Breaking: Carman rape accusation at Clemson

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2022, 02:04 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:   I believe Mike Brown made the selection and that is why is still on the roster, 

That is hilarious because the history of the NFL shows that team almost NEVER cut a second round pick after his rookie season EVEN IF HE DID NOT PLAY A SINGLE SNAP.

Anyone who thinks the Bengals should have already released Carman just does not understand the NFL.  There is no secret reason why we still have our 2nd round pick from last year on our roster.  That is just what happens 99% of the time in the NFL.

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you believe in "character" then you don't punish someone on baseless allegations.  That is not what people with "character" do.  

Based on everything I read there was clearly evidence in the girl's phone records that cleared Carman. What authority should we have to punish a guy like that?

From what I read, it sounded like they were unable to get the phone records from the phone that she had in 2018 because she was unable to recall the number and carrier. She only had a screenshot or two for whatever reason.

If I misunderstood what the article was saying there and they actually did find that 2018 number with the full text records and those records cleared him, then I retract my complaints.

But it sounds more like they just couldn't find evidence necessary to proceed to charging him. Like you said earlier in this thread, it's not unusual for a rape victim to not come forward until it is essentially impossible to get charges or a conviction and that they do tell people close to them. Those details match what happened here.

Like I said, I am not saying he was guilty of this crime and if there are more details that fully exonerate him that the Bengals had access to, so be it. But when building the culture that Zac was building, I find the selection of someone who was investigated for rape (and who definitely had sex with a 15 year old as an 18 year old, which is borderline pedophilic) just bizarre. Jackson isn't some generational talent where you can justify ignoring his red flags because of how talented he is. I just don't see why the risk was taken.

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you believe in "character" then you don't punish someone on baseless allegations.  That is not what people with "character" do.  

Based on everything I read there was clearly evidence in the girl's phone records that cleared Carman. What authority should we have to punish a guy like that?

(05-01-2022, 02:26 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: From what I read, it sounded like they were unable to get the phone records from the phone that she had in 2018 because she was unable to recall the number and carrier. She only had a screenshot or two for whatever reason.

If I misunderstood what the article was saying there and they actually did find that 2018 number with the full text records and those records cleared him, then I retract my complaints.

But it sounds more like they just couldn't find evidence necessary to proceed to charging him. Like you said earlier in this thread, it's not unusual for a rape victim to not come forward until it is essentially impossible to get charges or a conviction and that they do tell people close to them. Those details match what happened here.

Like I said, I am not saying he was guilty of this crime and if there are more details that fully exonerate him that the Bengals had access to, so be it. But when building the culture that Zac was building, I find the selection of someone who was investigated for rape (and who definitely had sex with a 15 year old as an 18 year old, which is borderline pedophilic) just bizarre. Jackson isn't some generational talent where you can justify ignoring his red flags because of how talented he is. I just don't see why the risk was taken.

This is what the article said about the phone records:

Quote:On July 1, Collins completed his investigation and submitted the case file to the assistant solicitor, Britni McCall. On Aug. 28, McCall contacted Collins to request follow-up items related to the case. That specific list of items was not included in the case file but, based on Collins’s next steps, one of the requests involved tracking down Doe’s phone records from the time of the incident and from the time she reported to police. Her mom could not remember Doe’s phone number then or the provider, but didn’t think she was on their family plan at the time and said that her daughter had gone through several phones and phone numbers and possibly service providers since then. The mom also said that her daughter had just recently gotten a new number, and she gave that number to Collins. 


Collins called Doe to tell her that the Solicitor’s Office had requested more information, and she said that she did not remember her phone number or service provider from May 2018, either. 


Collins then called back the first friend, whom Doe said she had called from Carman’s bathroom; she gave him the phone number she thought Doe was using in 2018 at the time of the incident. But the number turned out to be the same number from when Doe reported to police in May of 2020. 

On Sept. 15, Collins submitted a search warrant to Doe’s cell phone company for her phone records from May 1, 2020 to May 18, 2020. One day later, on Sept. 16, Solicitor W. Walter Wilkins determined there was insufficient evidence to support criminal charges that could be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Wilkins noted the outstanding search warrant and wrote that the case could be resubmitted with that evidence when it became available. 

By that date, Carman had started Clemson’s first game of the 2020 season, a win at Wake Forest. He was never suspended or put on probation. Clemson’s student-athlete handbook for 2020-21 says that a student-athlete will be suspended immediately if arrested for, or criminally charged with criminal sexual conduct, which Carman was not. A spokesperson for Clemson athletics told Defector that shortly before the team left to travel to the season opener at Wake Forest, Clemson Athletics’ designated staff liaison to local police got a phone call that the Solicitor’s Office would not be charging Carman. Defector requested all correspondence between Clemson police and Clemson’s athletic department and football staff regarding Carman, but records pertaining to a student are exempt from disclosure under the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA), a federal law that protects student education records. 

On March 15, 2021, Sergeant Janet Brock of Clemson police reviewed Doe’s cell phone records from the search warrant and wrote “nothing was found that could corroborate the victim’s statement.” On May 12, the case was officially closed. Defector received a copy of the search warrant cell phone records, but all the information was redacted. 

So they got the phone records from the phone number that she did not have in 2018, so it makes sense that those phone records would not have anything about the rape that occurred in 2018.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2022, 02:31 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: So they got the phone records from the phone number that she did not have in 2018, so it makes sense that those phone records would not have anything about the rape that occurred in 2018.

Still her fault for not providing the information needed to obtain the evidence to support her claim.


My point is that there is nothing "high character" about considering every person guilty of everything anyone ever says about them.

Maybe if you knew of all the cases of false claims I have seen in court you would feel different.  Or maybe if you knew about the A.J Johnson case and how it ruined his career.  

Or maybe someday someone will make a false claim about you.  Then we will see what your opinion is of punishing everyone based only on allegations with nothing to support them.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-01-2022, 12:16 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: After reflecting on this situation, I realize that it was a pipe dream to ever expect the Bengals to cut him following this story.
I think it's very likely that they already knew about this accusation when they chose to draft him. If they were okay with it then, they're going to still be okay with it now.

It's frustrating because, up to that pick (and throughout this 2022 draft), the Bengals have prioritized team leaders and high character players. I don't know why they broke that pattern to draft an alleged rapist (and arguably a pedophile, although I understand some states allow for a 15 year old and an 18 year old to have sex) who isn't even that good at football.

So what if a Ravens fan makes an allegation against one of the Bengals best players? Do they cut him?

You have to let due process play out. Likely NFL teams were aware of this before the draft and deemed it not an issue.

While some will think my Ravens fan thing couldn't happen...Bauer for the Dodgers allegations are from a Padres fan. I believe she was even on the Pad squad which I assume is some type of in stadium entertainment.

You have to let things play out in court.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2022, 02:26 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote:  (and who definitely had sex with a 15 year old as an 18 year old, which is borderline pedophilic) 

This is just a ridiculous statement.

18 year olds date 15 year olds all the time.  You seriously consider a senior in high school dating a fresman to be a 
"borderline pedophile"?  You clearly do not even understand the definition of the word.

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 02:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still her fault for not providing the information needed to obtain the evidence to support her claim.


My point is that there is nothing "high character" about considering every person guilty of everything anyone ever says about them.

Maybe if you knew of all the cases of false claims I have seen in court you would feel different.  Or maybe if you knew about the A.J Johnson case and how it ruined his career.  

Or maybe someday someone will make a false claim about you.  Then we will see what your opinion is of punishing everyone based only on allegations with nothing to support them.

I never said I wanted him punished. Just would have liked the team I root for to not take the risk of picking a player who may be a rapist. He would have been drafted by another team and would have been fine, assuming it ends here.

Whether Carman raped this woman or not, he definitely engaged in sexual activity with a 15 year old when he was 18. Based on the screenshot she shared from 2018, it seems like Carman knew he messed up that day, as well. Him refusing to be questioned and only submitting a single sentence written statement is also suspicious, as it seems like he is worried they'd pick up on the fact that he obviously realized he did something wrong, whether it was criminal or not.

Every person makes mistakes but that is all creepy and suspicious behavior that I would prefer to not be on the team I root for.

Do you understand why I feel this way?

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 02:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is just a ridiculous statement.

18 year olds date 15 year olds all the time.  You seriously consider a senior in high school dating a fresman to be a 
"borderline pedophile"?  You clearly do not even understand the definition of the word.

Yes, I would find a senior dating a freshman VERY unusual. A college freshman dating a high school freshman/sophomore would also be very unusual.

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 02:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So what if a Ravens fan makes an allegation against one of the Bengals best players? Do they cut him?

You have to let due process play out. Likely NFL teams were aware of this before the draft and deemed it not an issue.

While some will think my Ravens fan thing couldn't happen...Bauer for the Dodgers allegations are from a Padres fan. I believe she was even on the Pad squad which I assume is some type of in stadium entertainment.

You have to let things play out in court.

I understand this and I am not saying Carman should be put in jail. But it's much more complicated than just "If he wasn't convicted, then he's innocent." Deshaun Watson had 22 women accuse him of some variation of sexual assault/intimidation/inappropriate sexual behavior but, because of the nature of these incidents, there was no physical or provable evidence to take any of them to a criminal court. This case feels similar to those 22 cases, with the exception being Carman's case is much more serious than Watson's 22 (on an individual comparative basis).

Bengals fans, and NFL fans as a whole, condemned the Browns for trading for Watson, many saying that allegations are important even if they don't lead to charges or convictions. I think consistency in beliefs would lead those same fans to be skeptical of Carman in this case as well. Don't let your fandom blind you. When reading the account, it seemed credible, with multiple witnesses (including the woman's mother and friends) recounting how she did tell them months or even years before she ever came forward about it. Unless all of these people are lying just to cover her story, that means that she's felt this way about her interaction with Carman ever since it occurred.

It is possible for two people to have sex, one person to think it is consensual and the other person knowing it wasn't. This does not mean that Carman is an evil person. I think its most likely that this was an 18 year old who was horny and didn't correctly read the physical reactions of this woman because he was only concerned about his own fun. This is why it is so important that we teach teenagers and young adults the importance of consent and how it can be revoked mid-make out session.

[fredtoast]

(05-01-2022, 02:54 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Yes, I would find a senior dating a freshman VERY unusual. A college freshman dating a high school freshman/sophomore would also be very unusual.

Well things must have changed a lot in just the last few years, because generally high school girls dated guys from upper grades.

And this has nothing to do with being a pedophile.  If I were to show you several pictures of 15 year old girls I guarantee you would not be able to tell them from 18 year old girls.

Apparently you do not understand the definition of "pedophile"

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 03:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well things must have changed a lot in just the last few years, because generally high school girls dated guys from upper grades.

And this has nothing to do with being a pedophile.  If I were to show you several pictures of 15 year old girls I guarantee you would not be able to tell them from 18 year old girls.

Apparently you do not understand the definition of "pedophile"

Perhaps Statutory rapist is the better term. In South Carolina, they have Romeo and Juliet laws that say a person 18 years old or younger can sleep with a person 14 years old or older and it does not qualify as statutory rape. So if he were 1 year older, it would have been statutory and her consent would not have been relevant. 

But yes, in my high school (granted, I graduated 15 years ago now), it was honestly kind of unusual if you dated even 2 years away from your grade. My now wife had a boyfriend who was a year younger than her and her friends teased her about "robbing the cradle" so maybe my high school was the weird one, I don't know.

[Nepa]

This seems to be news only in the Cincinnati area (which someone else stated earlier). I am in northeastern PA, and the only place I see this news is on this Jungle Noise board. Even a google search took me to this board (which was at the top of the search results) and to a Paul Dehner tweet (further down, after articles on other people named Carman -- actually, mostly named Carmen). It seems to be a non-story everywhere else.

But I guess if it keeps getting pushed here, you will eventually get other fan bases interested in targeting Carman as a sex offender.

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-01-2022, 03:59 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Perhaps Statutory rapist is the better term. In South Carolina, they have Romeo and Juliet laws that say a person 18 years old or younger can sleep with a person 14 years old or older and it does not qualify as statutory rape. So if he were 1 year older, it would have been statutory and her consent would not have been relevant. 

But yes, in my high school (granted, I graduated 15 years ago now), it was honestly kind of unusual if you dated even 2 years away from your grade. My now wife had a boyfriend who was a year younger than her and her friends teased her about "robbing the cradle" so maybe my high school was the weird one, I don't know.

It was very common in my high school to for the freshman girls to date the seniors.   They also seemed to continue to date them once the boyfriends went on to college.  I don't consider that part of it a red flag, but I usually believe the woman over the man when it comes to rape.  So that part of it is a red flag for me regardless if he was charged, I still think there is at least a 50% chance that it happened unless he somehow proved his innocence (for example he had a witness or facts that could prove otherwise).  I would still prefer to draft someone with a clean background if they were equal talent.  Based on his talent and injury history, I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have drafted someone of equal talent with a cleaner background and injury history.

[Sled21]

So now according to some, an 18 year old and a 15 year old is borderline pedophilic. Seems like if I remember high school, seniors dating sophomores and freshman wasn't all that uncommon.

[Stewy]

(05-01-2022, 04:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So now according to some, an 18 year old and a 15 year old is borderline pedophilic. Seems like if I remember high school, seniors dating sophomores and freshman wasn't all that uncommon.

Very common in my high school.

[CJD]

(05-01-2022, 04:28 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: It was very common in my high school to for the freshman girls to date the seniors.   They also seemed to continue to date them once the boyfriends went on to college.  I don't consider that part of it a red flag, but I usually believe the woman over the man when it comes to rape.  So that part of it is a red flag for me regardless if he was charged, I still think there is at least a 50% chance that it happened unless he somehow proved his innocence (for example he had a witness or facts that could prove otherwise).  I would still prefer to draft someone with a clean background if they were equal talent.  Based on his talent and injury history, I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have drafted someone of equal talent with a cleaner background and injury history.

 The much bigger issue is obviously a credible victim of rape. I just felt the near-statutory nature of it was worth mentioning because it adds to the questionable judgment of our front office. 

There were plenty of talented offensive linemen in the 2021 nfl draft. We didn't need to draft the one that may have raped an underage girl (age of consent in South Carolina being 16).

[THE PISTONS]

(05-01-2022, 03:06 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I understand this and I am not saying Carman should be put in jail. But it's much more complicated than just "If he wasn't convicted, then he's innocent." Deshaun Watson had 22 women accuse him of some variation of sexual assault/intimidation/inappropriate sexual behavior but, because of the nature of these incidents, there was no physical or provable evidence to take any of them to a criminal court. This case feels similar to those 22 cases, with the exception being Carman's case is much more serious than Watson's 22 (on an individual comparative basis).

Bengals fans, and NFL fans as a whole, condemned the Browns for trading for Watson, many saying that allegations are important even if they don't lead to charges or convictions. I think consistency in beliefs would lead those same fans to be skeptical of Carman in this case as well. Don't let your fandom blind you. When reading the account, it seemed credible, with multiple witnesses (including the woman's mother and friends) recounting how she did tell them months or even years before she ever came forward about it. Unless all of these people are lying just to cover her story, that means that she's felt this way about her interaction with Carman ever since it occurred.

It is possible for two people to have sex, one person to think it is consensual and the other person knowing it wasn't. This does not mean that Carman is an evil person. I think its most likely that this was an 18 year old who was horny and didn't correctly read the physical reactions of this woman because he was only concerned about his own fun. This is why it is so important that we teach teenagers and young adults the importance of consent and how it can be revoked mid-make out session.

Maybe we should do away with the legal system and let you decide every case...

[M.W.]

(05-01-2022, 02:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still her fault for not providing the information needed to obtain the evidence to support her claim.


My point is that there is nothing "high character" about considering every person guilty of everything anyone ever says about them.

Maybe if you knew of all the cases of false claims I have seen in court you would feel different.  Or maybe if you knew about the A.J Johnson case and how it ruined his career.  

Or maybe someday someone will make a false claim about you.  Then we will see what your opinion is of punishing everyone based only on allegations with nothing to support them.

Absolutely!  Also I heard something one time that goes something like......
Innocent until PROVEN guilty??

[AtomicBlaze]

(05-01-2022, 05:44 PM)M.W. Wrote: Absolutely!  Also I heard something one time that goes something like......
Innocent until PROVEN guilty??

 Yeah in a court of law, still doesn't mean that it didn't happen, just means that it couldn't be proved.  O.J. Simpson was found innocent but how many really believe that he was.  He very well could have raped that person and only 2 people know what really happened that day.

[PDub80]

(05-01-2022, 05:52 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote:  Yeah in a court of law, still doesn't mean that it didn't happen, just means that it couldn't be proved.  O.J. Simpson was found innocent but how many really believe that he was.  He very well could have raped that person and only 2 people know what really happened that day.

Why does a news article from a website none of us have ever been to before this story = truth to you?

OJ's case had evidence along with OJ's actions of violence and abuse towards Nicole Brown that were well documented way before the murders as well as his actions during the investigations and afterwards.

Jackson Carman's case has what?

Literally NOTHING has been picked up from any major or respectable news orgs in relation to this in any significant way other than parroting the above mentioned article.