What Pollack wants in OL

[*ochocincos*]

(03-04-2022, 01:53 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I wonder who wrote this . . .


Oh, it was ***** me. Nine hours before you claimed only Bengals fans believe they don’t have enough money.

If the Bengals can “easily resign bates, get above average/good 2-3 OL and fill out the roster, while bringing back whoever they want of their own.  While keeping boyd and mixon” then why are you trading Boyd when the Bengals can easily do all that? You don’t like 70/1000/6 receivers? Because according to you, teams can’t find WRs like that drafted five slots after Boyd. Except for the examples which have already been pointed out. But, excluding them, it’s impossible.

Money will definitely dwindle faster than some realize.

Good OL will cost $7+ mill each.
Great OL will cost $10+ mill each.

I do expect Hill to be $7+ mill too. Ogunjobi maybe given his injury, but for sure above that if he didn't have the injury.

I'm worried Uzomah could end up going $7-8 mill. I wouldn't pay him that much though.

Bates should be $12.9 mill minimum (franchise tag).

3 new OL = $20+ mill
Starting DT = $7+ mill
Bates = $13 mill
Uzomah = $7+ mill (although I'd only go to $6mill)
------------------------------
$47+ mill

Then you add the following open positions:
Backup DT
CB4
CB5
CB6?
Backup safety
WR4
WR5
LB5
Additional depth pass rusher?

Vet minimum is just under $1 mill, so theoretically you're looking at another $8-10 mill for those backup positions.

If you make cuts, that's another position you have to fill.

I personally think only cutting Waynes will make it tight on the budget and will require some finagling to fit people in.
Moving on from one more player (Hopkins and/or Boyd) or not retaining the most expensive guy which is Bates should help make the budget easier to work with.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2022, 03:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Money will definitely dwindle faster than some realize.

Good OL will cost $7+ mill each.
Great OL will cost $10+ mill each.

I do expect Hill to be $7+ mill too. Ogunjobi maybe given his injury, but for sure above that if he didn't have the injury.

I'm worried Uzomah could end up going $7-8 mill. I wouldn't pay him that much though.

Bates should be $12.9 mill minimum (franchise tag).

3 new OL = $20+ mill
Starting DT = $7+ mill
Bates = $13 mill
Uzomah = $7+ mill (although I'd only go to $6mill)
------------------------------
$47+ mill

Then you add the following open positions:
Backup DT
CB4
CB5
CB6?
Backup safety
WR4
WR5
LB5
Additional depth pass rusher?

Vet minimum is just under $1 mill, so theoretically you're looking at another $8-10 mill for those backup positions.

If you make cuts, that's another position you have to fill.

I personally think only cutting Waynes will make it tight on the budget and will require some finagling to fit people in.
Moving on from one more player (Hopkins and/or Boyd) or not retaining the most expensive guy which is Bates should help make the budget easier to work with.

Working with the Over The Cap cap calculator:
I released Waynes, Hopkins, Perrine, and 4 bottom of the roster players (with a few more on the way after the draft.)
Signed four O line starters; Tomlinson, B. Jones, Daniels, and Moses.
Re-signed Hill, Harris, Uzomah.
Signed Rams CB Williams as CB2, Seahawks CB Jones to replace Apple.
Signed Texans WR Conley as WR4.
Signed Cardinals RB J. Conner as RB2.
I let Bates leave in free agency. Signed Texans S Reid to a 1 year deal.
After accounting for the rookie contracts I had $9.5M left for “injuries.”

My top two draft needs would be FS and 3T. Followed by depth at CB, O line, LB, and WR who can also contribute on special teams.

And I used PFF or OTC contract projections/valuations.

[pulses]

(03-04-2022, 03:46 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Money will definitely dwindle faster than some realize.

Good OL will cost $7+ mill each.
Great OL will cost $10+ mill each.

I do expect Hill to be $7+ mill too. Ogunjobi maybe given his injury, but for sure above that if he didn't have the injury.

I'm worried Uzomah could end up going $7-8 mill. I wouldn't pay him that much though.

Bates should be $12.9 mill minimum (franchise tag).

3 new OL = $20+ mill
Starting DT = $7+ mill
Bates = $13 mill
Uzomah = $7+ mill (although I'd only go to $6mill)
------------------------------
$47+ mill

Then you add the following open positions:
Backup DT
CB4
CB5
CB6?
Backup safety
WR4
WR5
LB5
Additional depth pass rusher?

Vet minimum is just under $1 mill, so theoretically you're looking at another $8-10 mill for those backup positions.

If you make cuts, that's another position you have to fill.

I personally think only cutting Waynes will make it tight on the budget and will require some finagling to fit people in.
Moving on from one more player (Hopkins and/or Boyd) or not retaining the most expensive guy which is Bates should help make the budget easier to work with.

Jelani Woods in the 3rd/4th Dude made some money yesterday!!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-04-2022, 04:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Working with the Over The Cap cap calculator:
I released Waynes, Hopkins, Perrine, and 4 bottom of the roster players (with a few more on the way after the draft.)
Signed four O line starters; Tomlinson, B. Jones, Daniels, and Moses.
Re-signed Hill, Harris, Uzomah.
Signed Rams CB Williams as CB2, Seahawks CB Jones to replace Apple.
Signed Texans WR Conley as WR4.
Signed Cardinals RB J. Conner as RB2.
I let Bates leave in free agency. Signed Texans S Reid to a 1 year deal.
After accounting for the rookie contracts I had $9.5M left for “injuries.”

My top two draft needs would be FS and 3T. Followed by depth at CB, O line, LB, and WR who can also contribute on special teams.

And I used PFF or OTC contract projections/valuations.

I would be happy with this. Sucks to lose Bates but it has to be an option to get the O-line fixed and bring back all our 
other needs. Draft Brisker at 31 in this case who I believe might end up being even better than Bates in the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2022, 04:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And I used PFF or OTC contract projections/valuations.

What is your total cash payment this year?

It cost a lot of money today to create cap space in the future.   

And how much did you account for draft picks?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2022, 06:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What is your total cash payment this year?

It cost a lot of money today to create cap space in the future.   

And how much did you account for draft picks?

Cash pay out I did not calculate so it’s something I didn’t factor in. But, even if I tried, I don’t know the answer to how much of a cash pay out they could afford this year. So you make a good point it is a consideration, but I don’t think I could answer it.

For the rookies, I used Over The Cap’s rookie pool page which lists the cap hit for every team and every draft pick.

[pulses]

(03-04-2022, 05:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I would be happy with this. Sucks to lose Bates but it has to be an option to get the O-line fixed and bring back all our 
other needs. Draft Brisker at 31 in this case who I believe might end up being even better than Bates in the NFL.

I love that idea but I only like the signing of Connor if it's a team friendly deal. We don't need to be paying a RB 2  5 or 6 mill a year. This RB class is loaded with guys in the mid rounds for much cheaper and better options IMO.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-04-2022, 08:07 PM)pulses Wrote: I love that idea but I only like the signing of Connor if it's a team friendly deal. We don't need to be paying a RB 2  5 or 6 mill a year. This RB class is loaded with guys in the mid rounds for much cheaper and better options IMO.

Perine is a player I want to see upgraded next season. I chose Conner because I think he is better in short yardage situations and a better receiver which I think helps to keep the defense guessing. And I don’t want to use a draft pick on a RB when I want to take care of other needs. But, if
you have a better suggestion of how to use the cap money to take care of one of my listed draft needs to free up a draft pick for a cheaper RB I’d like to know about it.

[Bengalbug]

(03-05-2022, 12:29 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Perine is a player I want to see upgraded next season. I chose Conner because I think he is better in short yardage situations and a better receiver which I think helps to keep the defense guessing. And I don’t want to use a draft pick on a RB when I want to take care of other needs. But, if
you have a better suggestion of how to use the cap money to take care of one of my listed draft needs to free up a draft pick for a cheaper RB I’d like to know about it.

If mixon can’t be your short yardage guy, can’t pay him 12m a year. He is too big/strong to not be the guy. 3rd and 1, in the sb, he needs to be in. Connor is a waste in that situation. At lest someone like gio offered more in the receiving game. Not sure Conner is better than mixon in that category. I’d be surprised if he was.

[pulses]

(03-04-2022, 04:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Working with the Over The Cap cap calculator:
I released Waynes, Hopkins, Perrine, and 4 bottom of the roster players (with a few more on the way after the draft.)
Signed four O line starters; Tomlinson, B. Jones, Daniels, and Moses.
Re-signed Hill, Harris, Uzomah.
Signed Rams CB Williams as CB2, Seahawks CB Jones to replace Apple.
Signed Texans WR Conley as WR4.
Signed Cardinals RB J. Conner as RB2.
I let Bates leave in free agency. Signed Texans S Reid to a 1 year deal.
After accounting for the rookie contracts I had $9.5M left for “injuries.”

My top two draft needs would be FS and 3T. Followed by depth at CB, O line, LB, and WR who can also contribute on special teams.

And I used PFF or OTC contract projections/valuations.

(03-04-2022, 05:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I would be happy with this. Sucks to lose Bates but it has to be an option to get the O-line fixed and bring back all our 
other needs. Draft Brisker at 31 in this case who I believe might end up being even better than Bates in the NFL.

Well first off them signing 4 FA OL is a pipe dream it'll never happen and we all know it. I can see them drafting a TE in the 3rd/4th and if Uzo wants big money its bye bye. If anything you sign OJ Howard on a 1 year prove it deal and like I said above draft a TE. Gonna need one after this year Sample won't be back. And since they're not signing 4 FA OL and not gonna overpay for Uzo that gives them money to sign Bates. I would draft Dameon Pierce or Alegierer from BYU for RB 2. And if you really wanna move on from Boyd trade him to NE for Shaq Mason they need another good WR badly.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-05-2022, 01:04 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: If mixon can’t be your short yardage guy, can’t pay him 12m a year. He is too big/strong to not be the guy. 3rd and 1, in the sb, he needs to be in. Connor is a waste in that situation. At lest someone like gio offered more in the receiving game. Not sure Conner is better than mixon in that category. I’d be surprised if he was.

Mixon on 3rd down:
15 attempts 23 yards 1.5 ave 9 long 1 TD 6 first downs
6 receptions 81 yards 13.5 ave 0 TD

Perine:
11 attempts 14 yards 1.3 ave 4 long 0 TD 2 first downs
13 receptions 111 yards 8.5 ave 0 TD

Conner:
32 attempts 118 yards 3.7 ave 19 long 2 TD 18 first downs
5 receptions 89 yards 17.8 ave 1 TD

Mixon converted 40% of 3rd down rushes.
Perine converted 18% of 3rd down rushes.
Conner converted 56% of 3rd down rushes.

Mixon had 42 receptions on 49 targets (87.5%) converting 11 for first downs (26%)
Perine had 27 receptions on 31 targets (87%) converting 9 for first downs (33%)
Conner had 37 receptions on 39 targets (95%) converting 18 for first downs (49%)

Tell me again how Conner is a waste converting 3rd downs. Or he doesn’t offer much as a receiver. Please. Because I love comedy.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-05-2022, 02:11 AM)pulses Wrote: Well first off them signing 4 FA OL is a pipe dream it'll never happen and we all know it. I can see them drafting a TE in the 3rd/4th and if Uzo wants big money its bye bye. If anything you sign OJ Howard on a 1 year prove it deal and like I said above draft a TE. Gonna need one after this year Sample won't be back. And since they're not signing 4 FA OL and not gonna overpay for Uzo that gives them money to sign Bates. I would draft Dameon Pierce or Alegierer from BYU for RB 2. And if you really wanna move on from Boyd trade him to NE for Shaq Mason they need another good WR badly.

First of all, I wasn’t attempting to predict what the Bengals will do during free agency. I was attempting to determine the quality of the free agents they could afford under the salary cap. And if the contracts can be structured without creating a cap hell in the future. I determined they can afford four quality free agent offensive lineman in addition to the other signings I listed without creating a cap problem.

Will they sign four O linemen? Probably not. Can they? Absolutely. And that’s what I was trying to determine. I don’t need one 4 year/$60 million FS. I need an Oline to protect the franchise QB with a surgically repaired knee last year and an MCL sprain and dislocated finger this year he is opting to forego surgery in favor of conservative treatment. (Which didn’t work for Eifert’s ankle which is why he had surgery late.)

I re-signed Uzomah. Sample is still on the roster the upcoming season. And I’m more interested in finding a LBer or S this year to possibly replace Pratt or Bell next year. Or a WR or CB with KR/PR ability. Or O line depth. And I’m always looking for pass rushers. Than I am in finding a replacement for TE2.

And I sure as shit don’t want to burn a 2nd round pick on a RB2 that may not even be ready as a 3rd down back when my priorities are to find a future starting FS and a 3T to improve the interior pass rush to rotate Hill out on 3rd downs in the first two rounds. And I can’t do that if I’m drafting a RB in the 2nd and a TE in the 3rd/4th. Especially when the RB I signed converts 56% of his 3rd down rushes, catches 95% of his targets, and converts 49% of his receptions for first downs, and had a combined 18 TDs last season.

Boyd played 74% of offensive snaps because Zac Taylor’s offense uses 3 WRs 77% of the time. Which is why I’m not trading him for Mason when I can afford the O linemen I signed.

So I don’t like any of those suggestions.

[Bengalbug]

(03-05-2022, 02:44 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Mixon on 3rd down:
15 attempts 23 yards 1.5 ave 9 long 1 TD 6 first downs
6 receptions 81 yards 13.5 ave 0 TD

Perine:
11 attempts 14 yards 1.3 ave 4 long 0 TD 2 first downs
13 receptions 111 yards 8.5 ave 0 TD

Conner:
32 attempts 118 yards 3.7 ave 19 long 2 TD 18 first downs
5 receptions 89 yards 17.8 ave 1 TD

Mixon converted 40% of 3rd down rushes.
Perine converted 18% of 3rd down rushes.
Conner converted 56% of 3rd down rushes.

Mixon had 42 receptions on 49 targets (87.5%) converting 11 for first downs (26%)
Perine had 27 receptions on 31 targets (87%) converting 9 for first downs (33%)
Conner had 37 receptions on 39 targets (95%) converting 18 for first downs (49%)

Tell me again how Conner is a waste converting 3rd downs. Or he doesn’t offer much as a receiver. Please. Because I love comedy.

Thanks for the insight.

This does not take into account the guys in front, blocking. I would expect Connor to have a huge regression, had he ran on those same situations last year with the bengals. With an upgraded line, mixon will get better.

Money can be better spent elsewhere.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-05-2022, 09:10 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Thanks for the insight.

This does not take into account the guys in front, blocking. I would expect Connor to have a huge regression, had he ran on those same situations last year with the bengals. With an upgraded line, mixon will get better.

Money can be better spent elsewhere.

You’re welcome. I like being right. You should try it some time.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-offensive-line-rankings

#16 Cardinals
#20 Bengals

Quote:Run blocking has been a problem for Arizona all season, and the success they have had on the ground is due in large part to their offensive line splits and the performance of James Conner. Pass protection has been better, though. Rodney Hudson at center has improved the overall cohesion of the group, even if his 60.3 PFF grade is the lowest of his impressive career. He allowed four pressures in 12 starts. D.J. Humphries showed his importance when he missed a game and forced a reshuffle on the line.

This team is one failed 3rd down away from a Super Bowl win because they tried to force Gio to take an unnecessary $2M pay cut when they didn’t need the cap relief.

I signed four starters on the Oline. If Mixon would be better behind a better line so would Conner. He was the last player I added.

Take him away, you’ve got $15.5M in cap space. Where would you better spend the money?

[Bengalbug]

(03-05-2022, 11:20 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re welcome. I like being right. You should try it some time.

This team is one failed 3rd down away from a Super Bowl win because they tried to force Gio to take an unnecessary $2M pay cut when they didn’t need the cap relief.

I signed four starters on the Oline. If Mixon would be better behind a better line so would Conner.

Where would you better spend the money?

Lol, you and your personal attacks. Someone must be extremely insecure to be so combative on a message board.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-05-2022, 11:59 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Lol, you and your personal attacks. Someone must be extremely insecure to be so combative on a message board.

Complaining about personal attacks while calling someone extremely insecure is the pot calling the kettle black.

I have a low tolerance for unfounded claims like James Connor is worthless on 3rd downs when if you spent 30 seconds checking before you opened your mouth, I wouldn’t need to provide you with the insight to know you shouldn’t have made the uninformed claim to begin with. It’s tiresome doing your homework for you in addition to my own.

[Bengalbug]

(03-05-2022, 12:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Complaining about personal attacks while calling someone extremely insecure is the pot calling the kettle black.

I have a low tolerance for unfounded claims like James Connor is worthless on 3rd downs when if you spent 30 seconds checking before you opened your mouth, I wouldn’t need to provide you with the insight to know you shouldn’t have made the uninformed claim to begin with. It’s tiresome doing your homework for you in addition to my own.

If we were to sign Connor, no reason to have mixon. Period. They are redundant in nature. They don’t compliment one another.

Almost identical career YPC (4.1 mixon vs 4.2 Connor). In fact, connnor had a much worse YPc last year with the better OL (3.7 v 4.1).

But sure, you are right.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-05-2022, 01:37 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: If we were to sign Connor, no reason to have mixon. Period. They are redundant in nature. They don’t compliment one another.

Almost identical career YPC (4.1 mixon vs 4.2 Connor). In fact, connnor had a much worse YPc last year with the better OL (3.7 v 4.1).

But sure, you are right.

And yet, the Bengals still used Perine on third downs who converted 18% of 3rd downs compared to Conner’s 56% while converting more than double the number of 3rd downs compared to Mixon and Perine combined while running behind a line ranked middle of the pack and only 4 spots ahead of the Bengals. I used Conner to replace Perine, not Mixon.

If you have an idea of how I could better allocate 2.16% of the salary cap I’m interested. I’m not interested in uninformed, incorrect opinions with no basis in reality because you’re too lazy to do your own research before engaging your mouth; like Conner is a waste on 3rd and 1 or you’re not sure if Conner is a better receiver when he only caught 95% of his targets which is better than both Mixon and Perine and it would take 30 seconds to Google that shit during the Information Age with your cellphone in your hand right now.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2022, 03:42 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And yet, the Bengals still used Perine on third downs who converted 18% of 3rd downs compared to Conner’s 56% while converting more than double the number of 3rd downs compared to Mixon and Perine combined while running behind a line ranked middle of the pack and only 4 spots ahead of the Bengals. I used Conner to replace Perine, not Mixon.

If you have an idea of how I could better allocate 2.16% of the salary cap I’m interested. I’m not interested in uninformed, incorrect opinions with no basis in reality because you’re too lazy to do your own research before engaging your mouth; like Conner is a waste on 3rd and 1 or you’re not sure if Conner is a better receiver when he only caught 95% of his targets which is better than both Mixon and Perine and it would take 30 seconds to Google that shit during the Information Age with your cellphone in your hand right now.

Conner is a pretty solid bigger RB2 who can fill in as a RB1.
He's shown he can make catches, putting up 34+ each season for the past 4 seasons.
He actually had fewer receptions than Mixon last year (37 vs 42) but more yards (375 vs 314).
I'd be ok with him replacing Perine, but after getting 16 TDs last season, I think he'll be too pricey for what the Bengals would be willing to spend on a RB2/3.

Depth RB is definitely cheap though for some decent production.
So many RBs hitting FA that only cost $2 mill or less last year.
You don't find many that are decent and 230+ lbs nowadays though to be that hammer.
Maybe a guy who is just above 220 would be ok.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-05-2022, 02:11 AM)pulses Wrote: Well first off them signing 4 FA OL is a pipe dream it'll never happen and we all know it. I can see them drafting a TE in the 3rd/4th and if Uzo wants big money its bye bye. If anything you sign OJ Howard on a 1 year prove it deal and like I said above draft a TE. Gonna need one after this year Sample won't be back. And since they're not signing 4 FA OL and not gonna overpay for Uzo that gives them money to sign Bates. I would draft Dameon Pierce or Alegierer from BYU for RB 2. And if you really wanna move on from Boyd trade him to NE for Shaq Mason they need another good WR badly.

Anything is possible after that fiasco EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER WITNESSED IN THE BIGGEST GAME OF ALL.

The O-line sticks out to everyone as the reason we lost, we were clearly the better team in all the other aspects as we only lost
by 3 with a bad O-line being completely outmatched. Sounds like cutting Hop is a definite possibility so need to add a Center, that
is 1 new OL, Adeniji sucks, that is 2 new OL, Prince is a backup, that is 3, Carman might not be ready, that could be 4.