What Pollack wants in OL

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 02:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I completely agree with you on the bolded.
Reiff is serviceable-to-solid, but he's not close to elite by any means.
I definitely don't think (or even want) the Bengals will spend $12+ mill on an OT.
I think the most they'd spend is $10 mill.

I like Morgan Moses and Trent Brown more than Reiff for RT, and neither should be crazy expensive.

You bring up that new OL coaching assistant, which I didn't factor in. Maybe he's the missing key. I just don't have that confidence yet with the current OL coaches to really develop a draft pick though.

I've also been one of the posters mentioning there isn't going to be as much money flying around as some think/hope.
Bengals will have to make some hard decisions and/or let some positions stay in current state or try having a draft pick upgrade.

I reiterate that the 17 game season and the dynamics of actually a 21 game season counting the post season really makes a solid entire roster important depth wise. We were fortunate injury wise. But we also had particularly at linebacker backups make a huge difference. That’s why I think they keep Hopkins, Spain, and Reiff. Don’t know the number mind you but let’s say it’s 50 million price tag for the OL position group. They don’t want 5 starters @ $40 and 5 reserves @ $10 million. Just my guess.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 11:52 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Bucky Brooks has Raimann going to us now too.

NFL network draft analysts said Billy Price was a plug and play player who could play all three IOL positions. How did their projections turn out? They’re wrong about 50% of the time in the first round.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 02:45 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I reiterate that the 17 game season and the dynamics of actually a 21 game season counting the post season really makes a solid entire roster important depth wise. We were fortunate injury wise. But we also had particularly at linebacker backups make a huge difference. That’s why I think they keep Hopkins, Spain, and Reiff. Don’t know the number mind you but let’s say it’s 50 million price tag for the OL position group. They don’t want 5 starters @ $40 and 5 reserves @ $10 million. Just my guess.

I agree about the depth.
Bengals don't have good depth in a lot of places.
But the Bengals don't typically pay $5+ mill to a backup, even if they have versatility to cover multiple spots.

[Bengalbug]

(03-03-2022, 02:45 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What about DK Metcalf?

Clearly you just want to debate. You know exactly what I am saying. It would be no different than for us trading for a good, not great tackle, rather than rely on a guy drafted at the end of the second

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 01:50 AM)J24 Wrote: 1.) They will be under the cap by the time free agency starts!

2.) How is Boyd overpriced he is a 1000 yard caliber  WR who is being paid 10 Million a year? That's a bargain if anything!

Do we really care if someone is a certain caliber? Or care mainly what they will actually contribute?
I'd argue $10 mill for a WR3 is overpriced.
If he's a 1000-yard WR (which I know he is), he probably should be playing as a WR1 or WR2 for some other team.
Is it worth paying $10 mill for ~800 yards receiving in a season?

Or maybe a better question - If it came down to not being able to solidify the starting offense with all veteran signings, would you rather:
1) Keep Boyd and draft an OL on Day 2 to start, or...
2) Move on from Boyd, sign an OL starter with that $7.1 mill saved, and draft a WR on Day 2?

I have more confidence in the Bengals drafting a WR on Day 2 and getting WR3-level production from him as a rookie than I do them drafting an OL on Day 2 and them being a solid-or-better starter as a rookie. Heck, I'd think a Day 2 WR would have a better shot at being a successful starter as a rookie than just about any other position. The only other exceptions I could think of would be RB or TE.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 12:01 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Top 15 in what? Tackles?
Definitely not true if that's what you meant.

Reiff was a 67.3 PFF grade, which was 49th among OTs in the regular season.
He had a 70.0 run block but a mediocre 58.4 pass block.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy if Reiff was the starting RT again. He doesn't upgrade the OL.
He maintains the status quo.
Who covers the OG spots? A mid-tier OG and...who else?
I'm fine upgrading C, but it doesn't sound like any other spot would actually be upgraded.

Also, where are you getting that Raimann is the "best OT prospect in years"? He's not even as good as Penei Sewell was coming out last year. If he was, he'd be projected a Top 15, if not Top 10 pick.

Hell, he isn’t even the best tackle prospect this year.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 03:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Hell, he isn’t even the best tackle prospect this year.

Correct.
A prospect is more than just potential. Readiness is also factored in (heavily).
We've seen players with crazy potential not get taken until the middle rounds because teams know it could be a multi-year effort grooming them.
On the flip side, not all players who are NFL-ready go 1st round either.
If they look to be ready but just mediocre ceilings, they'll go later in the draft.
1st rounders are usually those players who are a great blend of both.
Teams will want to get them on the field early to reap the benefits of the rookie contract cost.
If you're not having a 1st rounder start until Year 3 or even Year 4, you've lost a lot of valuable contract time.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 01:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Do you have ability to prove that?
I do pay for PFF, but I don't pay for the tier that allows me to see week-to-week.
If you don't have access to that tier either, maybe you saw someone post it somewhere online?
I just personally don't believe you because a player doesn't drop from Top 15 to 49th after playing injured for two games.
Look at Hopkins if you want an example. He played way better in 2nd half of season compared to first half, but his cumulative grade for the full season was still not great because of how poorly he did the first half.

As for Raimann's upside, sure he may have good upside, but what have you seen in Pollack that gives you high confidence he's going to turn a project into a star?
I personally haven't seen him turn any draft pick into a good starter yet.

EDIT - I found an article on Cincy Jungle from Oct 21 that says the following:
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2021/10/21/22735975/bengals-film-room-riley-reiff-vs-detroit-lions-2021-nfl-week-6

If that's what you were going off, that's not nearly as good as you made it sound.
1) Being 13th in pass blocking efficiency rating among starting RTs only. That's basically middle of pack.
2) He had already allowed 3 sacks after 6 games, which was 5th most at his position. Not exactly upper-tier performance.
3) Pass block efficiency rating is not the only thing the cumulative rating is factoring in.

So unless you have some way to prove your point, it sounds more like Reiff was more middle-of-the-pack at RT (and only when fully healthy), not a Top 15 OT.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 03:10 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Clearly you just want to debate. You know exactly what I am saying. It would be no different than for us trading for a good, not great tackle, rather than rely on a guy drafted at the end of the second

Look, you stated they couldn’t find a WR in the second round who could produce like Boyd and even you provided an example proving yourself incorrect.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 03:31 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Look, you stated they couldn’t find a WR in the second round who could produce like Boyd and even you provided an example proving yourself incorrect.

I think Wan'Dale Robinson (WR, UK) could produce like Boyd. Looks like he could be there at 63.

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 02:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I agree about the depth.
Bengals don't have good depth in a lot of places.
But the Bengals don't typically pay $5+ mill to a backup, even if they have versatility to cover multiple spots.

The Bengals mind set has changed. This is not the same type team they’ve had for 20 years. It’s new to all of them. Their mindset has to change focus. Just the 17 game season has for all teams. But then you add 3-4 in the playoffs. Protecting Burrow isn’t just about 5 starters it’s the whole group. It’s why I think they keep Hopkins, Reiff, and Spain. Next year is different. I can see them wanting to stay at reduced amounts for 1 year. I can see 2 starters from FA and one possibly from the draft.

[*Synric*]

(03-03-2022, 03:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Wan'Dale Robinson (WR, UK) could produce like Boyd. Looks like he could be there at 63.

I havent watch much of the WR group this year out of the top guys. I know Robinson is mostly slot right? I'd prefer a guy that can work both Inside/outside and can block. I'd like a guy that can work the opposite where they line up Chase and can win to replace Boyd.

Honestly I really dont like this WR group.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 03:41 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The Bengals mind set has changed. This is not the same type team they’ve had for 20 years. It’s new to all of them. Their mindset has to change focus. Just the 17 game season has for all teams. But then you add 3-4 in the playoffs. Protecting Burrow isn’t just about 5 starters it’s the whole group. It’s why I think they keep Hopkins, Reiff, and Spain. Next year is different. I can see them wanting to stay at reduced amounts for 1 year. I can see 2 starters from FA and one possibly from the draft.

You can't really say it has changed, because we haven't seen evidence of that yet.
We'll get a sense of how much it may have changed once we see FA and the draft play out.
There aren't many OL in this draft class I'd be confident in starting Week 1 and playing well.
Evan Neal
Ickey Ekwonu
Charles Cross
Tyler Linderbaum
Kenyon Green
Zion Johnson


I think maybe only 1-2 of those guys are there at 31, that's it. None I don't think will be there at 63.
I think Trevor Penning also might be able to start Week 1, but I have my hesitations with him coming from Northern Iowa.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-03-2022, 03:45 PM)Synric Wrote: I havent watch much of the WR group this year out of the top guys. I know Robinson is mostly slot right? I'd prefer a guy that can work both Inside/outside and can block. I'd like a guy that can work the opposite where they line up Chase and can win to replace Boyd.

Honestly I really dont like this WR group.

Robinson is a slot and gadget type of guy.
He looks quicker and faster than Boyd, but he's smaller.

[Bengalbug]

(03-03-2022, 03:31 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Look, you stated they couldn’t find a WR in the second round who could produce like Boyd and even you provided an example proving yourself incorrect.

LOL, you are funny.

Outside of hitting the jackpot and pure luck, Tyler boyd is better than counting on any rookie WR next year, for the packers… in the 2nd round.

[*Synric*]

(03-03-2022, 03:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Robinson is a slot and gadget type of guy.
He looks quicker and faster than Boyd, but he's smaller.

So he's more Kadarius Toney than Terrance Marshall as a slot. 

[Soonerpeace]

(03-03-2022, 03:47 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You can't really say it has changed, because we haven't seen evidence of that yet.
We'll get a sense of how much it may have changed once we see FA and the draft play out.
There aren't many OL in this draft class I'd be confident in starting Week 1 and playing well.
Evan Neal
Ickey Ekwonu
Charles Cross
Tyler Linderbaum
Kenyon Green
Zion Johnson


I think maybe only 1-2 of those guys are there at 31, that's it. None I don't think will be there at 63.
I think Trevor Penning also might be able to start Week 1, but I have my hesitations with him coming from Northern Iowa.

That’s a good list on potential starters. I said earlier 90% of what I post is my opinion but 10% a solid source. Their mind set has definitely changed in recognizing that they have to have more quality depth. 17 games vs 16 is part but 3-4 more? It’s a realization and they aren’t rebuilding any more. That part I know for sure. Plus their salary cap decisions also change when you are staring at renewing big money guys the next few years. So yes absolutely their mindset has changed.

[*Synric*]

The more and more I look at the 2022 OT Draft class the more I want Morgan Moses or Trent Brown in free agency. Moses would likely be cheaper and can do a team friendly deal that can give them options in 2023 or 2024.

Brian Allen and Morgan Moses are my top 2 Outside Free Agent targets.

[Housh]

(03-02-2022, 06:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: James Rapien asked Pollack what he's looking for in free agent OL.

Shout-out @JamesRapien for asking a great question

Frank Pollack on what he is looking for in free agent offensive linemen:

"Scheme fit, we need guys who are athletic, can run, can play at the second level in the run game"

(wide zone)

— Mike (@bengals_sans) March 2, 2022

So expect the Bengals to go after guys who are athletic, can move, and succeed in wide zone.

Expect Pollack to also look for this in the draft.

I’m loving the IQ from the coaches

Yes we want a top 3 passing attack, but we also need Mixon to get off to help Burrow and because Mixon is a 3 down back making 12 million. We have to justify that contract.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-03-2022, 04:02 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: LOL, you are funny.  

Outside of hitting the jackpot and pure luck, Tyler boyd is better than counting on any rookie WR next year, for the packers… in the 2nd round.

Um, that's what the draft is.