What Would La’el Collins Cost in Trade?

[samhain]

(03-12-2022, 10:55 PM)phil413 Wrote: Speaking of Boyd, why not him for Collins? Especially if Gronk and CJ are here. 

We may sign one or the other, but I strongly doubt we sign both.  We have a 1a, a 1b and one of the finest slot receivers in the league.  Spending upwards of 16 mil on the TE position would be totally insane.

[pulses]

(03-12-2022, 11:41 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Taylor Moton, who I mentioned previously, just signed a 4 year - $71M deal with $43M guaranteed.  


That's almost $18M year for a guy ranked lower than Collins (Reminder: 10M per year for 3 more years and Zero guaranteed)

If the Bengals let Collins get to FA it wont be pretty.  
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That said we must be very careful, those pesky.....

I'd take Moton over LC any day of the week.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-13-2022, 12:04 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Duke Manyweather (Pro Scout) out of Dallas says Collins thinks very highly of Pollack... and there is the Willie Anderson relationship.

Just posting stuff as it comes in.

One rumor... Bengals had a deal stipulated only by a physical, Cowboys came back and nixed it for more value... according to a source from his Collins people in Baton Rouge (no idea how true it may be)

Just saw that tweet from Manyweather. Trading for Collins just makes so much sense.

[casear2727]

(03-13-2022, 01:28 AM)pulses Wrote: I'd take Moton over LC any day of the week.

You would.

Collins 80.2 > Moton 77.5 overall
Collins 74.3 < Moton 79.4 pass block
Collins 89.7 >>>>> Moton 70.7 rush block

Collin 10M > Moton 18M cap hit
Collin zero > Moton 43M guaranteed money

[CloeHokie]

(03-13-2022, 12:12 AM)casear2727 Wrote: ESPN predicts Terron Armstead signing a 4 year, $92 million ($63M guaranteed) deal with the Miami Dolphins in free agency.

The Dolphins are the main competition with Collins in my opinion... if this deal goes thru hopefully it helps us.

I hope that happens. He's been injured and is going to be expensive. Opens up other guys for us

[pulses]

(03-13-2022, 02:34 AM)casear2727 Wrote: You would.

Collins 80.2 > Moton 77.5 overall
Collins 74.3 < Moton 79.4 pass block
Collins 89.7 >>>>> Moton 70.7 pass block

Collin 10M > Moton 18M cap hit
Collin zero > Moton 43M guaranteed money

Moton's PFF has never been under 76 and Collins has multiple times. Collins has given up more sacks in his career than collins. Moton has never really been hurt played over 1000 snaps every season since his rookie year...Moton is the better long term player so YES. And as for you saying Collins was the BEST he was rated the 15th best in the league last year



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Charlie Goldsmith


@CharlieG__
[url=https://twitter.com/CharlieG__]

According to PFF, La’el Collins was the 15th ranked tackle last season. Terron Armstead ranked 26th. Trent Brown ranked 33rd. Morgan Moses ranked 40th. Eric Fisher ranked 46th. Riley Reiff ranked 49th.


 

[casear2727]

(03-13-2022, 03:37 AM)pulses Wrote: Moton's PFF has never been under 76 and Collins has multiple times. Collins has given up more sacks in his career than collins. Moton has never really been hurt played over 1000 snaps every season since his rookie year...Moton is the better long term player so YES. And as for you saying Collins was the BEST he was rated the 15th best in the league last year



[/url]






Charlie Goldsmith


@CharlieG__
[url=https://twitter.com/CharlieG__]

According to PFF, La’el Collins was the 15th ranked tackle last season. Terron Armstead ranked 26th. Trent Brown ranked 33rd. Morgan Moses ranked 40th. Eric Fisher ranked 46th. Riley Reiff ranked 49th.


 

I guess it is my job to make you look stupid.... 

I said he is the best RT and I proved this several posts ago... he is the 15th ranked tackle overall.  

You see there are 2 tackles on each oline; a LT and a RT.... do i need to go on?


It's interesting you prefer a lower rated tackle that takes up so much cap space that it would severely limit us as to who else we could sign along with the huge 45M guarantee which takes the majority of our available cash for other signing bonuses and hits our escrow tremendously hard.

But you rock on with your opinion regardless of how awful it would impact our roster and limit the other signings this team needs.



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[pulses]

(03-13-2022, 03:50 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I guess it is my job to make you look stupid.... 

I said he is the best RT and I proved this several posts ago... he is the 15th ranked tackle overall.  

You see there are 2 tackles on each oline; a LT and a RT.... do i need to go on?


It's interesting you prefer a lower rated tackle that takes up so much cap space that it would severely limit us as to who else we could sign along with the huge 45M guarantee which takes the majority of our available cash for other signing bonuses and hits our escrow tremendously hard.

But you rock on with your opinion regardless of how awful it would impact our roster and limit the other signings this team needs.



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I never said i WANTED HIM on our team I said I preferred him over Collins as a player.And as one other poster already mentioned stop cramming players down our throats and calling others stupid. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions without some wanna be GM coming in here bashing them. You sir need a reality check QUICK.

[Yogo]

(03-12-2022, 10:08 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: His ability or his contribution to the team would be excellent. He missed 20-21 straight games due to injury and suspension. If we give away a third rounder and second rounder we give away a potential Higgins and Logan Wilson. I’d rather draft at #31 a tackle and go get a top center and guard in FA.

And in terms of our drafted lineman history Ced (1st), Fisher (2nd), Price (1st)..... these surefire guys were near or higher than pick #31.  That's why attaining Collins seems vital due to our lack of knowledge scouting Linemen.  Granted Zach has drafted and hit on picks a lot better than during the Marv years.

[Yogo]

(03-12-2022, 05:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I'm trying to be respectful here, but you've got such a throbbing boner for Collins right now, that it's impossible to talk with you about it. You keep repeating the same talking points over and over and over, while also ignoring anything that doesn't fit into you're way of thinking about it. At least, that's how you're coming off.

I tried to give you a perspective on why some aren't cool with giving up a high pick for him, and you just regurgitated things you've already said 50 other times. 

Um.... actually mine is throbbing bigger than Caesars.... fact!, but I think it's great that he's pledging to walk Collins to practice and supervise his recreational time and all.  That's going above and beyond commitment.

In all seriousness.  My priority is to not see Joe end up like Andrew Luck.  Yes, there are risks, but for Joe's sake, we need this to happen.  We all should be combing the streets and keeping him in line if he joins us.

Love you guys.

[casear2727]

(03-13-2022, 05:13 AM)pulses Wrote: I never said i WANTED HIM on our team I said I preferred him over Collins as a player.And as one other poster already mentioned stop cramming players down out throats and calling others stupid. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinions without some wanna be GM coming in here bashing them. You sir need a reality check QUICK.

Well you did "misquote" me and I corrected you....

Im not a wanna be GM I only want the best blockers for our QB.  Kinda like we all used too, but then some folks changed their minds and decided to value risky draft picks over the top RT in the league... maybe too beholden to their mock drafts?

All I have done is squelch the uninformed worry of an injury that was 2 years ago and explained the non-event suspension, but people want to demand choir boy character over excellent production.  And the thing is the guy hasn't really done anything crazy to warrant this scrutiny.

If everyone is allowed to have an opinion that includes me as well, right?  My opinion is that it would be silly to want a lesser - yet way more expensive player over a better one with an extremely team friendly and inexpensive contract.


My take is that this is the most vital offseason in Bengals history.  We have an incredible opportunity to fix our number one need and then some.  This is possible because the best RT in the league had some issues the last couple of years.  But instead of taking advantage of this opportunity people like you complain about the very non-serious issues that put us in this position.

I understand I keep repeating myself but you and others will not answer which player you believe we can draft that would have a more profound impact than Collins?

Im not suggesting we offer more than it would take to get him, but if there truly is no other player at his high level the pick shouldn't matter.

If people are still concerned over Collins missing 7 tests out 187 two years ago for a substance that is no longer banned or him telling a tester he would "hook him up" if he ever tested positive for weed or missed a test, please fill us in on how that outweighs the positives this signing could have on our team? for the next 3 years?

It's simply a potential NFL player transaction that likely wont happen and regardless if it does or doesnt there isnt any need to get your feelings involved. 

[NUGDUKWE]

(03-13-2022, 07:06 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Well you did "misquote" me and I corrected you....

Im not a wanna be GM I only want the best blockers for our QB.  Kinda like we all used too, but then some folks changed their minds and decided to value risky draft picks over the top RT in the league... maybe too beholden to their mock drafts?

All I have done is squelch the uninformed worry of an injury that was 2 years ago and explained the non-event suspension, but people want to demand choir boy character over excellent production.  And the thing is the guy hasn't really done anything crazy to warrant this scrutiny.

If everyone is allowed to have an opinion that includes me as well, right?  My opinion is that it would be stupid to want a lesser - yet way more expensive player over a better one with an extremely team friendly and inexpensive contract.


My take is that this is the most vital offseason in Bengals history.  We have an incredible opportunity to fix our number one need and then some.  This is possible because the best RT in the league had some issues the last couple of years.  But instead of taking advantage of this opportunity people like you complain about the very non-serious issues that put us in this position.

I understand I keep repeating myself but you and others will not answer which player you believe we can draft that would have a more profound impact than Collins?

Im not suggesting we offer more than it would take to get him, but if there truly is no other player at his high level the pick shouldn't matter.

If people are still concerned over Collins missing 7 tests out 187 two years ago for a substance that is no longer banned or him telling a tester he would "hook him up" if he ever tested positive for weed or missed a test, please fill us in on how that outweighs the positives this signing could have on our team? for the next 3 years?

It's simply a potential NFL player transaction that likely wont happen and regardless if it does or doesnt there isnt any need to get your feelings involved. 

You guys have convinced me. I saw you mentioned a trade involving swapping our 1st for they're 2nd which doesn't seem to bad. I really like Zion Johnson but it seems like there's a decent chance he'll be gone before our 1st pick now. 

So I'm sure you mentioned it already but what's the most you would give up in a trade? What do you hope the trade looks like? 

[phil413]

(03-13-2022, 01:05 AM)samhain Wrote: We may sign one or the other, but I strongly doubt we sign both.  We have a 1a, a 1b and one of the finest slot receivers in the league.  Spending upwards of 16 mil on the TE position would be totally insane.

Boyd and Gronk go hand in hand. You're not turning down Gronk on say a 7M deal if he really wants to play with Burrow. Boyd could be the means to get Collins, keeping the high picks.  Still negotiating with CJ gives you a dynamic two TE attack in light of our OL and red zone woes in the post season. Change how you use the position rather than seeing it as 16M towards how the position has been used already. 

You could argue that WR is the deepest position available in both the draft and FA.  There are a lot of 5M range vets that can be a band aid on the way to having RT fixed.  You can also move Chase all around still especially if an average vet is descent at both the slot and outside.  Burrow loves using an empty backfield, so when Mixon/Evans line up wide in this set they're still a threat to motion back and run out of a 2 TE set with an improved line.  I like Boyd, but I like capitalizing on this more.  

[phil413]

Collins and your choice of high end 8-11M/yrs guard would do something we can't stress enough, it gives you at least 3 prime years together on "cheap" deals when Burrow needs the mega deal. It's better than having to look in another year or two if a band aid tackle is chosen or worry about an injury prone (T.Brown, Fisher) guy working out or having a guy like Moses age and having to find a replacement. That on top of Jonah handcuffing you with asking for too much especially if he is hurt again.

Give me Collins, Daniels and hopefully they can budget enough for a 5-7M/yr center after they fix DT and CB. You don't want to be forced to go corner with your high pick and hope they start if a high pick is used for Collins. If Karras would actually take the 4.33M that PFF is projecting, give me him and worse case if the guards step up you can slide Daniels over so Karras can be a super sub.

[Bengalpool]

(03-13-2022, 01:05 AM)samhain Wrote: We may sign one or the other, but I strongly doubt we sign both.  We have a 1a, a 1b and one of the finest slot receivers in the league.  Spending upwards of 16 mil on the TE position would be totally insane.

Depending on FA, I wouldn't mind if we signed Gronk (bye CJ, love you buddy) and draft Gronk's replacement in the 2nd/3rd round. McBride and Likely are who I'm thinking of.

[samhain]

(03-13-2022, 11:03 AM)phil413 Wrote: Boyd and Gronk go hand in hand. You're not turning down Gronk on say a 7M deal if he really wants to play with Burrow. Boyd could be the means to get Collins, keeping the high picks.  Still negotiating with CJ gives you a dynamic two TE attack in light of our OL and red zone woes in the post season. Change how you use the position rather than seeing it as 16M towards how the position has been used already. 

You could argue that WR is the deepest position available in both the draft and FA.  There are a lot of 5M range vets that can be a band aid on the way to having RT fixed.  You can also move Chase all around still especially if an average vet is descent at both the slot and outside.  Burrow loves using an empty backfield, so when Mixon/Evans line up wide in this set they're still a threat to motion back and run out of a 2 TE set with an improved line.  I like Boyd, but I like capitalizing on this more.  

I mean, I could get on board with that if it happened, but that's a whole lot of moving parts.  I see Gronk as basically a means to having a player that's a red zone lock on the roster.  There's just no way a DB is going to cover him regardless of their technique.  Well, maybe Derwin James, but that's about it.  My only issue with him is that you go in knowing that he's not going to play 17 games.  

Idk.  I don't see Dallas sitting there at this moment in time trying to bail salary jumping up and trading for a player like Boyd who would come on board with a decent-sized salary.  It would kind of defeat the purpose of what they are doing.

16 mil is a lot to put into a position that doesn't really require a huge investment to move this team forward.  If I'm dumping Boyd's salary it's to enable them to afford a 2nd or 3rd quality free agent OL.  You can still backfill him in the draft if this happens.  

I think it's all highly unlikely either way.  I'll be shocked if Tyler Boyd isn't a Bengal in 2022.

[CoachGeorge]

(03-12-2022, 10:01 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Interesting take.

Salaries are kind of a difficult measure due to when they were signed, bonuses, etc.

That said, in 2019 Collins signed a 5 year $50M extension with $35M Guarantee - the largest for any RT ever, and made him a top 5 highest paid tackle in the league, not just RTs.

His numbers are a little lower than his pre-injury numbers in 2019, which were crazy, but 2021 grades are still solid coming off an injury.

Pass Blocking

It looks like 4 RTs rank higher than him with pass blocking:

Johnson at 82.6
Moton 79.4
O'Neil at 78.1
Havenstein 77.4

Collins was 74.3
(Jonah 67.5, Reiff 58.4, Prince 39.7)

I'm not sure the exact stat but one Cowboy's insider podcast mentioned Dak held the ball the longest or an extremely long time (as does our boy), not sure exactly but I'll check if I get time.


Run Blocking:

Collins is at 89.7  3rd best amongst all Tackles in the NFL

Compared to the list above:

Havenstein 82.2
Johnson 76.8
Moton 70.7
O'Neil 65.9


Overall
Havenstein 83.4
Johnson 83.3. (Johnson caught a TD pass that gives him a bit of a bump)
Collins 80.2
Moton 77.5
O'Neil 73.7

*Johnson is also 3 years older than Collins and Havenstein 2 years older.


"My dominant concern is his run blocking is so much better than his pass blocking"

There is a gap but not because he isnt very good at pass blocking, his rush block is simply overwhelming and is on average 20 pts higher than the next 4 RTs...with better passing grades.


This guy is elite. His contract is almost unbelievable. 

Compared to our guys:

Collins, 8 penalties, 2 sacks

Jonah, 4 penalties, 8 sacks
Reiff, 1 penalty, 4 sacks 
Prince, 7 penalties, 3 sacks
RT Combined, 8 penalties, 7 sacks

I dont think I see your point on Collins though, Coach?   I absolutely agree with Norwell.

I have some questions on Collins that have not been mentioned here and trying to learn more about and confirm, but the guy is very good and changes our offense in my opinion.

If the entirety of your opinion is based on PFF grades that tells me you’re not an OL guy. I am. Just as there are not 13 centers higher rated than Ryan Jensen based on questionable PFF grades (he is a top 5 at the minimum), there is no way La’el’s pass blocking is top 5. Top 10 maybe, but I doubt it. Don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t object to his signing at all. I certainly wouldn’t give up our 1st and 2nd round picks for him. And there are other ways to greatly improve the pass protection of the OL (read IOL).

[casear2727]

(03-13-2022, 08:56 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: You guys have convinced me. I saw you mentioned a trade involving swapping our 1st for they're 2nd which doesn't seem to bad. I really like Zion Johnson but it seems like there's a decent chance he'll be gone before our 1st pick now. 

So I'm sure you mentioned it already but what's the most you would give up in a trade? What do you hope the trade looks like? 

Going by the Cowboys Insiders, the worst case scenario is:

Bengals get Collins and Cowboys 2nd Round (56) and Cowboys 6th Round (201) - Dallas gets the Bengals 1st Round (31)



The most popular guess is:

Bengals get Collins and Cowboys 3rd Round (88) and Cowboys 6th Round (201) - Dallas gets the Bengals 2nd Round (63)



The 2 straight up guesses:

Bengals get Collins - Dallas gets the Bengals 3rd Round (95)

Bengals get Collins - Dallas gets the Bengals 4th Round (135)



These are simply guesses from the other side, they are pretty much in agreement that the deal will be better than the Cooper deal due to Collins being a top tier player with such a team friendly contract.  

Miami and the Raiders are in a better situation regarding draft position than us.  ESPN reported Miami has a deal with Armstead worked out, not sure if that impacts them or not with Collins as they have more cap space and cash than we do.

This deal makes way too much sense for the Bengals, at least in my opinion. But who knows?

[Bengalpool]

(03-13-2022, 11:46 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Going by the Cowboys Insiders, the worst case scenario is:

Bengals get Collins and Cowboys 2nd Round (56) and Cowboys 6th Round (201) - Dallas gets the Bengals 1st Round (31)



The most popular guess is:

Bengals get Collins and Cowboys 3rd Round (88) and Cowboys 6th Round (201) - Dallas gets the Bengals 2nd Round (63)



The 2 straight up guesses:

Bengals get Collins - Dallas gets the Bengals 3rd Round (95)

Bengals get Collins - Dallas gets the Bengals 4th Round (135)



These are simply guesses from the other side, they are pretty much in agreement that the deal will be better than the Cooper deal due to Collins being a top tier player with such a team friendly contract.  

Miami and the Raiders are in a better situation regarding draft position than us.  ESPN reported Miami has a deal with Armstead worked out, not sure if that impacts them or not with Collins as they have more cap space and cash than we do.

This deal makes way too much sense for the Bengals, at least in my opinion. But who knows?

You seem to be paying more attention to this from the Cowboys side than I am. Do you think they release him? I seen a tweet this morning by some unverified account (lotta people say its legit, but idk) that the Cowboys plan on releasing him. Really hope we can work a trade out. That contract is just as attractive as Collins himself... 

[Soonerpeace]

(03-13-2022, 11:46 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Going by the Cowboys Insiders, the worst case scenario is:

Bengals get Collins and Cowboys 2nd Round (56) and Cowboys 6th Round (201) - Dallas gets the Bengals 1st Round (31)



The most popular guess is:

Bengals get Collins and Cowboys 3rd Round (88) and Cowboys 6th Round (201) - Dallas gets the Bengals 2nd Round (63)



The 2 straight up guesses:

Bengals get Collins - Dallas gets the Bengals 3rd Round (95)

Bengals get Collins - Dallas gets the Bengals 4th Round (135)



These are simply guesses from the other side, they are pretty much in agreement that the deal will be better than the Cooper deal due to Collins being a top tier player with such a team friendly contract.  

Miami and the Raiders are in a better situation regarding draft position than us.  ESPN reported Miami has a deal with Armstead worked out, not sure if that impacts them or not with Collins as they have more cap space and cash than we do.

This deal makes way too much sense for the Bengals, at least in my opinion. But who knows?

I think that the Cowboys want at minimum a #1 and a late rounder. They’ll find someone. Lots of teams desperate. But I’ve warmed up to taking Collins. If we don’t have to give up more than a 2nd rounder. Get a good center in FA and draft best available guard or tackle at #31. Still leaves corner exposed. Would like a corner @ 63