Who is Zach Carter ?

[*bengalfan74*]

He was a pick I kinda scratched my head on Admittedly I didn't know much about him. This article breaks him down pretty good. I dunno perhaps he can fit in ?

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/film-breakdown-what-zachary-carter-brings-bengals-defense

There's also a good piece on just who is our LG down at the bottom of the page.

[*psychdoctor*]

(05-11-2022, 12:01 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: He was a pick I kinda scratched my head on Admittedly I didn't know much about him. This article breaks him down pretty good. I dunno perhaps he can fit in ?

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/film-breakdown-what-zachary-carter-brings-bengals-defense

There's also a good piece on just who is our LG down at the bottom of the page.

Nice find.  In my mind Carter will be compared to Winfrey.  I think Winfrey has a better first step The Carter is more versatile he's sort of reminds me of Frosty Rucker.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 12:01 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: There's also a good piece on just who is our LG down at the bottom of the page.

Don't waste your time on that video.  Just some guy making up a bunch of stuff.  No different from the opinion of anyone here who does not like Carman.

He even attacked Carman for being sick to his stomach during the Lions game.  Claimed that Carman would NEVER mature or work hard.  Spent five minutes talking about the rape story then said it didn't matter.

Clearly just a Carman hater.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-11-2022, 12:24 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Nice find.  In my mind Carter will be compared to Winfrey.  I think Winfrey has a better first step The Carter is more versatile he's sort of reminds me of Frosty Rucker.

IIRC Rucker had a couple decent seasons with us. I would be happy if he develops into a rotational kinda guy that makes a play now and again.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-11-2022, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't waste your time on that video.  Just some guy making up a bunch of stuff.  No different from the opinion of anyone here who does not like Carman.

He even attacked Carman for being sick to his stomach during the Lions game.  Claimed that Carman would NEVER mature or work hard.  Spent five minutes talking about the rape story then said it didn't matter.

Clearly just a Carman hater.

I did find it a bit odd that he started off saying he wasn't getting into the Carman rape story but then went on about it. But the thing I raised one eyebrow about was the piano man/M.B. connection to Carman. And Carman does break the mold of ZT picks. Perhaps Carman was M.B. throwing his hat back in the ring ?

I'm thinking I heard that a ways back but can't remember for sure ? Getting old 

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 12:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: But the thing I raised one eyebrow about was the piano man/M.B. connection to Carman. And Carman does break the mold of ZT picks. Perhaps Carman was M.B. throwing his hat back in the ring ?

You can't do that.

You can't praise Zac for the picks you like and then pretend that he has no control over who we draft when you don't like the pick.

I don't believe that our previous second round pick Tee Higgins was a captain at Clemson.  Since that was an "exception" to Zac's rule does that mean Mike Brown gets credit for the Higgins pick also?

[fredtoast]

Sorry to sidetrack this thread to talk about Carman. Back to Taylor.

I think he fits well with what we need. He was productive in the toughest conference in the nation. Don't know if he will ever be a big star, but D-linemen have to play more in rotation than any other position group. I think Carter will see a lot of snaps as a rookie and be a key part of our defense for a few years.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-11-2022, 12:24 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Nice find.  In my mind Carter will be compared to Winfrey.  I think Winfrey has a better first step The Carter is more versatile he's sort of reminds me of Frosty Rucker.

Carter definitely would give me Rucker/Fanene vibes if used that way, but it sounds like the Bengals want to grow Carter into a full-time IDL, not a base 4-3 DE who swings inside on nickel.

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-11-2022, 01:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carter definitely would give me Rucker/Fanene vibes if used that way, but it sounds like the Bengals want to grow Carter into a full-time IDL, not a base 4-3 DE who swings inside on nickel.

My guess would be they'll lean him inside but will push him out when needs be.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-11-2022, 12:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't do that.

You can't praise Zac for the picks you like and then pretend that he has no control over who we draft when you don't like the pick.

I don't believe that our previous second round pick Tee Higgins was a captain at Clemson.  Since that was an "exception" to Zac's rule does that mean Mike Brown gets credit for the Higgins pick also?

Tee Higgins was not a captain. Most captains are seniors, and Tee came out early. But Zac wanted players from winning cultures and team leaders. It’s got to be sad in your world. https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/.amp/news/tee-higgins-raising-money-scholarships

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 02:01 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Tee Higgins was not a captain. Most captains are seniors, and Tee came out early. But Zac wanted players from winning cultures and team leaders. It’s got to be sad in your world. https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/.amp/news/tee-higgins-raising-money-scholarships

Jackson Carman played on the same a National Championship team as Higgins.

I would say it is sad in your world where you don't know this, but then I remembered that ignorance is bliss.

[Stewy]

(05-11-2022, 12:24 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Nice find.  In my mind Carter will be compared to Winfrey.  I think Winfrey has a better first step The Carter is more versatile he's sort of reminds me of Frosty Rucker.

There really is no comparison between them IMO.  The next few points aren't pointed directly at you Psychodocter, but more a result of the continued ill-formed narrative from several posts.

#1 - Carter almost exclusively played inside his Sr. Yr, vs. Winfrey Outside
#2 - Carter was far more productive inside, than Winfrey was outside
#3 - We exclusively saw/see him as a DT, thus many ill-informed people here and some in the media, saw him as a DE, thus the Winfrey comparisons and the poor draft grade given to the pick
#4 - Winfrey dropped like a stone because he was a Combine, Sr. Bowl work out wonder that produced LESS in college at DE, than Carter did at DT and Carter against far superior competition.  
#5 - Duke Tobin and the lead scout, in separate post draft interviews basically said most of their decisions are made from tape and interviews.  Whereas, with the combine and Sr. Bowl etc. are no more than small confirmations but never of their other conclusions.  They look at those things and add it to the data, but they will not influence big decision points.  What a player puts on tape is really all that matters to them from a skill perspective.
#5a - In other words, anyone who believes, that the combine and Sr. Bowl can "Make someone a lot of money" or can "Significantly help their draft status" just isn't paying attention to how GOOD teams actually evaluate players.  
#6 - A negative example, the #1 pick in the draft, Travon Walker, has all the measurables in the world, but he didn't have superior production on the field.  As a matter of fact, Zach Cater had extremely similar stats over the last two years playing mostly inside, vs. Walker outside, both against similar SEC competition.  Personally I think Travon is going to be a medial NFL player, and produce like he did in college with medial to low results.  When you see someone shooting up draft boards in the last two weeks before the draft, they almost never reach the potential of their pick.  It is absolutely a Jaguars type move. 

I'm not saying anything about Carter's future potential, but the comparisons to Winfrey need to stop because they were different players on the Bengals Board, regardless of what the talking heads say or said.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-11-2022, 01:27 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carter definitely would give me Rucker/Fanene vibes if used that way, but it sounds like the Bengals want to grow Carter into a full-time IDL, not a base 4-3 DE who swings inside on nickel.

Exactly. We need to compare Carter to Ogunjobi, that is who he is expected to at the very least buffer the blow of losing Larry.

Carter looks like he has the body to be a 3-tech and he was a very good pass rusher as an End at Florida getting 17 sacks.

Needs to hit the weight room to handle the IOL of the NFL though.

[pulses]

(05-11-2022, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Jackson Carman played on the same a National Championship team as Higgins.

I would say it is sad in your world where you don't know this, but then I remembered that ignorance is bliss.

Ignorance is Bliss indeed !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEy4dMTccgo

[Soonerpeace]

(05-11-2022, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Jackson Carman played on the same a National Championship team as Higgins.

I would say it is sad in your world where you don't know this, but then I remembered that ignorance is bliss.

Jackson Carman? Didn’t know he was part of our conversation. Your bunny trails are famous on this message board LMAO. I knew he played for Clemson. He was not a captain but he got the true rock award. But this bunny trail has definitely thrown me. Have you had your nap? I know you log out about this time and come back around dinner?

[BenZoo2]

(05-11-2022, 02:14 PM)Stewy Wrote: There really is no comparison between them IMO.  The next few points aren't pointed directly at you Psychodocter, but more a result of the continued ill-formed narrative from several posts.

#1 - Carter almost exclusively played inside his Sr. Yr, vs. Winfrey Outside
#2 - Carter was far more productive inside, than Winfrey was outside
#3 - We exclusively saw/see him as a DT, thus many ill-informed people here and some in the media, saw him as a DE, thus the Winfrey comparisons and the poor draft grade given to the pick
#4 - Winfrey dropped like a stone because he was a Combine, Sr. Bowl work out wonder that produced LESS in college at DE, than Carter did at DT and Carter against far superior competition.  
#5 - Duke Tobin and the lead scout, in separate post draft interviews basically said most of their decisions are made from tape and interviews.  Whereas, with the combine and Sr. Bowl etc. are no more than small confirmations but never of their other conclusions.  They look at those things and add it to the data, but they will not influence big decision points.  What a player puts on tape is really all that matters to them from a skill perspective.
#5a - In other words, anyone who believes, that the combine and Sr. Bowl can "Make someone a lot of money" or can "Significantly help their draft status" just isn't paying attention to how GOOD teams actually evaluate players.  
#6 - A negative example, the #1 pick in the draft, Travon Walker, has all the measurables in the world, but he didn't have superior production on the field.  As a matter of fact, Zach Cater had extremely similar stats over the last two years playing mostly inside, vs. Walker outside, both against similar SEC competition.  Personally I think Travon is going to be a medial NFL player, and produce like he did in college with medial to low results.  When you see someone shooting up draft boards in the last two weeks before the draft, they almost never reach the potential of their pick.  It is absolutely a Jaguars type move. 

I'm not saying anything about Carter's future potential, but the comparisons to Winfrey need to stop because they were different players on the Bengals Board, regardless of what the talking heads say or said.

That’s a good breakdown, thanks for posting. I think a lot of us here took stock in the fact that the bengals brought in Winfrey for a visit and there really wasn’t much talk of carter. Nice little smokescreen.

It doesn’t really matter to me as long as long as they got it right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 02:44 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Jackson Carman? Didn’t know he was part of our conversation.  But this bunny trail has definitely thrown me. 

Sorry the trail was too complicated for you to follow.

here, let me lead you by the hand.  Maybe you can follow it then.

(05-11-2022, 12:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  And Carman does break the mold of ZT picks. 

(05-11-2022, 12:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Our previous second round pick Tee Higgins was a captain at Clemson.  Since that was an "exception" to Zac's rule does that mean Mike Brown gets credit for the Higgins pick also?

(05-11-2022, 02:01 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Tee Higgins was not a captain. Most captains are seniors, and Tee came out early. But Zac wanted players from winning cultures and team leaders. It’s got to be sad in your world. https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/.amp/news/tee-higgins-raising-money-scholarships

there.  I know 3 steps is a lot for you, but hopefully this will help you understand what we are discussing.

[CJD]

(05-11-2022, 02:14 PM)Stewy Wrote: There really is no comparison between them IMO.  The next few points aren't pointed directly at you Psychodocter, but more a result of the continued ill-formed narrative from several posts.

#1 - Carter almost exclusively played inside his Sr. Yr, vs. Winfrey Outside
#2 - Carter was far more productive inside, than Winfrey was outside
#3 - We exclusively saw/see him as a DT, thus many ill-informed people here and some in the media, saw him as a DE, thus the Winfrey comparisons and the poor draft grade given to the pick
#4 - Winfrey dropped like a stone because he was a Combine, Sr. Bowl work out wonder that produced LESS in college at DE, than Carter did at DT and Carter against far superior competition.  
#5 - Duke Tobin and the lead scout, in separate post draft interviews basically said most of their decisions are made from tape and interviews.  Whereas, with the combine and Sr. Bowl etc. are no more than small confirmations but never of their other conclusions.  They look at those things and add it to the data, but they will not influence big decision points.  What a player puts on tape is really all that matters to them from a skill perspective.
#5a - In other words, anyone who believes, that the combine and Sr. Bowl can "Make someone a lot of money" or can "Significantly help their draft status" just isn't paying attention to how GOOD teams actually evaluate players.  
#6 - A negative example, the #1 pick in the draft, Travon Walker, has all the measurables in the world, but he didn't have superior production on the field.  As a matter of fact, Zach Cater had extremely similar stats over the last two years playing mostly inside, vs. Walker outside, both against similar SEC competition.  Personally I think Travon is going to be a medial NFL player, and produce like he did in college with medial to low results.  When you see someone shooting up draft boards in the last two weeks before the draft, they almost never reach the potential of their pick.  It is absolutely a Jaguars type move. 

I'm not saying anything about Carter's future potential, but the comparisons to Winfrey need to stop because they were different players on the Bengals Board, regardless of what the talking heads say or said.

In this article from PFF, it sounds like he played mostly edge in 2021

Quote:The 6-foot-4-inch, 282-pounder has been viewed by some as a tweener, unsure of where he will fit in the pros. Carter played all along the defensive line during his time in Gainesville. He split reps inside and outside in 2020, taking 227 snaps from outside the tackle, 227 over the B-gap and 178 over the tackle. He moved primarily to the typical edge spot outside the tackle in 2021, registering 320 snaps from that position and only 137 from the B-gap and 147 over the tackle. 

I'm not an expert on defensive line gaps and positioning, but the B gap is the gap between the guard and the tackle. I assume those 137 snaps are him lining up as a 3T. The 147 over the tackle I assume are him lining up as a 5T. So 227 snaps outside the tackle would be as a 4-3 defensive end.

Am I misinterpreting this?

[Hammerstripes]

(05-11-2022, 02:14 PM)Stewy Wrote: There really is no comparison between them IMO.  The next few points aren't pointed directly at you Psychodocter, but more a result of the continued ill-formed narrative from several posts.

#1 - Carter almost exclusively played inside his Sr. Yr, vs. Winfrey Outside
#2 - Carter was far more productive inside, than Winfrey was outside
#3 - We exclusively saw/see him as a DT, thus many ill-informed people here and some in the media, saw him as a DE, thus the Winfrey comparisons and the poor draft grade given to the pick
#4 - Winfrey dropped like a stone because he was a Combine, Sr. Bowl work out wonder that produced LESS in college at DE, than Carter did at DT and Carter against far superior competition.  
#5 - Duke Tobin and the lead scout, in separate post draft interviews basically said most of their decisions are made from tape and interviews.  Whereas, with the combine and Sr. Bowl etc. are no more than small confirmations but never of their other conclusions.  They look at those things and add it to the data, but they will not influence big decision points.  What a player puts on tape is really all that matters to them from a skill perspective.
#5a - In other words, anyone who believes, that the combine and Sr. Bowl can "Make someone a lot of money" or can "Significantly help their draft status" just isn't paying attention to how GOOD teams actually evaluate players.  
#6 - A negative example, the #1 pick in the draft, Travon Walker, has all the measurables in the world, but he didn't have superior production on the field.  As a matter of fact, Zach Cater had extremely similar stats over the last two years playing mostly inside, vs. Walker outside, both against similar SEC competition.  Personally I think Travon is going to be a medial NFL player, and produce like he did in college with medial to low results.  When you see someone shooting up draft boards in the last two weeks before the draft, they almost never reach the potential of their pick.  It is absolutely a Jaguars type move. 

I'm not saying anything about Carter's future potential, but the comparisons to Winfrey need to stop because they were different players on the Bengals Board, regardless of what the talking heads say or said.

Depends on the team.  Some teams really value athletic ability.  And don't kid yourself, if there's no combine, we would have had a different number one overall pick this year.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-11-2022, 03:05 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: That’s a good breakdown, thanks for posting.  I think a lot of us here took stock in the fact that the bengals brought in Winfrey for a visit and there really wasn’t much talk of carter.  Nice little smokescreen.

It doesn’t really matter to me as long as long as they got it right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's also possible the Bengals initially liked Winfrey, brought him in for a private visit, and then liked him less after the visit and thus turned their attention to other IDL.

I've been on the Carter train for a while now (go search for my old mocks back in the Fall), so I'm a believer he can turn into something worthwhile.