Stability...its boring but its better than the alternative

[Se ky bengal]

(12-02-2015, 03:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: If you have a good QB and need to build around him, teams will be patient. If you don't have a good QB, teams act fast to rectify it. 

If Anderson, Hoyer, Weeden, Quinn or Manziel were good...the Browns would have stuck with them and coaches longer trying to build something. 
But they aren't good. So they moved on. 

Now, this new ownership that forced Manziel on Pettine is different. That shouldn't be on him. Very similar to how the Titans thrust Vince Young on Jeff Fisher and set that franchise back from their usual 9-7 pace and ended Fisher's run there. 

I totally agree!! 

[*Synric*]

(12-02-2015, 03:05 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It all comes back to QB anymore.

Go find a QB first. The league has made it so the whole "sitting" for a year is irrelevant. 

Besides, Browns have had a solid OL for 3-5 years. The Defense had been pretty good over those stretches. They got good RB play some years and had good WR play others. 
But it all comes back to their QBs being Brandon Weeden, Jake Delhomme, Derrek Anderson and Johnny Football. 

It's not just QBs with the browns though. They have whiffed on ALOT of draft picks and most of their talented players are leaving. But your right about QB being important to build around look at Oakland this season and Derek Carr in a couple years the Raiders are going to be a force in the AFC.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-02-2015, 04:11 PM)Synric Wrote: It's not just QBs with the browns though. They have whiffed on ALOT of draft picks and most of their talented players are leaving. But your right about QB being important to build around look at Oakland this season and Derek Carr in a couple years the Raiders are going to be a force in the AFC.

But it starts there. If they hit even a little bit on Weeden, Quinn or Manziel, they could afford to stockpile talent at other positions. But they are in a constant state of flux. 
If any of those first round QBs gave them what McCown had been giving them, their outlook would be a lot different now. 

[Shake n Blake]

Meh. People forget that Mike Brown was also very patient in the 90's. Back then, his patience allowed Dave Shula to lose 50 games faster than any coach in NFL history. The reason Shula set that record was because any other team would've fired him much sooner. He was so patient with Coslet that Bruce had fire himself. He gave Bratkowski 10 years when he should've been canned after his 7th season.

So sometimes the patience has paid off, other times it's really set this team back. Patience and stability is only good if you have good coaches/players.

The Browns are the polar opposite of Mike Brown. They're too impatient. That said, I don't think they've ever hired any guys that were worthy of patience.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-02-2015, 04:15 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: But it starts there. If they hit even a little bit on Weeden, Quinn or Manziel, they could afford to stockpile talent at other positions. But they are in a constant state of flux. 
If any of those first round QBs gave them what McCown had been giving them, their outlook would be a lot different now. 

If I ran the Browns, I'd stop drafting QB's and use those picks to keep building the lines while signing servicable QB's in FA. Once the team looks semi-competitive, THEN draft a QB.

There aren't any QB's capable of fixing that mess on their own. It's just setting these young QBs up to fail.

[Derrick]

(12-02-2015, 02:32 PM)tigerseye Wrote: I know when a team is that messed up it can be depressing (so to speak) to the fans because it is so hard to fix and takes alot of time ,even if you are doing things correctly. But at least they don't have players abandoning ship left and right ,like what we went through ,years back. At least not yet. Sucks to be them.

The stage is set for the Bengals to take the Browns lightly and lay another egg like they did with the Texans. My hunch is that they will not lay an egg, but their forty plus years history has me anxious nonetheless.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-02-2015, 10:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If I ran the Browns, I'd stop drafting QB's and use those picks to keep building the lines while signing servicable QB's in FA. Once the team looks semi-competitive, THEN draft a QB.

There aren't any QB's capable of fixing that mess on their own. It's just setting these young QBs up to fail.

The OL has been okay for a long time.
Joe Thomas and Alex Mack are among the best at their positions. 
They've gotten decent enough guard play over the years.
The OL excuse is just that, an excuse. 

What about the years they had a good defense?
What was the excuse then?

If they even had a remotely good QB at any step of the game the last 10 years, they would have had more than one "almost" year. 
Draft your QB build around him. Carr was doomed to fail in Oakland because he had no weapons and their OL sucked.
One draft later....oh look at that...

Minnesota got their QB. Now they need to build the OL. The rest is falling into place around him

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-02-2015, 09:57 AM)sonofstat Wrote: by the way I realise this particular change is driven by the latest injury to McCown but its a more general point about trusting your decision making and direction as an organisation.

They chose to draft Manziel, they chose to flip/flop their named starters, they still potentially will go into next years draft not clear which way they are going

If Manziel has not played himself out of Cleveland yet, he will soon.

And by "play", I mean it in terms of acting.  No, I don't think he has played poorly on purpose, but I think that as soon as Dallas passed on him in the draft, that text to the Cleveland GM about "Let's wreck the league" was pure postering.  

He had a plan from Day 1 that he would get out of Cleveland and end up with Jerry Jones where he could replace Romo.  Does anyone really think he wanted to be in Cleveland?  Does anyone think he partied without thinking that pics/video could make it back to his team, violating the terms of his rehabilitation probation?  He isn't dumb, but he is a rat.  

The sad thing is, the plan is working.  

[Shake n Blake]

(12-03-2015, 12:10 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The OL has been okay for a long time.
Joe Thomas and Alex Mack are among the best at their positions. 
They've gotten decent enough guard play over the years.
The OL excuse is just that, an excuse. 

What about the years they had a good defense?
What was the excuse then?

If they even had a remotely good QB at any step of the game the last 10 years, they would have had more than one "almost" year. 
Draft your QB build around him. Carr was doomed to fail in Oakland because he had no weapons and their OL sucked.
One draft later....oh look at that...

Minnesota got their QB. Now they need to build the OL. The rest is falling into place around him

You might have more of a point with Carr than Teddy. The Vikings (AP and the D in particular) are carrying Teddy rather than vice versa. Carr has been fantastic, but they did bring in a solid HC along with Amari Cooper and Crabtree. They're only 5-6 though, and it's pretty clear they have some major needs after this season. Despite how well Carr has played, they're struggling to stay in the playoff hunt. 

A QB can't do it by himself and I think the Browns would be better off solidifying their roster unless they run into a "can't miss" Luck/Newton top of the draft type of QB.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(12-03-2015, 01:45 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You might have more of a point with Carr than Teddy. The Vikings (AP and the D in particular) are carrying Teddy rather than vice versa. Carr has been fantastic, but they did bring in a solid HC along with Amari Cooper and Crabtree. They're only 5-6 though, and it's pretty clear they have some major needs after this season. Despite how well Carr has played, they're struggling to stay in the playoff hunt. 

A QB can't do it by himself and I think the Browns would be better off solidifying their roster unless they run into a "can't miss" Luck/Newton top of the draft type of QB.

Teddy gets murdered because the FO is married to Kalil at LT and injuries forced the unready Clemmings into action and took out their good starting center. Guard spots are a mess. But 2 decent linemen in this draft and they are cooking. And in all honesty, Zim invested all his premium picks into the defense so far...so it's basically Teddy, Diggs and Peterson by themselves.

You can't wait 5-10 between drafting a QB. If you think you have a shot at a guy to build around, you take it. 

[PV Bengal]

(12-03-2015, 01:55 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Teddy gets murdered because the FO is married to Kalil at LT and injuries forced the unready Clemmings into action and took out their good starting center. Guard spots are a mess. But 2 decent linemen in this draft and they are cooking. And in all honesty, Zim invested all his premium picks into the defense so far...so it's basically Teddy, Diggs and Peterson by themselves.

You can't wait 5-10 between drafting a QB. If you think you have a shot at a guy to build around, you take it. 

So, essentially, this entire discussion boils down to "What came first, the "chicken" or the "egg"?

And while I certainly understand the issues, IMHO it all really comes dowm to a franchise having a "long term plan". The Bengals certainly didn't have one in the 90s ... and we all know how THAT turned out. The Clowns don't have one now (and haven't had one for a while) and we can cerainly see how that's working.

So the real key is having a plan. And while "plan" can be viewed as a "four letter word", it is the ONLY place to start. Ownership has to hire the right coaching staff and the right personnel people and they need to give this group enough time to implement the plan.

With 7 draft picks per year and a 53 man roster, it takes a lot of time to build a winner ... assuming that the franchise DRAFTS well. That's how all of the successful franchises do it ... have a plan and draft to the plan.

[Bengal Dude]

(12-02-2015, 09:53 AM)sonofstat Wrote: "If Austin Davis starts Sunday, he is 15th Browns QB to start vs. Marvin Lewis Bengals in 26 games"  Geoff Hobson

That's a ridiculous stat.  How can you consistently win with a revolving door at QB/Head coach?

I know at times the conservative nature of Mike Brown/M Lewis has frustrated me but there's a lot to be said for sticking with your vision and the people you hired or drafted.  Just changing things up every 5 minutes never seems to work out and every change brings another rebuilding cycle of hiring /firing.

Apart from injury cover (Fitzmagic) Marvin will probably only have had 2 QB's in Palmer and Dalton by the time he is done as head coach...dread to think how many Browns QB's he'll have faced by the time he is done.

Stability is a double edged sword. The Browns do go about everything wrong. Pretty much draft franchise QB every other year, they've had 7 HCs and 1 interim HC, and a number of GM/Presidents. There is no patience there. Cleveland is a place where they expect the parity of the league to play into effect and reward them right off the bat. I can see Haslam cleaning house after this season and starting over...again.

However, being too stable can also be hazardous. Look at Mike Brown when was in full control before 2011. He would change very little and would expect things to click at some point.

[Se ky bengal]

(12-02-2015, 10:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So sometimes the patience has paid off, other times it's really set this team back. Patience and stability is only good if you have good coaches/players.

The Browns are the polar opposite of Mike Brown. They're too impatient. That said, I don't think they've ever hired any guys that were worthy of patience.

This wish I could REP this more. Not many top quality coaches want to go Cleveland. Then if they did happen to get a top notch coach,are they going to give him time to turn it around? I don't think Haslem will. The fans deserve that chance.  

[Bengal Dude]

(12-03-2015, 06:12 PM)Se ky bengal Wrote: This wish I could REP this more. Not many top quality coaches want to go Cleveland. Then if they did happen to get a top notch coach,are they going to give him time to turn it around? I don't think Haslem will. The fans deserve that chance.  

I don't think they're smart enough to hire quality coaches. Bruce Arians wanted the job, but they passed on him. Cleveland has become so depressing that their last coaching search was pitiful. I think Pettine wasn't a serious contender at first, but then other people left and he became the only option.

It also doesn't help that the GM is a moron and fights with the head coach. Haslam needs to clean house, bring in a worthy name, give him the HC/GM or president title, keep his nose out of football operations, and go from there.

[CageTheBengal]

(12-03-2015, 06:17 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I don't think they're smart enough to hire quality coaches. Bruce Arians wanted the job, but they passed on him. Cleveland has become so depressing that their last coaching search was pitiful. I think Pettine wasn't a serious contender at first, but then other people left and he became the only option.

It also doesn't help that the GM is a moron and fights with the head coach. Haslam needs to clean house, bring in a worthy name, give him the HC/GM or president title, keep his nose out of football operations, and go from there.

Isn't that what they did with Mike Holmgrem though?

I was a little nervous because I thought they were finally going to build something in Cleveland when they gave him the keys. I can't really remember how that ended though. Probably wasn't pretty considering the franchise. That probably is still their best bet. I'm not even sure how they're going to lure anyone like that back into their fold though.

[Thundercloud]

When you think of the Bengals' drafting of quarterbacks, it's really pretty good. Think in terms of these names in a forty year timespan: Cook, who was a towering talent, cut short by injury; Anderson, a Super Bowl quarterback who should be in the Hall of Fame; Esiason, a Super Bowl quarterback, and quality leader; Carson Palmer, one of the most talented passers you will ever see, and who might have led us to the Super Bowl but for the injury in 2005; Andy Dalton, still developing, piling up wins and leading us to the playoffs again for the fifth straight year.

Yeah, we've had a few whiffs in there, like Jack Thompson, Klingler, Akili Smith, but when I think of some of the other franchises, and their struggles at finding THE MAN at quarterback, I think we've made some good choices.

Hopefully we're winding up to take to another level this year.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-03-2015, 05:56 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Stability is a double edged sword. The Browns do go about everything wrong. Pretty much draft franchise QB every other year, they've had 7 HCs and 1 interim HC, and a number of GM/Presidents. There is no patience there. Cleveland is a place where they expect the parity of the league to play into effect and reward them right off the bat. I can see Haslam cleaning house after this season and starting over...again.

However, being too stable can also be hazardous. Look at Mike Brown when was in full control before 2011. He would change very little and would expect things to click at some point.

Yes and what was the stat they put up on MNF ? Like 4 new OC's and 3 new DC's in the last 5 years or something ? Change for changes sake does no good.

[kevin]

(12-02-2015, 09:53 AM)sonofstat Wrote: "If Austin Davis starts Sunday, he is 15th Browns QB to start vs. Marvin Lewis Bengals in 26 games"  Geoff Hobson

That's a ridiculous stat.  How can you consistently win with a revolving door at QB/Head coach?

I know at times the conservative nature of Mike Brown/M Lewis has frustrated me but there's a lot to be said for sticking with your vision and the people you hired or drafted.  Just changing things up every 5 minutes never seems to work out and every change brings another rebuilding cycle of hiring /firing.

Apart from injury cover (Fitzmagic) Marvin will probably only have had 2 QB's in Palmer and Dalton by the time he is done as head coach...dread to think how many Browns QB's he'll have faced by the time he is done.

and...there is nothing wrong with 5 straight play-off seasons....only Broncos, Packers and Patriots will do this also.  That is good company to be in. 

Then there is Georgia who just fired a winning coach who is sending more players to the NFL than anybody. Georgia wants National Championships, which is a good goal but maybe not why you fire a winning coach. ....The Dayton Flyers in basketball once fired coach Don Donaher because Dayton wanted to be in the Top 20 every year. For Dayton that was not a realistic goal.  Small Dayton is the type team that sometimes may make the NCAA and in rare seasons go deep in the NCAA as a Cinderella team.  To fire a great coach such as Donaher who was much respected by John Wooden and Bob Knight was a small school with goals that were way to high and impossible. Certainly firing Donoher never put Dayton in the Top 20 every year. ....These are examples of strange changes. 

Now back to Bengals.....Coach Lewis took over the worst franchise in the NFL and has taken them to 7 play-off seasons in 13 years, over 50 % in the play-offs.  Not bad for a franchise that that went 12 straight seasons without play-offs and often in last place. The last 5 years it has been 100 % of the time in the play-offs. ....I'm including 2015 because Bengals are going......Now quarterback Andy Dalton and receiver AJ Green are having 5 play-off seasons in their first 5 years and that also is 100 % .......If that is boring, if stability as opposed to constant change is boring, then give me boring. .....politicians run on the catch word CHANGE.  High School students have always graduated with speeches of changing the world. Change is over rated. More important is success, which often is some needed change for the future mixed with the tried and true people and systems that have created success and stability that makes Wall Street Bullish. ....The Bengals are Bullish and only Broncos, Packers and Patriots are stringing winning seasons together as The Bengals. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-02-2015, 09:53 AM)sonofstat Wrote: "If Austin Davis starts Sunday, he is 15th Browns QB to start vs. Marvin Lewis Bengals in 26 games"  Geoff Hobson

That's a ridiculous stat.  How can you consistently win with a revolving door at QB/Head coach?

I know at times the conservative nature of Mike Brown/M Lewis has frustrated me but there's a lot to be said for sticking with your vision and the people you hired or drafted.  Just changing things up every 5 minutes never seems to work out and every change brings another rebuilding cycle of hiring /firing.

Apart from injury cover (Fitzmagic) Marvin will probably only have had 2 QB's in Palmer and Dalton by the time he is done as head coach...dread to think how many Browns QB's he'll have faced by the time he is done.

(12-02-2015, 09:57 AM)sonofstat Wrote: by the way I realise this particular change is driven by the latest injury to McCown but its a more general point about trusting your decision making and direction as an organisation.

They chose to draft Manziel, they chose to flip/flop their named starters, they still potentially will go into next years draft not clear which way they are going

I like your original posts cause it is very true that the Browns are a very poorly ran organization while we have
much more capable people here. But it is hardly boring for us, we have a very entertaining team, it would really
suck to be a Browns fan, man, that would suck.

[*Nately120*]

(12-03-2015, 05:56 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: However, being too stable can also be hazardous. Look at Mike Brown when was in full control before 2011. He would change very little and would expect things to click at some point.

Not to mention Mike Brown wasn't going to change anything after 2010 (er, right?).  He was going to keep everything the same and we'd roll into 2011 with Marvin, Palmer, Ocho, Bratkowski, Mike making all the decisions, and so on and so forth.