Despite this we are still set up to get a final tying/winning score but Hilton is called for a phantom Unnecessary Roughness call after we stop them on 3rd and 11. I suppose Zac should have told the ref not to make the call

[*ochocincos*]

(12-28-2021, 02:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: Okudah has been awful, they probably need to revisit corner as well. To your point, the whole defense is bad but to be fair they have at times stepped up against some decent teams. 

Okudah's only played 1 game this season, and he only played in 9 last season.
I'd like to think the Lions give him at least one more season before looking to replace him.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-28-2021, 02:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The "Zac costs us games because of play calling" is just folks unwilling to get all the salt out of their mouths. Let's look at a few loses:

Chicago: Burrow throws 3 consecutive INTs, yet we only lose by 3. i suppose Zac shouldn't have called for 3 INTs in a row

Packers: We take the best team in the NFL in OT and would have won if our kicker didn't miss 2 consecutive FGs. I suppose Zac shouldn't have called for the back to back missed FGs

Jets: Up by 5 in the 4th and JB throws a silly INT. I suppose Zac should have taken the ball out of JB's hand. Despite this we are still set up to get a final tying/winning score but Hilton is called for a phantom Unnecessary Roughness call after we stop them on 3rd and 11. I suppose Zac should have told the ref not to make the call

Jets loss was more on the defense, IMO.
One of the worst offensive teams in the league shouldn't put up 34 on a playoff contender.

[muskiesfan]

(12-28-2021, 02:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The "Zac costs us games because of play calling" is just folks unwilling to get all the salt out of their mouths. Let's look at a few loses:

Chicago: Burrow throws 3 consecutive INTs, yet we only lose by 3. i suppose Zac shouldn't have called for 3 INTs in a row

Packers: We take the best team in the NFL in OT and would have won if our kicker didn't miss 2 consecutive FGs. I suppose Zac shouldn't have called for the back to back missed FGs

Jets: Up by 5 in the 4th and JB throws a silly INT. I suppose Zac should have taken the ball out of JB's hand. Despite this we are still set up to get a final tying/winning score but Hilton is called for a phantom Unnecessary Roughness call after we stop them on 3rd and 11. I suppose Zac should have told the ref not to make the call

Are these things mutually exclusive? Isn't is possible that Zac can make poor calls/decisions and the players also fail to execute?

Obviously Zac didn't throw the 3 consecutive interceptions, but he did have a game plan that didn't have an attempted pass longer than 11 yards until the end of the 3rd quarter. The significance being that Chicago had been burned the week prior on deep passing.

It was a good game with Green Bay but much like San Francisco in OT they decided to run a couple of times and settle for FG opportunities when they could have been/stayed aggressive and went for the end zone.

I understand you are intentionally being obtuse and trying to make those who disagree look bad, but no one is blaming Zac for execution. The players have needed to execute better in situations just like Zac has needed to have better game plans or play calling in games as well. Zac has taken the blame for some of these things himself.

I admit that he has done a lot of good as head coach. The players love him, have bought in, and they're having fun. Let him be the head coach. I don't see whats wrong with wanting a better play caller/OC to help take the offense up a notch or two. We have the talent and the weapons. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-28-2021, 03:09 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Isn't is possible that Zac can make poor calls/decisions and the players also fail to execute?

It is, but I've not seen anyone in this thread stating our loses are because of poor execution of Zac's game plan. I was simply providing a counter to the lazy analysis. 

Folks have to pick at knits often to "blame' Zac and they often have to contradict themselves

[muskiesfan]

(12-28-2021, 03:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is, but I've not seen anyone in this thread stating our loses are because of poor execution of Zac's game plan. I was simply providing a counter to the lazy analysis. 

I can agree that's fair. Both have contributed and I think all involved have taken responsibility for their parts in it. The players certainly need to execute and cut down on turnovers and on the other side create turnovers. I do not blame Zac for the muffed kicks, but putting the same player out there wasn't a smart decision. I think that is a case of both working together to create a bad situation, poor execution and poor decision making.

I have been against Zac since he got here. I have come around that what he has helped to build as head coach has been good for the players. The atmosphere seems solid. I support that completely. Even if he continues to be the play caller I think having a better OC in his ear would help. My crystal ball is failing me at the moment so I don't know who that person would be or if it really would be help. It's just an opinion.

[CardCounterChris]

(12-28-2021, 03:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is, but I've not seen anyone in this thread stating our loses are because of poor execution of Zac's game plan. I was simply providing a counter to the lazy analysis. 

Folks have to pick at knits often to "blame' Zac and they often have to contradict themselves

I only mentioned the Zac Taylor play calling because the point of the thread is "Bengals winning while other previous bad teams lose means Zac Taylor is good".  Of course the team hasn't executed perfectly.

The Bears and Jets games were abysmal.  I have no qualms about the Packers lost.  Cincy took a top 3 team to overtime and the wind was insane.  Burrow has thrown a lot of interceptions, the team has come out flat, etc.  I don't think anyone on this board is questioning the talent of the team despite mistakes, but I would 100% push back if you were telling me that Zac Taylor game plan is being held back by this team.

[3wt]

(12-28-2021, 12:42 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Your point is not invalid. When I look at some plays, I scratch my head. But, play calling is something a coach improves with experience. Other intangibles, the coach either has them or he doesn't. Taylor has all the intangibles, his vision for the locker room, his ability to get players to listen to him and buy into what he's selling, his relationship with his Quarterbacks, his drafting and input on the right Free Agents... Taylor has all of this, his experience with calling NFL games will only get better.

And my take is that he is improving - this year.  Growth is not always a foregone conclusion, and there was a time when I thought he wasn't going to grow.   But he's grown this year.  And I think he's going to continue that trend.

I could see us folding in the next 2 weeks against 2 really good teams, winning the division and one playoff game, or going to the Superbowl.

Most fun I've felt at this point in the season since 2015.

[Murdock2420]

(12-28-2021, 02:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Lions need more than just a new QB. They are 29th in Points For and 25th in Points Allowed.

For some reason, they are a RBBC team, although I think they need to prioritize Swift more.
They need an outside WR to go along with ASB and Hockenson.
Their OTs should be set with Decker and Sewell, plus not having Ragnow has been a huge blow to them, but they could use probably an upgrade at OG.

As for their defense, they don't really have much of a pass rush aside from Charles Harris.
I expect their 1st round pick will be either Thibodeaux or Hutchinson.
They really could use better defensive players at almost any position, although maybe they'll be better in the secondary when Okudah returns.

Swift has been hurt most of the season (had him in fantasy) which is why they kept limiting his workload. Was dealing with a hamstring injury for weeks, and then once he was healed up and they gave him a full workload, he got tackled funny and hurt his shoulder.

Hockenson is a beast, and St. Brown is really coming on strong, (4th rounder producing like a 1st rounder...but I digress) I also think they have a 2nd WR in Quintez Cephus who was showing promise prior to his injury. Again, you have to think of the absolute handicap to St Brown and Cehpus of having Captain checkdown Goff under center. Put Burrow or Josh Allen or Justin Herbert on that team, they are .500 or better.

They do have some defensive holes, but those you can mask a little more if you are putting up points, and with that line and an upgrade at QB, they'd be an issue for a lot of teams. Problem for them is, there isn't a sure fire lock of a QB in the draft this season. They need to get lucky with the FA crop this season. And adding Hutchinson or Thib will really help, they get either of them and say Wilson leaves Seattle and goes there (I know super unlikely) that team would be interesting.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-28-2021, 04:04 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Swift has been hurt most of the season (had him in fantasy) which is why they kept limiting his workload. Was dealing with a hamstring injury for weeks, and then once he was healed up and they gave him a full workload, he got tackled funny and hurt his shoulder.

Hockenson is a beast, and St. Brown is really coming on strong, (4th rounder producing like a 1st rounder...but I digress) I also think they have a 2nd WR in Quintez Cephus who was showing promise prior to his injury. Again, you have to think of the absolute handicap to St Brown and Cehpus of having Captain checkdown Goff under center. Put Burrow or Josh Allen or Justin Herbert on that team, they are .500 or better.

They do have some defensive holes, but those you can mask a little more if you are putting up points, and with that line and an upgrade at QB, they'd be an issue for a lot of teams. Problem for them is, there isn't a sure fire lock of a QB in the draft this season. They need to get lucky with the FA crop this season. And adding Hutchinson or Thib will really help, they get either of them and say Wilson leaves Seattle and goes there (I know super unlikely) that team would be interesting.

I have more hope in Josh Reynolds becoming a key contributor for DET than Quinton Cephus.
He's already put up 295 in 6 games.
With that said, I don't see Reynolds as a guy who could be a perennial 1000+ yard WR.


Get the Lions a true WR1 caliber guy to go along with St. Brown and Hockenson, and I think the passing game gets better.

I agree though that this doesn't look like a great year for QBs. There isn't a QB like Burrow or Lawrence that people have high confidence will do well right from the get-go. The FA market also looks terrible. Maybe they could draw Jameis Winston or Cam Newton to try to resurrect their careers, but that's a gamble.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2021, 11:52 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Or pacing it for a playoff run. Building the confidence. Building Burrow’s confidence. Taylor has been holding somethings back for what’s coming up. It’s how you finish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, we will see come Sunday cause I do agree with SHRacer that Taylor deserves Coach of the year if we win this one
and he has completed the rebuild. The trenches and the Play Calling were what was holding us back in Taylor's first 2 years.

The Play Calling is on him, but go and try and coach up a team with terrible play in the trenches on both sides of the ball.

Good luck winning games with what Taylor inherited. 

It IS how you finish and if we win Sunday we are in the Playoffs and I have confidence in us making some noise.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2021, 02:04 PM)TJ528 Wrote: Sled, I'll be the first one to say I was wrong and I'll eat crow all day. 

Coming into this season I didn't think Taylor was made out to be a coach and I really thought Lou was the worst DC in the league. 

I've come around on both.  I think Taylor has really grown this year.  I think he's taken more chances in the past few weeks that he wouldn't have earlier in the year.  

I can see things going up and beyond for this team and organization.  Lets just hope they invest in the OL this offseason :) 

Nice classy post TJ. I thought things would come around for Taylor this year but count me as a dude who wanted Lou gone.

Didn't expect him to have turned the Defense around like he has. Yes, invest in the OL this Offseason and keep building up 
the trenches and this team will be contending for a long time to come. Taylor is learning on the job, a young coach can do 
this, didn't expect Lou who is significantly older to learn and build such a fun D to watch. Need to give Mahomes troubles 
though. This next game is huge for everyone, we will truly see where we are sitting. Best test we could get late in the year.

[CardCounterChris]

(12-28-2021, 04:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice classy post TJ. I thought things would come around for Taylor this year but count me as a dude who wanted Lou gone.

Didn't expect him to have turned the Defense around like he has. Yes, invest in the OL this Offseason and keep building up 
the trenches and this team will be contending for a long time to come. Taylor is learning on the job, a young coach can do 
this, didn't expect Lou who is significantly older to learn and build such a fun D to watch. Need to give Mahomes troubles 
though. This next game is huge for everyone, we will truly see where we are sitting. Best test we could get late in the year.

Yes! I want to see O Line investment too!  However, I want to see 1 or 2 additions in free agency at OL.  This means we get more day 1 starters and we are still open in the draft.  I was happy with picking up Reiff this past off season, but would have also really liked to see Thuney or someone else come with.  KC showed how fast you can convert a line.  If we can do half of what they did, I'd call that a win.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2021, 05:15 PM)CardCounterChris Wrote: Yes! I want to see O Line investment too!  However, I want to see 1 or 2 additions in free agency at OL.  This means we get more day 1 starters and we are still open in the draft.  I was happy with picking up Reiff this past off season, but would have also really liked to see Thuney or someone else come with.  KC showed how fast you can convert a line.  If we can do half of what they did, I'd call that a win.

I like our depth with the young guys and another year in Pollack's system with some experience but we need another starter 
here at RT and another FA grab at either Center or RG while keeping Spain around I agree completely. Build it up in front of 
the Joe's and we will be tough for a long time on Offense.

[*bfine32*]

(12-28-2021, 03:20 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I can agree that's fair. Both have contributed and I think all involved have taken responsibility for their parts in it. The players certainly need to execute and cut down on turnovers and on the other side create turnovers. I do not blame Zac for the muffed kicks, but putting the same player out there wasn't a smart decision. I think that is a case of both working together to create a bad situation, poor execution and poor decision making.

I have been against Zac since he got here. I have come around that what he has helped to build as head coach has been good for the players. The atmosphere seems solid. I support that completely. Even if he continues to be the play caller I think having a better OC in his ear would help. My crystal ball is failing me at the moment so I don't know who that person would be or if it really would be help. It's just an opinion.

(12-28-2021, 03:23 PM)CardCounterChris Wrote: I only mentioned the Zac Taylor play calling because the point of the thread is "Bengals winning while other previous bad teams lose means Zac Taylor is good".  Of course the team hasn't executed perfectly.

The Bears and Jets games were abysmal.  I have no qualms about the Packers lost.  Cincy took a top 3 team to overtime and the wind was insane.  Burrow has thrown a lot of interceptions, the team has come out flat, etc.  I don't think anyone on this board is questioning the talent of the team despite mistakes, but I would 100% push back if you were telling me that Zac Taylor game plan is being held back by this team.

IMO it's experience; both in the staff and players. We are not experienced anywhere in the top 3 on the coaching staff (HC/OC/DC) and I don't believe we have a player that has ever been to the playoffs on O or D.

IMO we did it wrong, You either get a young staff to work with and refocus an experienced team or you get an experienced staff to work with and mentor a young team.

We paid for this in Zac's first 2 years; I'm not sure I'm ready to try again jjust when it may be clicking. I]ll wager if we fire Zac, we won't be the last team he is HC for.