Paul Daughtery: Doc: Zac Taylor came in strutting, without actually strutting. He was

[George Cantstandya]

(05-11-2022, 10:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengal defense got worse when Dunlap left in 2020.

Not really or at least not a very noticeable difference.  Dunlop was traded on the 28th of October.  At that point they played 7 games.   During those 7 games the Bengals opponents averaged 27.7 points per game , 261 passing yards allowed, and 133 rushing yards allowed.

After that during the final nine games Bengals opponents averaged 25.5 points per game, 225 passing yards allowed and 159 rushing yards allowed.  As for the later rushing yards, that is a bit skewed because of the final game of the season they gave up 404 rushing yards to the Ravens.  If you exclude that game they gave up on average 129 rushing yards over the previous 8 games. 

So to me it does not seem like the defense got significantly worse after Dunlop left.  The only sort of noticeable difference was rushing yards allowed, 133 to 159 and again that final game against the Ravens skewed those stats a bit. I can't recall if the Bengals were playing a bunch of backups in that final game due to it being a lost season. 

Of course you could argue they played some more difficult opponents during those first 7 games, notably the Browns twice and the Ravens once. Also of note Burrow didn't play the last 6 games of the season so the offense was hampered possibly giving the opposing teams more offensive opportunities. Given that, I still don't think there is that big of a difference before and after Dunlop.

Edit here is my data for calculating those averages:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cin/2020.htm

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-11-2022, 10:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all thank you for admitting that you "can't help" but assume facts that support Zac.  I don't have that problem.  I am capable at looking at the situation objectively.

Bengal defense got worse when Dunlap left in 2020.

Yes, everyone was in a better mood in 2021 when we had enough healthy talent to win some games.  And, of course, it helped that we got rid of Zac's boys Bobby Hart and Jim Turner.

The Bengals defense might have statistically gotten worse when Dunlap left, but there are lots of rational explanations for that.  Strength of opponents down the stretch, injuries, etc.  What I was saying dealt with the fact that the defense seemed to lose the "noise" that was labeled as accusations from that reporter when those guys left.  

I don't care if you have all the talent in the world (and Dunlap was far from that...) if you openly criticize the coaches, become a huge distraction, and ignore any personal accountability.  He was a cancer in the end and I am glad he is gone.  

[George Cantstandya]

(05-11-2022, 04:19 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: The Bengals defense might have statistically gotten worse when Dunlap left, but there are lots of rational explanations for that.  Strength of opponents down the stretch, injuries, etc.  What I was saying dealt with the fact that the defense seemed to lose the "noise" that was labeled as accusations from that reporter when those guys left.  

I don't care if you have all the talent in the world (and Dunlap was far from that...) if you openly criticize the coaches, become a huge distraction, and ignore any personal accountability.  He was a cancer in the end and I am glad he is gone.  

They didn't really get statistically worse as I posted above.  The difference before and after Dunlop in opponents points scored, average passing yards allowed and average rushing yards allowed were marginal at best.  But to be fair IMO the strength of schedule was slightly weaker in the last half of the year, down the stretch.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 04:19 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't care if you have all the talent in the world (and Dunlap was far from that...) if you openly criticize the coaches, become a huge distraction, and ignore any personal accountability.  He was a cancer in the end and I am glad he is gone.  

I don't think you understand what happened.

Dunlap did those things intentionally so that he could get out of Cincinnati.  He did not do it before Zac was head coach here.  He has not done it in Seattle.  His behavior was reaction to the coaches' actions.  Only time he has been a "cancer" was when the coaches did not treat him fairly.

[George Cantstandya]

(05-11-2022, 06:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap did those things intentionally so that he could get out of Cincinnati.

No offense but what is your source on this?  I did some quick googling but can't find anything.

Here is what I found:

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/carlos-dunlap-reflects-on-break-up-with-bengals

Quote:"I had a million and one fans asking me why I wasn't playing and this, that and the third," Dunlap told Zach Gelb on CBS Sports Radio when asked about his final weeks in Cincinnati. "One of my friends made me aware of an article that just came out where the coaches said I was frustrated and not handling the demotion and/or new role properly, and I just wanted to give people a clear picture of what they were asking me to do. I don't think they [people] understood how low I was on the depth chart."


Dunlap infamously posted a picture of the Bengals' depth chart before their Week 7 matchup against the Browns. It didn't list the entire team, but it did prove that the two-time Pro Bowler was third on Cincinnati's defensive end depth chart.

"Obviously it had a negative impact with the team," Dunlap said. "They expressed their frustrations with it."

His frustration is clearly with the coaching staff. Dunlap praised the organization and the front office.

"Obviously it's not the way I would have liked to go about things, but there's a lot of love and respect still for Cincinnati. And the front office team, they still communicate and reach out from time to time," Dunlap said. "I always think I'll be welcome back one day in like the ring of honor or whatever it is that they might invite me for, possibly for holding the records. Obviously, I'm still a Bengals fan until I play them and I support my guys on the team."

Gelb followed up by asking Dunlap if Bengals head coach Zac Taylor and defensive coordinator Lou Anarumo are the right coaches to build a winner in Cincinnati.

"I can't answer that question," he said. "I just know that they're committed to whatever their vision is, and it's clear that i was not one of those pieces. And it seems like A.J. (Green) and Geno's (Atkins) time is coming, too. I guess it's a changing of the guard. They want new faces."

To the bold parts, seems clear Dunlop understood he was not a part of that piece or vision and admitted his behavior had a negative impact on the team .  But nowhere have I seen or read anything that stated Dunlap did anything intentionally to get out of Cincinnati.  If you have a link for that please share.

My take from the above is that he had a hissy fit over being demoted.  That probably didn't sit well with the rest of the team or the staff. So he was gladly traded.

On March 18, 2022, Dunlap was released by the Seahawks.

[*jason*]

(05-11-2022, 06:51 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: No offense but what is your source on this?  I did some quick googling but can't find anything.

Here is what I found:

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/carlos-dunlap-reflects-on-break-up-with-bengals


To the last bold part, seems clear Dunlop understood he was not a part of that piece or vision.  But nowhere have I seen or read anything that stated Dunlap did anything intentionally to get out of Cincinnati.  If you have a link for that please share.

My take from the above is that he had a hissy fit over being demoted.  That probably didn't sit well with the rest of the team or the staff.

He put his house up for sale...

[George Cantstandya]

(05-11-2022, 07:11 PM)jason Wrote: He put his house up for sale...

Yeah close to the time he was traded after a sideline argument with a coach.  So again he threw a hissy fit then deleted the tweet about selling his house. So maybe he wasn't so serious about getting out of Cincinnati at the time.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/bengals-carlos-dunlap-house-for-sale-deleted-tweet-sideline-argument-coach

But given the above what a great team first player in 2020, not.

That aside he was a great player for the Bengals for 10 years. It's too bad things went the way they did at the end. But I don't think he tried to force his way out of Cincinnati. I think he just didn't fit in and realized it half way through the season when the team felt that he didn't fit in as well. In the end it worked out best for everyone.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 06:51 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote: No offense but what is your source on this?  I did some quick googling but can't find anything.

He told the Bengals he didn't have time for them.  I don't see how you could believe that he wanted to stay in Cincinnati after that.

Then he posted that his house was for sale.  You still think he was trying to stay with the Bengals at that point?

We can go round in circles about how intentional his actions were (no player is going to admit to pitching a fit to get kicked off a team), but you have to acknowledge that it got him exactly what he wanted from the point he got buried at third string.

[George Cantstandya]

(05-11-2022, 08:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then he posted that his house was for sale. 

And then deleted the Tweet as posted above.  So maybe he had second thoughts. Also for all we know his social media shenanigans were an effort to convince the coaches to put him back in the starting lineup. His “I don’t got time for this.” quote was from when he was demoted and shared a picture of the depth chart.  That doesn't necessarily prove that he was intentionally trying to force his way out of Cincinnati.  It could very well be just a sign of frustration.

We can guess what his intentions were all day long.  But until he flat out says he was trying to force his way out of Cincinnati in the middle of the 2020 season there is no proof that he did those things intentionally to be traded or released.

Anyway the defense didn't get significantly worse after he was traded.  But if we are talking culture, it seems an unhappy bad apple was removed.  That's not an insult to Dunlap, he is a great player, but it seems he wasn't a fit for the current Bengals team.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2022, 09:06 PM)George Cantstandya Wrote:  But if we are talking culture, it seems an unhappy bad apple was removed.  

That is not the point.

The point was that an "unhappy bad apple" was created by Zac's staff.  Dunlap was never a problem under Lewis or Pete Carroll.

If someone cut off your hand and then bandaged the wound would you be talking about how awesome he was because he bandaged your  wound?

Dunlap played less than 800 snaps for the Seahawks, but recorded 13.5 sacks and 28 QB hits.  For comparisons sake Sam Hubbard played 877 snaps last year and had 7.5 sacks and 17 QB hits.  Los was playing more passing downs as a rush specialist, but his production was still very impressive.  Our pass rush could have used a guy like that.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-12-2022, 12:19 AM)fredtoast Wrote: That is not the point.

The point was that an "unhappy bad apple" was created by Zac's staff.  Dunlap was never a problem under Lewis or Pete Carroll.

If someone cut off your hand and then bandaged the wound would you be talking about how awesome he was because he bandaged your  wound?

Dunlap played less than 800 snaps for the Seahawks, but recorded 13.5 sacks and 28 QB hits.  For comparisons sake Sam Hubbard played 877 snaps last year and had 7.5 sacks and 17 QB hits.  Los was playing more passing downs as a rush specialist, but his production was still very impressive.  Our pass rush could have used a guy like that.

And Dunlap is unemployed he was such a locker room guy. Dunlap did not want to play in their system

[*bfine32*]

(05-12-2022, 12:24 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: And Dunlap is unemployed he was such a locker room guy. Dunlap did not want to play in their system

Fred's talking out of both sides of his mouth:

"It's not a culture Zac's building; it's because the players are better, so he gets no credit"

"Zac demoted one of our better players in the name of culture, so he gets no credit"

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2022, 12:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: "Zac demoted one of our better players in the name of culture, so he gets no credit"

Who said anything about Dunlap being demoted "in the name of culture"?

Generally there is a cadre of posters explaining how shitty Dunlap was playing and how he was hurting our defense on the field.

Are you admitting that Dunlap did not deserve to be demoted based on how he was playing?

[fredtoast]

(05-12-2022, 12:24 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: And Dunlap is unemployed

I don't doubt that his poor behavior in Cincinnati is costing him now.

Over the final 4 weeks of last season Dunlap was 2nd in the league in Sacks (7) and Tackles-For-Loss (7), 3rd in QB Hits (9), and added 2 Passes Defended and a Forced Fumble. 

With the concentration on rushing the passer going up a guy like Dunlap will play somewhere next year.  It will be interesting to see how much he gets paid.

[Leon]

this whole culture thing is kind of funny. zac was a horrible enough coach that he earned a top 5 pick in back to back years netting a franchise qb and a game changing wr. the culture shift is a result of landing 2 studs that have changed the direction of this franchise, and it was zac's ineptitude that led to that, so in a way i guess he is responsible for it in the same way someone is responsible for getting rich by wondering around aimlessly in a shit filled sewer and finding a treasure chest full of diamonds.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-12-2022, 05:20 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: this whole culture thing is kind of funny. zac was a horrible enough coach that he earned a top 5 pick in back to back years netting a franchise qb and a game changing wr. the culture shift is a result of landing 2 studs that have changed the direction of this franchise, and it was zac's ineptitude that led to that, so in a way i guess he is responsible for it in the same way someone is responsible for getting rich by wondering around aimlessly in a shit filled sewer and finding a treasure chest full of diamonds.

Well somebody approved he doubled his salary and got a new 5 year deal. I guess Belicheck got lucky with Brady as well because they (Pats) aren’t much w/o him.

[*bfine32*]

(05-12-2022, 12:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Who said anything about Dunlap being demoted "in the name of culture"?

Generally there is a cadre of posters explaining how shitty Dunlap was playing and how he was hurting our defense on the field.

Are you admitting that Dunlap did not deserve to be demoted based on how he was playing?

Of course he deserved to be demoted based on how he was playing. But often we see young coaches afraid to challenge the established veteran; because there's a chance they'll react as childishly as Carlos did. Zac made it know to the locker room. "No free passes".

Now that I've plainly answered my view on Carlos' demotion; why do you think he was demoted?

[Mgbrown66]

Dunlap was undisciplined, time and time again. he was demoted. While Hubbard is not the pash rusher Carlos was, he does his job.

[Leon]

(05-12-2022, 05:28 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Well somebody approved he doubled his salary and got a new 5 year deal. I guess Belicheck got lucky with Brady as well because they (Pats) aren’t much w/o him.

you mean the same front office that extended marvin after every embarrassing playoff loss. you'll have to excuse me if i don't give that the same level of merit you do. and yes, belichick hit the lottery of all lotteries with brady. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-12-2022, 05:34 PM)Mgbrown66 Wrote: Dunlap was undisciplined, time and time again.   he was demoted.   While Hubbard is not the pash rusher Carlos was, he does his job.

We don't have a D-lineman on this team that is as physically gifted as CL was in his prime.