Cap space

[TecmoBengals]

(02-08-2022, 12:01 PM)ochocincos Wrote: People thought the same thing for years with teams like Pittsburgh and New Orleans, but those teams restructured players out the wazoo to keep just under the cap year-to-year and stay mostly competitive.

Rams will find a way to do the same.

KSE is also clearly invested in the Rams more than their other sports franchises so that lends credence to what you're saying.

[WeezyBengal]

(02-08-2022, 11:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No we could not.

The four you listed would cost 45.  That just leaves 23 million.

So how do we sign Uzomah, Hill, Ogunjobi, Apple, plus allm our other free agents for 3 to 8 million to be 15-20 million under the cap?

Planning on our #31-32 pick to be an instant starter as a rookie is not smart?

If the cap was as easy to manipulate as you claim then we would not see the wave of free agents that are cut for "cap reasons" every year.

I wouldn't bring back Apple and only one of Hill, Ogunjobi. 

This is why you trade up in the draft to nab the best corner available (Sauce Gardner). You can cut Apple out and upgrade at corner back with a guy on a rookie contract for 5 years.

We need to stop thinking like a rebuilding team and start using draft capital to obtain quality players. I am all for trading up to get quality players over quantity or trading picks to get proven talent on reasonable contracts. Everything should be about "win now" while Burrow and Chase are on their rookie deals.

[mikey6866]

(02-08-2022, 12:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I do.

Show me your numbers.

And while you are at it explain why the term "cap casualty" was created when no team ever has to cut a player to get under the cap.

Im sorry, but you dont.  Your posts clearly show that you have no understanding of how the cap works.  I can give you 4 guys with AAV of 10 million and cap numbers less than 4 million for all of them.  It would depend on signing bonus of course because that gets spread out.  For example I can sign bozeman to a 7 year 70 million dollar deal with 20 mil signing bonus.  That 20 mil is spread over 7 years with a minimum salary year one.  That cap hit would be about 4 mil for the first year.  See how easy i can manipulate cap number?  I can also restructure deal later in contract if cap hit is high you can just restructure contract to change cap number down and push out money to future years again.

Im not even going to get into voidable years because most people struggle to understand. Its just another tool that FO's use to manipulate and lower cap numbers.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2022, 12:02 PM)mikey6866 Wrote:   Its the same way the steelers have restructured every single deal year after year to push money forward. 

Steelers just had to cut starting safety Steven Nelson last year to get under the cap.

They also lost starting Guard Matt Feiler, OT Alejandro Villanueva, and DB Mike Hilton to free agency because they could not afford to re-sign them.

Lack of cap space took down the Steelers.

[Tomcat]

Just wondering out loud with the Bengals signing Drue Chrisman to a futures contract if that means we're seeing the end to the Huber era in Stripes? I think Huber makes 3-4 million.

[WeezyBengal]

(02-08-2022, 12:33 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Just wondering out loud with the Bengals signing Drue Chrisman to a futures contract if that means we're seeing the end to the Huber era in Stripes? I think Huber makes 3-4 million.

Huber needs to be out. He's been bad this year and especially in the playoffs. I'm over the net 30 yard punts. 

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2022, 12:23 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: We need to stop thinking like a rebuilding team and start using draft capital to obtain quality players. I am all for trading up to get quality players over quantity.

When you trade away draft picks you trade away the future.

Only 6 players taken in the second half of the first round were starters last year.  We would have to give up half of our draft to get into the top 16 picks, and even then it might not produce a guy who would start as a rookie.

[M.W.]

(02-08-2022, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Steelers just had to cut starting safety Steven Nelson last year to get under the cap.

They also lost starting Guard Matt Feiler, OT Alejandro Villanueva, and DB Mike Hilton to free agency because they could not afford to re-sign them.

Lack of cap space took down the Steelers.

Sooner or later it catches up with you for sure.  Then in the case of the Rams they completely mortgaged their future to get super high priced players.  

[M.W.]

(02-08-2022, 12:33 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Just wondering out loud with the Bengals signing Drue Chrisman to a futures contract if that means we're seeing the end to the Huber era in Stripes? I think Huber makes 3-4 million.

(02-08-2022, 12:34 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Huber needs to be out. He's been bad this year and especially in the playoffs. I'm over the net 30 yard punts. 

For real, glad he is a hometown guy and he was good for a long time but not so much anymore.  Definitely not 3M per year good,  if we upgrade the OL significantly the punter will be bored to death on game day!

[mikey6866]

(02-08-2022, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Steelers just had to cut starting safety Steven Nelson last year to get under the cap.

They also lost starting Guard Matt Feiler, OT Alejandro Villanueva, and DB Mike Hilton to free agency because they could not afford to re-sign them.

Lack of cap space took down the Steelers.

Once again i didnt say its what we should do.  Im illustrating how easy it can be.  The steelers retained most of their talent for years kicking can into future.   Every team is going to lose some starters along the way in FA its inevitable.  They key is keeping your stars and supplements coming by way of draft each year once you have a core thats capable of getting you deep in playoffs.  Once you got the core that is producing at a high level and they get paid you are going to lose some starters.  The league is designed this way.  Were in an entirely different situation as most of our core is young and wont need signed for a few years and were going to have 70 mil in cap room.  We can still make big signings now to supplement team and still be able to manage cap through resigning core as they come due.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2022, 12:27 PM)mikey6866 Wrote:   That 20 mil is spread over 7 years with a minimum salary year one. 

So you think a signing bonus can be spread over 7 years?

And you are trying to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about?

That is just precious.

[WeezyBengal]

(02-08-2022, 12:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: When you trade away draft picks you trade away the future.

Only 6 players taken in the second half of the first round were starters last year.  We would have to give up half of our draft to get into the top 16 picks, and even then it might not produce a guy who would start as a rookie.

You overvalue draft picks, especially for a team that isn't rebuilding. 

The Bengals currently have 10 guys that contribute on their roster out of the 46 they've drafted since 2016 - 2020. That's hitting on 21% of draft picks. Go back and look at who we've draft in rounds 4-7 recently. They've been completely worthless. We've even missed on 2nd and a decent amount of 3rd round picks as well. 

If I have to package a 1st, 3rd, and 4th to move up in the first round this year to grab a legit day one starting cornerback on a rookie contract then I am 10000% doing that. 

If I can package a 1st and 3rd round pick to a rebuilding team to get a REALLY good RT on a good contract then I am 10000% doing that. You are getting a proven quantity of a first round pick without the development or chance of that pick not being good.

The future is now. There is no need to continue the crap shoot of the draft. Trade unknown picks for proven guys or a better pick. We don't need three 4th round picks and 10 day 2 picks.

[mikey6866]

(02-08-2022, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you think a signing bonus can be spread over 7 years?

And you are trying to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about?

That is just precious.

yeah it can be spread over 5 years.  Once again these are not real scenarios.  I was trying to explain cap manipulation.  I didnt realize you were looking for exact scenarios.  In that same scenario cap spread over 5 years give you what cap number?  Significatly less than 10 mil AAV.  Ill stick to only making exact claims from now on.  A 7 year contract is extremely unlikley and was only trying to point out cap value vs AAV.

[Luvnit2]

(02-08-2022, 11:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No we could not.

The four you listed would cost 45.  That just leaves 23 million.

So how do we sign Uzomah, Hill, Ogunjobi, Apple, plus allm our other free agents for 3 to 8 million to be 15-20 million under the cap?

Planning on our #31-32 pick to be an instant starter as a rookie is not smart?

If the cap was as easy to manipulate as you claim then we would not see the wave of free agents that are cut for "cap reasons" every year.

Fred some teams like the Saints push the cap dollars to future years, thus why they did it to much and now are in cap hell. 2 years ago got a lot of teams in trouble that banked on the normal rise in cap dollars, instead there was cap reduction again adding to the woes of teams who pushed a lot of bonus money to future years to lessen te cap hit in year one of these contracts.

Bengals do not do a  lot of it but like I mentioned earlier in  the thread they did it with Reiff to keep his cap hit lower in 2021, sign him to 2 year deal  but year 2 is voidable so they have dead money in 2022 regardless for Reiff whether they sign him again or let him go in FA. Reiff is a free agent and Bengals have the dead money they would have paid him in 2021 and hit 2021 cap.

So, that is the tricky part some don't understand, many think if you sign someone for 4 years 40 million with 26 million guaranteed, the cap hit is 10 million per year, it could be but also could look like this.

1. 24 million dollar bonus year one and salary/bonuses of 1 million = 7 million cap hit year #1 (not 10 million)
Year 2 - 6 million bonus (out of the 24 million 24 million divided by 4 (# years of contract) + 2 million in salary/bonuses = 8 million cap hit year #2
 So after 2 years team has met all guarantees, but still has 12 million in dead money
Year 3 - 6 million in bonuses and non guaranteed salary and bonuses - 6 million so 12 million cap hit year 3
Year #4 - 6 million from original bonus and 7 million in salary and bonuses so 13 million cap hit in year #4

The danger in these contracts is if I guy gets hurt, team is on hook for the guaranteed money, but many teams do this with younger players. It is not the way to do all contracts, but like the Reiff contract, it is a way to push the cap hit down the road thus creating cap room in year one.

[Luvnit2]

(02-08-2022, 12:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you think a signing bonus can be spread over 7 years?

And you are trying to tell me that I don't know what I am talking about?

That is just precious.

I know you do not accept being wrong, but yes bonus money can be spread (if a team chooses to) can be spread over the life of the contract. That is why you see a QB huge contract for 6 years, it is to manage the cap in the early years knowing later on big hits are coming, but banking on the cap dollars going up to cover it.

[packerbacker]

I don’t hate the Rams at all but I love you guys. Stafford might hand out gifts as he is too nervous for the big stage.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2022, 01:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I know you do not accept being wrong, but yes bonus money can be spread (if a team chooses to) can be spread over the life of the contract. That is why you see a QB huge contract for 6 years, it is to manage the cap in the early years knowing later on big hits are coming, but banking on the cap dollars going up to cover it.

It can't be spread out more than 5 years.

[mikey6866]

(02-08-2022, 01:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I know you do not accept being wrong, but yes bonus money can be spread (if a team chooses to) can be spread over the life of the contract. That is why you see a QB huge contract for 6 years, it is to manage the cap in the early years knowing later on big hits are coming, but banking on the cap dollars going up to cover it.

Signing bonus money is limited to 5 year spread.  He knows that was a complete mock scenario and i though about changing it before i posted but he wants to make sure that it sounds like he understands contracts and the cap which he clearly does not.  He is right that the signing bonus can only be spread a max of 5 years.  I was simply just posting a very general illustration of how AAV differs from cap numbers.  I should have just made it a 5 year deal with less signing bonus money to make it "comply" within the actual rules.  I was literally just trying to make a point not acting like this was a real contract offer.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2022, 12:49 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote:  You are getting a proven quantity of a first round pick without the development or chance of that pick not being good.

You mean "proven" like John Ross, Billy Price, and Cedric Ogbuehi?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-08-2022, 12:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Steelers just had to cut starting safety Steven Nelson last year to get under the cap.

They also lost starting Guard Matt Feiler, OT Alejandro Villanueva, and DB Mike Hilton to free agency because they could not afford to re-sign them.

Lack of cap space took down the Steelers.

They still made the playoffs with a QB who couldn't throw the football, literally just .5 wins behind the Bengals for division lead.

People had been saying for at least a decade "oh, they're just kicking the can down the road, they'll have to pay for it eventually!" when the Steelers moved contract money around to make cap space... yet they still haven't had a losing season since 2003.

Worry about getting better now, not what may or may not happen 3 years later.