Paul Daughtery: Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2022, 03:52 PM)ATOTR Wrote: 2020: https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/zac-taylor-bengals-culture-problem

2022: https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/super-bowl-2022-how-bengals-built-winning-culture

Sure, some if fluff.  Some is based on the SB run, some is based on Burrow being so good so fast. 

This is a perfect example of what I have been talking about all the time.  Winning creates the culture of happy players not the other way around.

Deep into Zac's second season when his team is racked with injuries and losing there is no good culture or chemistry.  Problems with communication and disgruntled players in the locker room.  Then when they start winning in 2021 it is supposed to be because of some magical chemistry instead of the fact that Zac had a lot more healthy talented players to win games.

If Zac was so great at creating a culture then why was his culture a complete failure through 2 seasons and then suddenly started working in 2021?  Some one said the reason was "glaringly obvious" to "everyone except trolls" why it takes exactly 3 years to build chemistry, but I have not seen a link to where everyone learned this.  

I also think I am through with this discussion.  It is a case of people claiming to see what they want to see but being unable to prove it.  It is pointless to argue with people when it is just about their beliefs instead of facts.

[*SHRacerX*]

One thing I will offer (not to get in the Fred vs. Chemistry debate), but it was apparent from Day 1 that Joe liked ZTs vision and personality. There were MANY in the media stating how the Bengals would ruin Joe Burrow and he should ***** his way out of playing for the Bengals. Joe had a dearth of talent on the offensive line his first two years (although they tried to get some help in 2020, it just didn't pan out) yet he stayed the course and bought in to the plan 100%.

Funny how we don't hear about Burrow forcing his way out any more??? Maybe that is just Joe Burrow, some would argue, but I seriously doubt he would have stood for the shit show that was Urban Meyer. Now, you can say that comparing ZT to the flaming turd Meyer is like comparing a model to the average female steelers fan, but still....Joe has been in ZTs camp from day 1 and never wavered. Ditto EVERY player he has brought in via FA and the draft. It says something to me.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2022, 10:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One thing I will offer (not to get in the Fred vs. Chemistry debate), but it was apparent from Day 1 that Joe liked ZTs vision and personality.  There were MANY in the media stating how the Bengals would ruin Joe Burrow and he should ***** his way out of playing for the Bengals.  Joe had a dearth of talent on the offensive line his first two years (although they tried to get some help in 2020, it just didn't pan out) yet he stayed the course and bought in to the plan 100%.

Funny how we don't hear about Burrow forcing his way out any more???  Maybe that is just Joe Burrow, some would argue, but I seriously doubt he would have stood for the shit show that was Urban Meyer.  Now, you can say that comparing ZT to the flaming turd Meyer is like comparing a model to the average female steelers fan, but still....Joe has been in ZTs camp from day 1 and never wavered.  Ditto EVERY player he has brought in via FA and the draft.  It says something to me.

Good point.

I remember when people were attacking Zac for having Burrow throw the ball too much in 2020 or play too much in an empty backfield, but that is exactly what Joe wanted.  In 2020 the only chance we had of winning any games was Burrow throwing the ball.  Joe would have raised hell if Zac has said he was going to change the game plan to "play it safe" or try to "protect" Burrow.

[Tony]

(05-03-2022, 07:13 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: They’ll still take a guy with character concerns

ie, Jackson Carman

Ehhh, just some **** looking for a payday... 

[Big_Ern]

(05-05-2022, 06:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well, why the hell didn't he do it in 2020?

DO NOT DODGE THIS QUESTION. IT'S BRILLIANT

Needed more time and roster churn 

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2022, 12:17 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Needed more time and roster churn 

Why?  Where is the book where all of these rules are written.  Why does 2 full season yield zero results but then it magically works in year three?  Seems much more likely that we started winning in 2021 because we had so many more healthy and talented players.  

The Bengals were not winning because the players were happy and getting along.  Instead the players were happy and getting along because the Bengals were winning.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-05-2022, 10:34 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You mailbox is full I sent you a message or tried lol

Alright, need to clear my messages again lol

[ATOTR]

The biggest culture/team mentality shift is very simple to identify.

Burrow over dalton.

Dalton was a loser. A meek, Noodle armed, nice guy, backup qb that made his entire offense worse by being on the field.

They finally fixed that 8 year issue. And everything else is easier from there.

No one believed in Andy. They had to build the whole team and offense around his multitude of glaring deficiencies

[*bfine32*]

(05-06-2022, 10:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote:   It is pointless to argue with people when it is just about their beliefs instead of facts.

(05-06-2022, 12:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals were not winning because the players were happy and getting along.  Instead the players were happy and getting along because the Bengals were winning.

I feel ya..

JB addressed the improved culture after the 1st game of last year

[*jason*]

(05-06-2022, 01:12 PM)ATOTR Wrote: The biggest culture/team mentality shift is very simple to identify.

Burrow over dalton.

Dalton was a loser. A meek, Noodle armed, nice guy, backup qb that made his entire offense worse by being on the field.

They finally fixed that 8 year issue. And everything else is easier from there.

No one believed in Andy. They had to build the whole team and offense around his multitude of glaring deficiencies

Dalton is 2-0 vs the culture...

[ATOTR]

(05-06-2022, 03:16 PM)jason Wrote: Dalton is 2-0 vs the culture...

He’s a backup qb with a 80 rating over his last 4 years. Weeee!

Bengals didn’t want him

Cowboys didn’t want to keep him

Bears didn’t want him back either

[Big_Ern]

(05-06-2022, 12:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why?  Where is the book where all of these rules are written.  Why does 2 full season yield zero results but then it magically works in year three?  Seems much more likely that we started winning in 2021 because we had so many more healthy and talented players.  

The Bengals were not winning because the players were happy and getting along.  Instead the players were happy and getting along because the Bengals were winning.

Took three years to go from losers to SB appearance.  Major roster turn and help from unreal QB and WR play.  I stand corrected, they were low in penalties in 2020 too.  No book, just common sense that culture takes time to build and new faces.  we see it, Doc sees it, you fight it for fighting sake. Write in to Doc please and tell him he is wrong. 

[Soonerpeace]

(05-06-2022, 12:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why?  Where is the book where all of these rules are written.  Why does 2 full season yield zero results but then it magically works in year three?  Seems much more likely that we started winning in 2021 because we had so many more healthy and talented players.  

The Bengals were not winning because the players were happy and getting along.  Instead the players were happy and getting along because the Bengals were winning.

The players were echoing the culture change long before they were even given a remote chance of winning the division. I’ll admit the culture change has to be accompanied by winning but winning doesn’t guarantee the culture change of confidence to the Conference Championship and Super Bowl or even a playoff win. You don’t win all those close games w/o confidence in your coaches and teammates.

[*jason*]

What a silly ass argument. Enjoy the wins while they last.

[Big_Ern]

(05-06-2022, 10:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of what I have been talking about all the time.  Winning creates the culture of happy players not the other way around.

Deep into Zac's second season when his team is racked with injuries and losing there is no good culture or chemistry.  Problems with communication and disgruntled players in the locker room.  Then when they start winning in 2021 it is supposed to be because of some magical chemistry instead of the fact that Zac had a lot more healthy talented players to win games.

If Zac was so great at creating a culture then why was his culture a complete failure through 2 seasons and then suddenly started working in 2021?  Some one said the reason was "glaringly obvious" to "everyone except trolls" why it takes exactly 3 years to build chemistry, but I have not seen a link to where everyone learned this.  

I also think I am through with this discussion.  It is a case of people claiming to see what they want to see but being unable to prove it.  It is pointless to argue with people when it is just about their beliefs instead of facts.

Marvin had great teams that self imploded in the playoffs. Completely due to culture and character. Two things Zac said he was going to emphasize

[*bfine32*]

(05-06-2022, 08:56 PM)jason Wrote: What a silly ass argument. Enjoy the wins while they last.

They're not playing right now. So we'll argue to pass the time. 

[Soonerpeace]

(05-06-2022, 10:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of what I have been talking about all the time.  Winning creates the culture of happy players not the other way around.

Deep into Zac's second season when his team is racked with injuries and losing there is no good culture or chemistry.  Problems with communication and disgruntled players in the locker room.  Then when they start winning in 2021 it is supposed to be because of some magical chemistry instead of the fact that Zac had a lot more healthy talented players to win games.

If Zac was so great at creating a culture then why was his culture a complete failure through 2 seasons and then suddenly started working in 2021?  Some one said the reason was "glaringly obvious" to "everyone except trolls" why it takes exactly 3 years to build chemistry, but I have not seen a link to where everyone learned this.  

I also think I am through with this discussion.  It is a case of people claiming to see what they want to see but being unable to prove it.  It is pointless to argue with people when it is just about their beliefs instead of facts.

This was 10-1-21 from C J Uzomah: This is just a new team. I honestly, it's like an afterthought. The past is the past right now," Uzomah said after he got a game ball. "I am just focused on this team and the culture and the people we have on this team are completely different than any team that I've had since I've been here so we just know. If it's a tight game we know in our heads we are going to win and we have to go out there and execute. We know we will.

Fred if you want to believe there were not culture change foundations laid prior to winning so be it. But it absolutely demolishes any credibility you have on any subject matter. That’s unfortunate

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2022, 09:32 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Fred if you want to believe there were not culture change foundations laid prior to winning so be it. But it absolutely demolishes any credibility you have on any subject matter. That’s unfortunate

Actually it does not destroy my credibility because here is an article from late in the 2021 season explaining how the "culture" was crap for the Bengals.   https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/zac-taylor-bengals-culture-problem

And kind of comical that you post a quote from a time when the Bengals were off to their best start in years (4-2) to prove that the culture change really came before the winning.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-07-2022, 12:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually it does not destroy my credibility because here is an article from late in the 2021 season explaining how the "culture" was crap for the Bengals.   https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/zac-taylor-bengals-culture-problem

And kind of comical that you post a quote from a time when the Bengals were off to their best start in years (4-2) to prove that the culture change really came before the winning.

I guess your author Jesse Elise had a change of heart after she dug further LOL:

C J Uzomah: The 2021 season has been very different from the first two years under head coach Zac Taylor. A big shift in the locker room culture came when players started holding each other accountable. The overall mindset has shifted to a common goal of not just winning in the future, but winning now.

“We are treating each other like brothers," Uzomah said. “If I say something to TB (Tyler Boyd) or if TB says something to me we aren’t taking it personally. We know what it takes to win the game and what it takes to be the best that we can be for the team."

Changes were made to Cincinnati’s staff and key pieces were added to the roster, allowing the culture to shift in the right direction.

“We aren’t taking personal digs at each other, it’s truly uplifting and not to say that it wasn’t completely like that in the past, but it’s on another level this year," Uzomah explained. “It’s going to take some time and I think right now what we have in the locker room with the pieces that we’ve added, the people that are buying into the culture, the connection, the chemistry we have is just unique.”

And we all know the former players that were her sources were the ones ruining the culture

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/cincinnati-bengals-tight-end-cj-uzomah-details-about-achilles-recovery-player-chemistry

[TecmoBengals]

(05-06-2022, 10:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of what I have been talking about all the time.  Winning creates the culture of happy players not the other way around.

It's not one or the other. Zac consistently talks about building a culture of football players who like all-things football: the extra practices, receiving coaching, putting in time with other players, and a multitude of other activities that professional players experience. He's been referring to it as football-character. Players invested in Zac's way contributes to the winning; as you said, winning equally creates a happy environment. Winning enhances the existing organizational and team culture.

If you want to maintain winning exceeds Zac's other talking points about football-character I tend to agree; however, I'm not dismissing it as only a product of winning.