(03-19-2022, 09:40 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Limited opportunity can impact efficiency, as odd as that may sound. Hurst actually hinted at this very point in his press conference.
This may be one take we dont agree on, but I'll step out there and say Hurst will be considered a threat that defenses must account for, unlike CJ, and will surpass your predicted production... if I am wrong feel free to let me know.
The graph does not support your point though is the point, you said it did…it doesn’t. There is a reason CJ is next to Kittle and Hurst is next to guys you’d never call good.
(03-18-2022, 11:47 PM)pulses Wrote: YES I was talking to you and I've been watching football for almost 50 years so don't flatter yourself!!!
(03-19-2022, 12:22 AM)pulses Wrote: I know quite a bit more than what you wanna believe but that's ok. You're like a few in here who THINK they know it all and nobody else knows anything. Keep on believing that if it helps you sleep at night.
Ah, that explains your horrid takes and draft prospects; "curmudgeon that loves to get into pissing matches when he's clearly overmatched."
Not pimping AU or anything, but he can run circles around all of us when it comes to football knowledge. Read the room, know your role and just stop.
(03-19-2022, 09:40 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Limited opportunity can impact efficiency, as odd as that may sound. Hurst actually hinted at this very point in his press conference.
This may be one take we dont agree on, but I'll step out there and say Hurst will be considered a threat that defenses must account for, unlike CJ, and will surpass your predicted production... if I am wrong feel free to let me know.
He is right in that from an ability standpoint, they offer different things and one is not head and shoulders above the other, but Hurst is indeed a worse blocker (ESPECIALLY in pass pro). Hurst has better hands (barely; Ceej had good hands here) and is more-athletic, but doesn't have the bulk that Ceej does, so it really remains to be seen how much of an improvement he'll be.
That being said, I agree with you that he will have better numbers here than Ceej did: unless we stop targeting TEs altogether, I can definitely see a 55 catch, 600 yardish season from HH, just based on what he's capable of.
(03-19-2022, 09:42 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Good thing the Bengals said they wanted a faster pass catching TE to pair with Sample at blocker, huh...
I mean they wanted CJ…he turned them down. They settled for Hurst who is a poor blocker. The narrative can be whatever people want but the reality of the situation is we took a guy who got paid less than Mo Allie Cox. People acting like he’s the second coming are simply seeing what they want to see.
(03-19-2022, 09:47 AM)Au165 Wrote: I mean they wanted CJ…he turned them down. They settled for Hurst who is a poor blocker. The narrative can be whatever people want but the reality of the situation is we took a guy who got paid less than Mo Allie Cox. People acting like he’s the second coming are simply seeing what they want to see.
Both of these are false, the take on CJ that we offered him a lucrative deal and he turned us down is absolutely not true. No one is saying he is the 2nd coming but that we will see more production and more football plays out the TE position. CJ did nothing this year that a decent TE in the NFL couldnt. He had one really good catch down the seam that Joe put on the money but required great concentration.
I think we will see better catches and decisions with Hurst, not saying he is going to be Kittle.
(03-17-2022, 05:01 PM)casear2727 Wrote: So we let Higgins go because of Chase I guess that Higgins value?
Might be a poor analogy but you know what I mean...
Right. They drafted Pitts bc he’s a player you can build your passing offense around and make him your focal point. Julio was getting long in the tooth and they were moving him. Drafting Pitts had nothing to do with Hurst and more to do with Julio.
(03-19-2022, 09:58 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Both of these are false, the take on CJ that we offered him a lucrative deal and he turned us down is absolutely not true. No one is saying he is the 2nd coming but that we will see more production and more football plays out the TE position. CJ did nothing this year that a decent TE in the NFL couldnt. He had one really good catch down the seam that Joe put on the money but required great concentration.
I think we will see better catches and decisions with Hurst, not saying he is going to be Kittle.
I think you are misunderstanding me, I’m not saying CJ is good I’m saying Hurst isn’t as good, because his blocking, but any TE for the most part will put up similar numbers. CJ was more productive with ball in hand than hurst basically his whole career, so again from an efficiency standpoint he was more productive but not at a level that doesn’t make him replaceable. The Bengals are still in for a TE in the draft because Hurst is not viewed as a long term fix.
As to who they wanted, I know for a fact they wanted CJ back and offered him a deal that was under the Jets but not quite as much as people think.
(03-19-2022, 10:06 AM)Au165 Wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me, I’m not saying CJ is good I’m saying Hurst isn’t as good, because his blocking, but any TE for the most part will put up similar numbers. CJ was more productive with ball in hand than hurst basically his whole career, so again from an efficiency standpoint he was more productive but not at a level that doesn’t make him replaceable. The Bengals are still in for a TE in the draft because Hurst is not viewed as a long term fix.
As to who they wanted, I know for a fact they wanted CJ back and offered him a deal that was under the Jets but not quite as much as people think.
We definitely draft a TE. The number offered CJ was obviously a nonstarter as we both know. I dont think Hurst is a bad rush blocker at all, his pass blocking is more than suspect and shouldnt be his role. CJ's yards after catch was greatly increased due to Burrow in my opinion, his yards after contact is still negligible.
I think there will be a noticeable difference. I also think Hurst force us to consider him a longer term option. He and Ruckert or some other quality rookie (McBride fan myself) could be a solid pairing in the future.
(03-19-2022, 10:06 AM)Au165 Wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me, I’m not saying CJ is good I’m saying Hurst isn’t as good, because his blocking, but any TE for the most part will put up similar numbers. CJ was more productive with ball in hand than hurst basically his whole career, so again from an efficiency standpoint he was more productive but not at a level that doesn’t make him replaceable. The Bengals are still in for a TE in the draft because Hurst is not viewed as a long term fix.
As to who they wanted, I know for a fact they wanted CJ back and offered him a deal that was under the Jets but not quite as much as people think.
I think Hurst moves pretty similar to CJ after the catch and might get to top speed a tad quicker. CJ seems to be a better blocker, but I’m not convinced that Hurst is necessarily “bad” at it. Hurst also might have a bit better of a catch radius. CJ’s intangibles (leadership , locker room ) will be missed the most imo, but I think Hurst could provide a slight upgrade in some other metrics.
(03-19-2022, 10:22 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: I think Hurst moves pretty similar to CJ after the catch and might get to top speed a tad quicker. CJ seems to be a better blocker, but I’m not convinced that Hurst is necessarily “bad” at it. Hurst also might have a bit better of a catch radius. CJ’s intangibles (leadership , locker room ) will be missed the most imo, but I think Hurst could provide a slight upgrade in some other metrics.
I’m friends with Doug Farrar who is the national editor for USA Today/ Touchdown wire, I was talking to him last night about Hurst. They will have a pretty detailed breakdown of Hurst early next week I think. That should explain a bit more about some of the deficiencies I’m worried about. They do some great breakdowns on players, Doug has done film studies with players like Richard Sherman, Matt Ryan, and so on giving him the players POV on a lot of things, so I respect his take a lot.
(03-19-2022, 10:06 AM)Au165 Wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me, I’m not saying CJ is good I’m saying Hurst isn’t as good, because his blocking, but any TE for the most part will put up similar numbers. CJ was more productive with ball in hand than hurst basically his whole career, so again from an efficiency standpoint he was more productive but not at a level that doesn’t make him replaceable. The Bengals are still in for a TE in the draft because Hurst is not viewed as a long term fix.
As to who they wanted, I know for a fact they wanted CJ back and offered him a deal that was under the Jets but not quite as much as people think.
They offered him 7 million but not sure if it was 3 years or not. Zac was disappointed they lost him. Not because he felt we should have matched it or that he didn’t take it just in general. Just that it didn’t work out.
(03-19-2022, 10:32 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: They offered him 7 million but not sure if it was 3 years or not. Zac was disappointed they lost him. Not because he felt we should have matched it or that he didn’t take it just in general. Just that it didn’t work out.
It was 3 that was really like 2, same as jets, but bonus and guarantees beyond 1 for us were lower than Jets. At least that was my understanding.
(03-19-2022, 10:26 AM)Au165 Wrote: I’m friends with Doug Farrar who is the national editor for USA Today/ Touchdown wire, I was talking to him last night about Hurst. They will have a pretty detailed breakdown of Hurst early next week I think. That should explain a bit more about some of the deficiencies I’m worried about. They do some great breakdowns on players, Doug has done film studies with players like Richard Sherman, Matt Ryan, and so on giving him the players POV on a lot of things, so I respect his take a lot.
I’ve liked some of his (Farrar) stuff in the past and will be interested to see what you find out. I remember some good analysis on the 49ers pre-draft last year , as I was stumped trying to decide whom to mock to them @ qb with their pick. Also remember his game film with Sherman a while back. Does he still write for Football Outsiders ?
(03-19-2022, 10:39 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: I’ve liked some of his (Farrar) stuff in the past and will be interested to see what you find out. I remember some good analysis on the 49ers pre-draft last year , as I was stumped trying to decide whom to mock to them @ qb with their pick. Also remember his game film with Sherman a while back. Does he still write for Football Outsiders ?
I think he’s just doing the touchdown wire/USA today stuff now, it’s a pretty sweet gif for him.
(03-19-2022, 10:32 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: They offered him 7 million but not sure if it was 3 years or not. Zac was disappointed they lost him. Not because he felt we should have matched it or that he didn’t take it just in general. Just that it didn’t work out.
I was a big fan of CJ.
I am not as stoked as some about Hurst.
But there is no way Uzo is more valuable than Hurst plus $4.5 million. Not even close. Not with all the weapons we have at WR and RB.
(03-19-2022, 10:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I was a big fan of CJ.
I am not as stoked as some about Hurst.
But there is no way Uzo is more valuable than Hurst plus $4.5 million. Not even close. Not with all the weapons we have at WR and RB.
That’s really the issue, and I think why some have misinterpreted what I’ve said. Hurst is perfectly fine for what our offense is, if we lose a WR or two and he has to become our 2nd or 3rd option I may be scared but as a 4th or 5th he’s a good value.
In NY CJ very well may be the 3rd option and really help Wilson mature. He was never worth as much here as he was somewhere with less weapons.
(03-19-2022, 10:22 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: I think Hurst moves pretty similar to CJ after the catch and might get to top speed a tad quicker. CJ seems to be a better blocker, but I’m not convinced that Hurst is necessarily “bad” at it. Hurst also might have a bit better of a catch radius. CJ’s intangibles (leadership , locker room ) will be missed the most imo, but I think Hurst could provide a slight upgrade in some other metrics.
(03-19-2022, 11:03 AM)Au165 Wrote: That’s really the issue, and I think why some have misinterpreted what I’ve said. Hurst is perfectly fine for what our offense is, if we lose a WR or two and he has to become our 2nd or 3rd option I may be scared but as a 4th or 5th he’s a good value.
In NY CJ very well may be the 3rd option and really help Wilson mature. He was never worth as much here as he was somewhere with less weapons.
I think there is misinterpretation both ways actually.
At his best Hurst could push Boyd for #3 reception stats, otherwise he will be a solid 4th option. But a better 4th than CJ, I simply expect more from Hayden.
(03-19-2022, 10:36 AM)Au165 Wrote: It was 3 that was really like 2, same as jets, but bonus and guarantees beyond 1 for us were lower than Jets. At least that was my understanding.
I just know that it was for 7 million don’t the number of years or bonuses or particulars. But this person talked to the most ultimate source. But I got the impression there’s was 8 and ours 7.
I just watched his press conference. He's got a huge edge about him because he feels the Ravens and Falcons didn't give him fair opportunities. He seems out to prove he belongs in this league as a starting TE.
(03-19-2022, 11:14 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I disagree that they move similar....
Hurst is a bit more fluid and - as I mentioned - seems to get to top speed a bit quicker , but I still think it’s similar, however I suspect we are both seeing the same thing here and “disagreeing” on the semantics of what similar is.
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